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  1. #201
    Veteran scott's Avatar
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    When Fox News calls a Republican out for dishonesty, you know they must be really full of .

    http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2012/...n-three-words/

  2. #202
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    The Media's 'Fact Check' Smokescreen
    Journalism: If media "fact checkers" are just impartial guardians of the truth, how come they got their own facts wrong about Paul Ryan's speech, and did so in a way that helped President Obama's re-election effort?

    Case in point was the rush of "fact check" stories claiming Ryan misled when he talked about a shuttered auto plant in his home state.

    Washington Post fact-checker Glenn Kessler posted a piece — "Ryan misleads on GM plant closing in hometown" — saying Ryan "appeared to suggest" that Obama was responsible for the closure of a GM plant in Janesville, Wis.

    "That's not true," Kessler said. "The plant was closed in December 2008, before Obama was sworn in."

    What's not true are Kessler's "facts." Ryan didn't suggest Obama was responsible for shuttering the plant. Instead, he correctly noted that Obama promised during the campaign that the troubled plant "will be here for another hundred years" if his policies were enacted.

    Also, the plant didn't close in December 2008. It was still producing cars until April 2009.

    An AP "fact check" also claimed that "the plant halted production in December 2008" even though the AP itself reported in April 2009 that the plant was only then "closing for good."

    CNN's John King made the same claim about that plant closure. But when CNN looked more carefully at the evidence, it — to its credit — concluded that what Ryan said was "true."

    Media fact-checkers also complained about Ryan's charge that Obama is cutting $716 billion from Medicare to fund ObamaCare. Not true, they said. Medicare's growth is just being slowed.

    But Obama achieves that slower growth by making real cuts in provider payments. And in any case, the media always and everywhere call a reduction in the rate of federal spending growth a "cut." So why suddenly charge Ryan with being misleading for using that same term?

    In any case, Obama himself admitted that he's doing what Ryan says. In a November 2009 interview with ABC News, reporter Jake Tapper said to Obama that "one-third of the funding comes from cuts to Medicare," to which Obama's response was: "Right."

    The rest of Ryan's alleged factual errors aren't errors at all; it's just that the media didn't like how he said it. But since when is it a fact-checker's job to decide how a politician should construct his arguments?

    This isn't to say that journalists shouldn't check facts. Of course they should.

    The problem is that the mainstream press is now abusing the "fact check" label, using it to more aggressively push a liberal agenda without feeling the need to provide any balance whatsoever. And, as the reaction to the Ryan speech shows, they are now blatantly using it to provide air support for Obama.

    Is it any wonder that soon after Ryan's speech ended, the Obama campaign rushed out an ad using the media's "fact check" stories as its source?

    http://news.investors.com/ibd-editor...tm?src=HPLNews

  3. #203
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    Fact-checking the factcheckers on Ryan’s speech; Update: “As president, I will lead an effort to retool plants like the GM facility in Janesville"

    http://hotair.com/archives/2012/08/3...-ryans-speech/

  4. #204
    Not Koolaid_Man Homeland Security's Avatar
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    When Fox News calls a Republican out for dishonesty, you know they must be really full of .

    http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2012/...n-three-words/
    Fox News employs several left-liberal columnists, I suppose, in order to provide plausible deniability about their rightward slant. The linked column would be an example of such; it repeats basically the same talking points as most left-liberal columnists did following the Ryan speech. The author is an unapologetic liberal Democrat.

    I've seen this "even Fox News" talking point six or seven places.

    Clearly you're a free thinker; you would never parrot whatever your tribal leaders tell you to like those obscurantist right-wingers do.

  5. #205
    selbstverständlich Agloco's Avatar
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    Fox News employs several left-liberal columnists, I suppose, in order to provide plausible deniability about their rightward slant. The linked column would be an example of such; it repeats basically the same talking points as most left-liberal columnists did following the Ryan speech. The author is an unapologetic liberal Democrat.

