Zimmerman the Black-hating racist

[TheSkeptic]

For the record I'm taking the "no concussion, no s ches, fixed with basic first aid and a band aid = scratch" definition. I'm not sure about the medical terms but to me that's more like falling out of a tree and scraping something levels of seriousness than a terrible beatdown.

[Yonivore]

Still doesn't mean his life was in danger.

That's your opinion.

The law only requires Zimmerman to believe he was in danger of serious bodily injury or death.

The paramedics would've sent him to the hospital if that was the case. I won't claim to be an expert here but I'm pretty sure that EMTs and Paramedics don't let someone go to the police station for questioning if there's concerns about a concussion (let alone one that could have made him a vegetable for life) and/or a need for s ches and what have you.

Having been one, and somewhat of an expert (albeit some years back) I can tell you Paramedics have absolutely no power to force an injured person to seek medical care if that persons refuses medical treatment.

I find that significant because Zimmerman's the one who said that he was receiving and had already been on the receiving end of a horrific beating by the time he pulled the trigger to save himself.

I don't find it odd at all and, inserting the words "by the time he pulled the trigger" exceed the scope of the law again. All Zimmerman has to claim, and I don't know what he's specifically said about the incident, is that he believed he would be killed or seriously injured if he didn't use deadly force. He doesn't have to claim he had already been seriously injured (or killed).

All a jury has to believe is that it was reasonable to believe that.

All that those photos prove is that there was an altercation which I don't think anyone has denied. Either Zimmerman didn't realize that his injuries weren't that serious and panicked or he's lying about what happened.

The injuries are consistent with the account attributed to Zimmerman, and the evidence known to the public.

No arguing here since I'm just curious, but is this a common saying or just something you personally use? I'm used to seeing "Okie dokie"...

Heard it somewhere.

I was talking about Trayvon's phone records which showed that he was on the phone according to what I've read.

Well, since the altercation appears to be what ended the phone call to his girlfriend, I'd say you're right, he didn't have time to run from point 3 to point 5 before being shot.

But, the call with his girlfriend didn't end when Zimmerman was on the phone with police as he sat stationary at point #3 and exclaimed Martin was running and I doubt it ended before Zimmerman got off the phone with police 1 minute and 59 seconds later. Plenty of time for Martin to run a damn long way.

How'd he end up at point #5 at the end of his conversation with his girlfriend?

[Yonivore]

For the record I'm taking the "no concussion, no s ches, fixed with basic first aid and a band aid = scratch" definition. I'm not sure about the medical terms but to me that's more like falling out of a tree and scraping something levels of seriousness than a terrible beatdown.

You're still conflating the seriousness of the external injuries with the potential seriousness of the injuries Zimmerman believed he would endure if Martin continued to beat him.

What if, instead of beating him, breaking his nose, and cutting his head up a bit, Martin had been strangling him? The external injuries from a strangulation interrupted by deadly force would have appeared even less traumatic than what Zimmerman received.

[Blake]

conflating!

[TheSkeptic]

That's your opinion.

The law only requires Zimmerman to believe he was in danger of serious bodily injury or death.

Not exactly. The law seems to say that a person has to have reasonable fear of serious bodily injury or death.

Having been one, and somewhat of an expert (albeit some years back) I can tell you Paramedics have absolutely no power to force an injured person to seek medical care if that persons refuses medical treatment.

But if Zimmerman is suffering from a concussion or otherwise showing signs that he's in need of serious medical help I would think they'd at least take note of the fact that s ches/emergency care were required before he refused right?

I don't find it odd at all and, inserting the words "by the time he pulled the trigger" exceed the scope of the law again. All Zimmerman has to claim, and I don't know what he's specifically said about the incident, is that he believed he would be killed or seriously injured if he didn't use deadly force. He doesn't have to claim he had already been seriously injured (or killed).

I'm sure his actions are subject to the "reasonable person" standard. That's why he's going to court to prove that his use of deadly force was justified. If him saying he believed is enough then there's no need for a trial and they might as well open up an assassin's guild in Florida.

All a jury has to believe is that it was reasonable to believe that.

Not exactly. The jury has to believe that his use of deadly force was justified and therefore self-defense in the case of SYG. If they think that it isn't self defense they also have to evaluate whether or not Murder 2 as opposed to a lesser charge is an appropriate sentence.

The injuries are consistent with the account attributed to Zimmerman, and the evidence known to the public.