    I've seen this "even Fox News" talking point six or seven places.

    Clearly you're a free thinker; you would never parrot whatever your tribal leaders tell you to like those obscurantist right-wingers do.
    How bout this one?

    http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012...ntion-address/

  6. #206
    on instagram, str8 flexin DUNCANownsKOBE's Avatar
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    Fox News employs several left-liberal columnists, I suppose, in order to provide plausible deniability about their rightward slant. The linked column would be an example of such; it repeats basically the same talking points as most left-liberal columnists did following the Ryan speech. The author is an unapologetic liberal Democrat.

    I've seen this "even Fox News" talking point six or seven places.

    Clearly you're a free thinker; you would never parrot whatever your tribal leaders tell you to like those obscurantist right-wingers do.


    Fox News is leading a liberal conspiracy to slander Paul Ryan!

  7. #207
    Veteran Th'Pusher's Avatar
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    Just because Ryan's speech was written by professional speechwriters and heavily edited by lawyers to make sure he could score political points with his message without lying does not mean he is guiltless of attempting to deceive. The reason the media outlets and fact checkers picked up on it is not because they are liberal, but because anyone who has been paying attention found his omissions to be deceptive or hypocritical or both.

    Have Romney/Ryan come out to defend their position? If they truly thought the message was being misinterpreted, it seems they'd come out and defend the position. That of course would bring more scrutiny to Ryan's actual positions, which is not really what they want. Just call it what it is, muddying up the water and scoring political points in a political speech.

  8. #208
    Not Koolaid_Man Homeland Security's Avatar
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    Fox News is leading a liberal conspiracy to slander Paul Ryan!
    See, here's an example of why the extermination of secular Jews is necessary.

  9. #209
    Not Koolaid_Man Homeland Security's Avatar
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    Did you actually read that article? I don't think you would have posted it if you had read it.
    Last edited by Homeland Security; 08-31-2012 at 01:45 PM.

  10. #210
    Rising above the Fray spursncowboys's Avatar
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    http://www.buzzfeed.com/bensmith/rom...welfare-attack




    wow....

    "we are going to lie through our teeth, facts be damned, because winning at all costs is what we are all about".

    there is a reason this year has left me pissed off and cynical about the right wing in this country... and that pretty much is it in a nuts .
    'romney murdering a woman' ad can't even keep a straight face from that one.

  11. #211
    Not Koolaid_Man Homeland Security's Avatar
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    Just because Ryan's speech was written by professional speechwriters and heavily edited by lawyers to make sure he could score political points with his message without lying does not mean he is guiltless of attempting to deceive. The reason the media outlets and fact checkers picked up on it is not because they are liberal, but because anyone who has been paying attention found his omissions to be deceptive or hypocritical or both.

    Have Romney/Ryan come out to defend their position? If they truly thought the message was being misinterpreted, it seems they'd come out and defend the position. That of course would bring more scrutiny to Ryan's actual positions, which is not really what they want. Just call it what it is, muddying up the water and scoring political points in a political speech.
    The things the liberal "fact-checkers" made up were basically what they could think of given short notice. They weren't really inaccuracies. They come up with the "gotchas," get them on the blogs and broadcasts, and everyone on the blue tribe parrots them within hours.

    Whether or not they're factual is less important than getting the talking points out quick. If they had to wait 24 hours to do a thoughtful analysis, impressions of the speech already would have set in.

    You will see the same thing next week from the other side.

    A counterfactual that increases your power is true.

  12. #212
    Not Koolaid_Man Homeland Security's Avatar
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    It really is amazing to see how easy people are to control once the tribal mentality sets it. Hotair or Daily Kos could post literally anything as a "fact-check" and the respective tribes would parrot it as unassailable truth.

    I don't know why I bother bringing it up. I've already made up my mind on which side I control the marionette strings and which side gets killed.

  13. #213
    Not Koolaid_Man Homeland Security's Avatar
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    I guess I do it so at the end of the day I know you deserve what's coming.

  14. #214
    Veteran Th'Pusher's Avatar
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    The things the liberal "fact-checkers" made up were basically what they could think of given short notice. They weren't really inaccuracies. They come up with the "gotchas," get them on the blogs and broadcasts, and everyone on the blue tribe parrots them within hours.

    Whether or not they're factual is less important than getting the talking points out quick. If they had to wait 24 hours to do a thoughtful analysis, impressions of the speech already would have set in.

    You will see the same thing next week from the other side.

    A counterfactual that increases your power is true.
    I guess we can quibble over the le 'fact checkers', but I don't think the media or the Obama campaign would be doing their job well if they didn't point out Ryan's omissions in the speech and how blatantly disingenuous and hypocritical they were.

    Not everybody has to parse like Yoni. There are shades of grey.

  15. #215
    on instagram, str8 flexin DUNCANownsKOBE's Avatar
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    See, here's an example of why the extermination of secular Jews is necessary.
    Cool comeback!


    Those god damn liberal fact-checkers at Fox News!

  16. #216
    Just Right of Atilla the Hun Yonivore's Avatar
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    When Fox News calls a Republican out for dishonesty, you know they must be really full of .

    http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2012/...n-three-words/
    Fact: While Ryan tried to pin the downgrade of the United States’ credit rating on spending under President Obama, the credit rating was actually downgraded because Republicans threatened not to raise the debt ceiling.
    I don't recall his wording on this but, have we been upgraded? Didn't the debt ceiling get raised? And, if so, shouldn't the downgrade have been temporary or could there be something else -- such as a screwed up economy and no budget for 4 years?

    Fact: While Ryan blamed President Obama for the shut down of a GM plant in Janesville, Wisconsin, the plant was actually closed under President George W. Bush. Ryan actually asked for federal spending to save the plant, while Romney has criticized the auto industry bailout that President Obama ultimately enacted to prevent other plants from closing.
    He didn't blame Obama for the plant closing and, contrary to what is being reported the plant closed in April, 2009 but, that's not even germane to the point Ryan was making. He was criticizing Obama for standing at the plant in Janesville and, as a candidate, suggesting the plant would stay open for another 100 years if he were elected and implemented his policies.

    Fact: Though Ryan insisted that President Obama wants to give all the credit for private sector success to government, that isn't what the president said. Period.
    It pretty much is. Period. This president, as evidenced by his "Julia" nonsense believes government is the answer. in his "You didn't build it" comment, he principally mentions government functions of teachers, roads, bridges, etc... And, it wasn't the "You Didn't Build It" statement that created the meme -- That's just easier to say than, ""I'm always struck by people who think, `Well, it must be because I was just so smart.' There are a lot of smart people out there. `It must be because I worked harder than everybody else.' Let me tell you something: There are a whole bunch of hardworking people out there. If you were successful, somebody along the line gave you some help."

    That was the real insult. It offended everyone who ever spent years worrying about whether or not the risk they've taken by investing their entire life savings into a small business is going to pan out. It offended everyone who ever had an original idea and turned it into a thriving business. It offended anyone who every worked 20 hour days for months or years on end to make a business successful. And, it offended people who took little revenue from their business -- for years eating beans and rice -- so that they could plunk as much of their money into the business as possible.

    With the exception of friends and family, there is no one that helps a business get started without an expectation of something in return. Teacher teach for money, government provides roads and bridges for tax dollars (also paid by businesses and their owners), employees works for wages and benefits, investors invest for dividends, and customers shop because you offer the best value.