No they're not. It was Zimmerman who said his head was being beaten repeatedly into the sidewalk and we know that isn't what happened. We were also told that Zimmerman suffered serious injuries as a result of his being beaten up and we haven't seen evidence of that either. No s ches, no concussion, treated at the scene.

Heard it somewhere.

I see.

Well, since the altercation appears to be what ended the phone call to his girlfriend, I'd say you're right, he didn't have time to run from point 3 to point 5 before being shot.

Exactly.

But, the call with his girlfriend didn't end when Zimmerman was on the phone with police as he sat stationary at point #3 and exclaimed Martin was running and I doubt it ended before Zimmerman got off the phone with police 1 minute and 59 seconds later. Plenty of time for Martin to run a damn long way.

If he was staying with his father but wasn't completely familiar with the neighbourhood he could've slowed down to make sure he knew where he was going as well. Maybe he figured he was safe and wanted to extend his conversation. Maybe he wasn't expecting to be shot in a gated community.

If Zimmerman had a right to be walking on the sidewalk and "following" someone, there's no reason why Trayvon couldn't walk slowly and talk on the phone. He still wasn't doing anything criminal.

How'd he end up at point #5 at the end of his conversation with his girlfriend?

How did Zimmerman end up at point #5 when he was supposedly going back to his truck?

Tbh I would assume that both Trayvon and Zimmerman got there on foot.

[TheSkeptic]

You're still conflating the seriousness of the external injuries with the potential seriousness of the injuries Zimmerman believed he would endure if Martin continued to beat him.

Because Zimmerman's the one who said his injuries were serious. So serious that he had no choice but to shoot the teenager he had been following.

What if, instead of beating him, breaking his nose, and cutting his head up a bit, Martin had been strangling him? The external injuries from a strangulation interrupted by deadly force would have appeared even less traumatic than what Zimmerman received.

And we would've seen evidence of that if it had happened and Zimmerman actually had been strangled.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

It makes sense that the prosecution would find a disconnect between one getting one's head repeatedly beaten against the concrete and a cut that does not even require s ches.

This notion combined with Zimmerman's withholding of financial information during the bail proceedings does paint a picture of someone willing to use deception to avoid incarceration.

Really though we are arguing about something that none of us have the information on. I am sure that a medical examiner looked at Zimmerman and Martin's body immediately after the shooting and its that report that matters.

Does anybody have that report?

[The_Worlds_finest]

The law only requires Zimmerman to believe he was in danger of serious bodily injury or death.


Has zimmerman trained in any self defense arts? He wanted to be a cop..

[vander]

It makes sense that the prosecution would find a disconnect between one getting one's head repeatedly beaten against the concrete and a cut that does not even require s ches.

This notion combined with Zimmerman's withholding of financial information during the bail proceedings does paint a picture of someone willing to use deception to avoid incarceration.

Really though we are arguing about something that none of us have the information on. I am sure that a medical examiner looked at Zimmerman and Martin's body immediately after the shooting and its that report that matters.

Does anybody have that report?

NBC has it, and they're reporting clear evidence of racism in the gunshot wound. whereas the injuries sustained by the white Hispanic were possibly self inflicted as part of a grand evil racist scheme.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I don't believe paranoia is justification for homicide. I can put that in bold too if that makes it more compelling.

[mavs>spurs]

trigger happy and over zealous, would have made a fine cop

[FuzzyLumpkins]

NBC has it, and they're reporting clear evidence of racism in the gunshot wound. whereas the injuries sustained by the white Hispanic were possibly self inflicted as part of a grand evil racist scheme.

Do you normally display emotional angst in this manner?

Unless its a report or interview directly from those that are a part of the actual crime and its subsequent investigation then who cares? NBC being asshats does not exonerate Zimmerman any more than it implicates him.

[Yonivore]

Not exactly. The law seems to say that a person has to have reasonable fear of serious bodily injury or death.

Whether it was reasonable will be determined by the court. But, if that's over what we're arguing, this isn't a 2nd Degree Murder.

But if Zimmerman is suffering from a concussion or otherwise showing signs that he's in need of serious medical help I would think they'd at least take note of the fact that s ches/emergency care were required before he refused right?

I haven't seen the medics reports but, yes, they would indicate whether or not he refused treatment for wounds the judged required further treatment. In most cases, we would ask the person to sign a refusal for transport.

There's no indication Zimmerman refused treatment; just that he declined to be taken to the hospital.

I've seen people in the middle of a heart attack refuse transport. They usually change their mind or the process progresses to a point where they're no longer able to make that judgment and we transport anyway.