    A successful business owner had the idea, secured the money, invested the time and persuaded the investors, employees, and customers to engage the enterprise. There is no kind of help Obama mentioned that weren't available to unsuccessful businesses. None. So, whatever the he was talking about, it wasn't what made a successful business successful.

    scott, you're a businessman and you should know this better than anyone. Government costs you money. You pay fees and taxes to do business...government help isn't free and it particularly isn't free to small business

    Fact: Though Paul Ryan accused President Obama of taking $716 billion out of Medicare, the fact is that that amount was savings in Medicare reimbursement rates (which, incidentally, save Medicare recipients out-of-pocket costs, too) and Ryan himself embraced these savings in his budget plan.
    Ryan didn't embrace the cuts to pay for Obamacare and, besides, Ryan's cuts aren't in the Romney plan. Fact remains, Obama was going to reduce Medicare spending by $716 billion in order to put it towards his health care plan.

    Fox is wrong.

  17. #217
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    Romney’s RNC Speech Spent 202 Words On Foreign Policy, Made False And Misleading Claims

    1. Obama and America: “I will begin my presidency with a jobs tour. President Obama began with an apology tour. America, he said, had dictated to other nations. No Mr. President, America has freed other nations from dictators.”

    THE FACTS: The notion that Obama went on an “apology tour” has been repeatedly and conclusively debunked, though it remains a staple of Romney’s post-truth campaign. The “dictated” line is likely of a similar provenance, but there’s an irony to the second half of that sentence — Obama has “freed other nations from dictators,” as he helped form and lead an international coalition that toppled Muammar Qaddafi in Libya. Romney’s position on the Libya intervention, by contrast, was something of an incoherent muddle.

    2. Iran: “Every American was relieved the day President Obama gave the order, and Seal Team Six took out Osama bin Laden. But on another front, every American is less secure today because he has failed to slow Iran’s nuclear threat. In his first TV interview as president, he said we should talk to Iran. We’re still talking, and Iran’s centrifuges are still spinning.”

    THE FACTS: There’s a reason the President decided to talk to Iran — the Obama administration is quite aware of the consequences of a nuclear weapons-equipped Iran, if its leaders decide to go that route, and has determined that diplomacy presents the “best and most permanent” means of resolving the crisis. Moreover, the diplomatic approach has produced concrete dividends. While Iran hasn’t capitulated, signalling that America was willing to talk to Iran helped build international support for significantly stepped-up sanctions. Contra Romney, the new sanctions imposed by Obama’s coalition have unequivocally slowed Iran’s nuclear progress by limiting its ability to acquire critical materiel, according to the U.N. and the Pentagon. Perhaps that’s why, when they’re not hinting at starting a devastating war, Romney advisers and surrogates have been unable to differentiate their candidate’s policy from the status quo.

    3. Israel and Cuba: “President Obama has thrown allies like Israel under the bus, even as he has relaxed sanctions on Castro’s Cuba.”

    THE FACTS: The claim about Israel is utterly false; both stepped-up U.S. defense assistance and the statements of Israel’s own leaders testify to Obama’s record. As for Cuba, it’s true that Obama has relaxed restrictions on travel to Cuba, but that’s a good thing. The Cuba embargo is is an obviously failed policy with serious human costs, giving the Castro regime an excuse for the failures of communism while immiserating ordinary Cubans.

    4. Russia and Poland: “[Obama] abandoned our friends in Poland by walking away from our missile defense commitments, but is eager to give Russia’s President Putin the flexibility he desires, after the election. Under my administration, our friends will see more loyalty, and Mr. Putin will see a little less flexibility and more backbone.”

    THE FACTS: Romney conveniently ignores that Obama’s new missile defense plan provided Poland with a system it was “ready to participate” in, perhaps because Polish officials preferred it to the previous arrangement. Obama’s “flexibility” comment to Putin didn’t really worry Eastern European governments, but Romney’s hostile rhetoric about Russia is alienating a country whose cooperation is important on U.S. priorities like the Iranian nuclear program.

    http://thinkprogress.org/security/20...oreign-policy/

  18. #218
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    Ryan didn't embrace the cuts to pay for Obamacare and, besides, Ryan's cuts aren't in the Romney plan. Fact remains, Obama was going to reduce Medicare spending by $716 billion in order to put it towards his health care plan.