No one is claiming Zimmerman suffered life-threatening injuries and I wouldn't have any heartburn over a patient refusing transport over similar injuries. I've seen worse in car accidents and, even though I was concerned about closed head injuries, I had no power to force the injured into the back of an ambulance and take them to the hospital.

At best, I would advise them to seek medical attention on their own, telling them the signs and symptoms of the onset of a closed head injury (or whatever other more serious condition could underlie the type injury they presented).

I'm sure his actions are subject to the "reasonable person" standard. That's why he's going to court to prove that his use of deadly force was justified. If him saying he believed is enough then there's no need for a trial and they might as well open up an assassin's guild in Florida.

No, he's going to court because a prosecutor has charged him with murder. No reasonableness standard there.

Not exactly. The jury has to believe that his use of deadly force was justified and therefore self-defense in the case of SYG. If they think that it isn't self defense they also have to evaluate whether or not Murder 2 as opposed to a lesser charge is an appropriate sentence.

And they do that by making the determination a reasonable person would have acted in the same manner, under similar cir stances. To be quite honest, I don't know where SYG comes into play unless the defense is claiming Zimmerman had no obligation stay in his truck and no duty to retreat in the moments after he encountered Martin but before Martin had him pinned to the ground and, therefore, no longer able to retreat.

No they're not. It was Zimmerman who said his head was being beaten repeatedly into the sidewalk...

Did he say sidewalk? I know I've been saying that for quite a while because I seem to recall reading that early on but, I'm not sure I've actually read where Zimmerman claims he was having his head beaten against a sidewalk.

...and we know that isn't what happened.

Again, where did Zimmerman actually say that?

We were also told that Zimmerman suffered serious injuries as a result of his being beaten up and we haven't seen evidence of that either. No s ches, no concussion, treated at the scene.

By whom were you told that? Certainly, if the events were occurring as is being attributed to Zimmerman, there's every reason to believe Zimmerman reasonably believed he was in the process of being seriously injured or killed.

From Zimmerman's family, lawyers, and the report detailing his story I think.

You heard d'okie dokie from the Zimmerman camp?

Exactly.

Wow! We agree!

If he was staying with his father but wasn't completely familiar with the neighbourhood he could've slowed down to make sure he knew where he was going as well.

You're imputing a lot of things that can't be known. I believe we do know Trayvon Martin was frequently at his father's condominium and it's probably safe to assume he knew it well enough to know how to get home from point #3.

Maybe he figured he was safe and wanted to extend his conversation.

Then he would have seen George Zimmerman walk from Twin Trees to Retreat View Circle, as he talked to police, and told them he was walking to Retreat View Circle to get the address off the front of the condominium there. Martin would then have to figure he was still safe and want to extend his conversation until Zimmerman walked back to the courtyard, spotted him, attacked him, and started beating his fists with his face as a pretext to pull his gun out and shoot him.

Maybe he wasn't expecting to be shot in a gated community.

I know I wouldn't be but, I wouldn't have run in the first place. And, I certainly wouldn't have "hung around."

Lot of maybes there Skeptic...a lot of maybes that assume a lot of actions there is no evidence to support.

If Zimmerman had a right to be walking on the sidewalk and "following" someone, there's no reason why Trayvon couldn't walk slowly and talk on the phone. He still wasn't doing anything criminal.

You're right. But, Zimmerman clearly tells police he's lost sight of the person before walking to Retreat View Circle. But, I think you're absolutely right that Trayvon did not sense he was in danger and, therefore, either stayed in the area where the altercation took place or returned there after running.

But, I think it's safe to say that if Trayvon Martin took off running -- OR EVEN SLOWLY WALKING -- he would be way beyond point #5 in the 1 minute and 59 seconds it took Zimmerman to complete his phone call to police.

So, I think we're reaching agreement that Martin either hung around or returned to the spot where he died. It's progress.

How did Zimmerman end up at point #5 when he was supposedly going back to his truck?

If you listen to or read the transcripts of the 911 call, Zimmerman describes walking from Twin Trees to Retreat View Circle (presumably on the sidewalk connecting the two streets) and would walk right by point #5 on his way back to his truck.

Tbh I would assume that both Trayvon and Zimmerman got there on foot.

Another point of agreement.

But, to the point, if Martin was walking, running, or crawling past point #3 nearly 2 minutes before Zimmerman terminated the call with police, how do you explain him only reaching point #5 in that amount of time?

I say he either hung around there or returned there because, it doesn't make sense that it is as far as he could get if he were evading Zimmerman.