    Fox is wrong.
    Yoni LIES

    Ryan said he included Obama's $716B cuts in Medicare because Obama already had them!

    Obama cuts money sent to Medicare Advantage and other for-profit gougers

    Ryan cuts medicare spending by increasing seniors co-payments and deductibles, increasing seniors outlays by $5K+ per year.

    Paul Ryan's Medicare Doublespeak

    Ryan presents the $716 billion figure as an all-out attack by Obama against seniors. But what Ryan elides is that his own budget plan, which was passed by the House in 2011 and again in March of this year, contains the same exact cuts to Medicare. Ryan's speech also makes it sound as though Obama's cuts to Medicare have already taken place; in fact, the savings are to be spread out over 10 years. That's an important detail, because Ryan's and Obama's plans both take a similar approach to managing Medicare's budget down the road: They each cap the program's annual rate of increase at half a percentage point above the economy's rate of growth. By blasting Obama over Medicare, Ryan is attacking parts of his very own plan.

    There's more. Ryan's speech implies that Obama's cuts to Medicare will directly harm seniors. That's not the case. Obama's cost savings come at the expense of health-care providers -- they're not aimed at beneficiaries.

    In fact, Ryan's critics say his is the more damaging proposal, as an important part of his plan uses a mathematical trick as a way to cut costs. Here's how. The Ryan plan makes Medicare a voucher program; seniors would receive a check for health care that they can spend however they like. But because the voucher's value would grow more slowly than the pace of health-care costs, analysts project that the benefit would actually become worth less and less over time. Here's how the non-partisan Center on Budget and Policy Priorities puts it:

    Since under the Ryan budget, Medicare would no longer make payments to health care providers such as doctors and hospitals, the only way to keep Medicare cost growth within the GDP plus one-half percentage point target would be to limit the annual increase in the amount of the premium-support vouchers. As a result, the vouchers would purchase less coverage with each passing year, pushing more costs on to beneficiaries. Over time, seniors would have to pay more to keep the health plans and the doctors they like, or they would get fewer benefits.

    Although Mitt Romney has distanced himself from Ryan's Medicare cuts, Ryan's historical role as his party's agenda-setter is a good reason to take the vice-presidential candidate's ideas seriously. And part of that means pointing out when he's dissembling.

    http://www.theatlantic.com/health/ar...espeak/261779/

  19. #219
    selbstverständlich Agloco's Avatar
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    Did you actually read that article?
    Yes.

    I don't think you would have posted it if you had read it.
    Ok.

  20. #220
    Veteran scott's Avatar
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    I don't recall his wording on this but, have we been upgraded? Didn't the debt ceiling get raised? And, if so, shouldn't the downgrade have been temporary or could there be something else -- such as a screwed up economy and no budget for 4 years?
    The card has been played. The world market now knows that the American government is willing to let it's creditworthiness be held hostage. That threat hasn't gone away - why would they upgrade us now?

    With that said, the lack of a budget (but not the slowly growing economy, because it hasn't demonstrated to impact our ability to pay) should also play into the credit worthiness of the United States government (and it does - and both the Legislative and Executive branch deserve blame for that).


    He didn't blame Obama for the plant closing and, contrary to what is being reported the plant closed in April, 2009 but, that's not even germane to the point Ryan was making. He was criticizing Obama for standing at the plant in Janesville and, as a candidate, suggesting the plant would stay open for another 100 years if he were elected and implemented his policies.
    Hence why it's being called deceiving.

    Paraphrasing Ryan: "Obama promised it wouldn't closed if he was elected and his policies were implemented. Well, the plant is closed, Obama is president, and his policies were implemented."

    The above is all factual, but it's still non-sequitous and deceiving.

    PS: GM announced it was closing the plant in June 2008. While it had continuing operations beyond that, the announcement date is generally accepted nomenclature for "closed" in business circles.