[TheSkeptic]

It makes sense that the prosecution would find a disconnect between one getting one's head repeatedly beaten against the concrete and a cut that does not even require s ches.

This notion combined with Zimmerman's withholding of financial information during the bail proceedings does paint a picture of someone willing to use deception to avoid incarceration.

Really though we are arguing about something that none of us have the information on. I am sure that a medical examiner looked at Zimmerman and Martin's body immediately after the shooting and its that report that matters.

Does anybody have that report?

Apparently the reports are out but I haven't been able to find the direct evidence.

From what I've read there was some evidence that Trayvon had been smoking weed within a month I think before his death and some stuff that indicated that Zimmerman had been taking medication for anxiety. Fresh photos showed some cuts on Zimmerman's face and Trayvon had a small laceration on his ring finger iirc. I'm not sure that it's got anything particularly new beyond that.

I've been looking and I can't seem to find a link to the articles I was reading. ABC and Huffington Post should have it covered though imo.

Edit: It's not the specific do ents but there are some police photos of Zimmerman at this link. I have to say I was wrong about the Police Department in this case.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...n_1539077.html

Or at least they seem to be from the police.

[Yonivore]

The law only requires Zimmerman to believe he was in danger of serious bodily injury or death.


Has zimmerman trained in any self defense arts? He wanted to be a cop..

I don't know but, that doesn't change his burden under the law covering justified use of force.

[Yonivore]

trigger happy and over zealous, would have made a fine cop

I think if he were trigger happy, he would have had his gun out long before he was pinned to the ground being beaten Mixed Martial Arts style.

By the sound of it Zimmerman didn't even consider his weapon until he believed he wasn't going to come out of the incident without serious bodily injury or being killed.

[vander]

Do you normally display emotional angst in this manner?

Unless its a report or interview directly from those that are a part of the actual crime and its subsequent investigation then who cares? NBC being asshats does not exonerate Zimmerman any more than it implicates him.

tbh: you're a pathetic tool unless you continue to question every single "self defense" killing in this country

NBC made this the blown up story that it is, and you (and many others) bit, hard.

[Th'Pusher]

So all of the evidence is not out, the prosecutor has seen all the evidence, Zimmerman has been charged with 2nd degree murder, yet Yoni is positive all evidence points to Zimmerman being innocent. Logical.

[TheSkeptic]

So all of the evidence is not out, the prosecutor has seen all the evidence, Zimmerman has been charged with 2nd degree murder, yet Yoni is positive all evidence points to Zimmerman being innocent. Logical.

Political reasons and overconfidence.

[Yonivore]

Because Zimmerman's the one who said his injuries were serious. So serious that he had no choice but to shoot the teenager he had been following.

You're going to have to source that statement because I've never heard Zimmerman claim his injuries were serious. In fact, I find it hard to believe Zimmerman had any capacity to assess the severity of his injuries until after the incident was over.

What Zimmerman defense claims, I believe, is he was getting the beat out of him and believed he would be seriously injured or killed if he didn't repel the attack.

And we would've seen evidence of that if it had happened and Zimmerman actually had been strangled.

But, I doubt they would look as severe as the actual injuries Zimmerman did suffer.

You can render a person unconscious with a choke hold that leaves no marks.

You're still confusing the seriousness of the injuries sustained being justification for shooting Martin with the belief serious injury or death was imminent if Zimmerman hadn't shot Martin.

Zimmerman's defense is that he believed he WOULD have been seriously injured or killed if he hadn't employed deadly force, not that he WAS seriously or mortally injured and, therefore, was justified in using deadly force.

[Th'Pusher]

Political reasons and overconfidence.

Really? With Yoni? Happy being a ing hack.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

http://www.axiomamnesia.com/TrayvonM...-do ents.pdf

Thats the reports Florida released.

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2012/im...in.autopsy.pdf

Thats the medical examiner's autopsy report.

[Yonivore]

Political reasons and overconfidence.

What are my political reasons?

Alan Dershowitz and I couldn't be further apart on the political spectrum yet, we both believe Zimmerman justifiably killed Martin in an act of self-defense.

The prosecution has yet to reveal one shred of evidence that supports 2nd Degree Murder and their probable cause affidavit was just a bunch of unsupported accusations.

[The_Worlds_finest]

What Zimmerman defense claims, I believe, is he was getting the beat out of him and believed he would be seriously injured or killed if he didn't repel the attack.

Which all goes back to any prior training.

[Yonivore]

Which all goes back to any prior training.

Why?