    It pretty much is. Period. This president, as evidenced by his "Julia" nonsense believes government is the answer. in his "You didn't build it" comment, he principally mentions government functions of teachers, roads, bridges, etc... And, it wasn't the "You Didn't Build It" statement that created the meme -- That's just easier to say than, ""I'm always struck by people who think, `Well, it must be because I was just so smart.' There are a lot of smart people out there. `It must be because I worked harder than everybody else.' Let me tell you something: There are a whole bunch of hardworking people out there. If you were successful, somebody along the line gave you some help."

    That was the real insult. It offended everyone who ever spent years worrying about whether or not the risk they've taken by investing their entire life savings into a small business is going to pan out. It offended everyone who ever had an original idea and turned it into a thriving business. It offended anyone who every worked 20 hour days for months or years on end to make a business successful. And, it offended people who took little revenue from their business -- for years eating beans and rice -- so that they could plunk as much of their money into the business as possible.

    With the exception of friends and family, there is no one that helps a business get started without an expectation of something in return. Teacher teach for money, government provides roads and bridges for tax dollars (also paid by businesses and their owners), employees works for wages and benefits, investors invest for dividends, and customers shop because you offer the best value.

    A successful business owner had the idea, secured the money, invested the time and persuaded the investors, employees, and customers to engage the enterprise. There is no kind of help Obama mentioned that weren't available to unsuccessful businesses. None. So, whatever the he was talking about, it wasn't what made a successful business successful.

    scott, you're a businessman and you should know this better than anyone. Government costs you money. You pay fees and taxes to do business...government help isn't free and it particularly isn't free to small business
    Yawn, more of the "let me twist myself in pretzels to argue a point no one except for the most ardent red and blue teamers care about".

    The only people truly upset by his comment are those who sport the Red-Team starter jacket and, like yourself, seem -bent on rigging the game in favor of people like me. I don't even want the game rigged in favor of me, so why are you so concerned with it?

    Guess what? Those of us who are successful are so because we're smart enough to see the benefits of individual ambition & accomplishment AND community resources and spending. A business destination with no roads leading in has no customers.

    And your argument that "government isn't free" so "taxpayers build that" ignores fundamental economics and the fact that some enterprises can increase the marginal value of their output by being a monopoly (natural monopolies, we call these).

    What makes America great isn't that it is a completely laissez-faire system and it's not a complete centralized-control system. The hybrid model is, in fact, what has allowed the US to thrive relative to the rest of the world. Every economist will tell you that the free-market isn't perfect, and it fails. The role of government for some (including me) is to improve market outcomes in the event of those failures.


    Ryan didn't embrace the cuts to pay for Obamacare and, besides, Ryan's cuts aren't in the Romney plan. Fact remains, Obama was going to reduce Medicare spending by $716 billion in order to put it towards his health care plan.
    Actually, the fact remains that Obamacare purports to reduce Medicare expenditures by $716 billion, because they won't be necessary. There is a huge difference between that and your statement above. And fact remains that this is the same kind of savings the Ryan plan proposes.

    Whether or not Obamacare (or RyanCare, or anything else you want to plug in) actually accomplishes that is another matter.

    Fox is wrong.
    As is the Wall Street Journal, the Washington Post, FactCheck.org, PolitiFact, and everyone else who's covered this issue, apparently. How can they all be some pathetically mistaken? They must not read the same blogs as you, written and read by America's only truly enlighten citizenry.

    When the explanation of "why it's not deceiving" is longer than the original statement... it's probably deceiving.

    Don't peek out from behind your blinders though - the obvious is bright, causes eye damage.

  21. #221
    Just Right of Atilla the Hun Yonivore's Avatar
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    The card has been played. The world market now knows that the American government is willing to let it's creditworthiness be held hostage. That threat hasn't gone away - why would they upgrade us now?

    With that said, the lack of a budget (but not the slowly growing economy, because it hasn't demonstrated to impact our ability to pay) should also play into the credit worthiness of the United States government (and it does - and both the Legislative and Executive branch deserve blame for that).
    And Ryan put that blame on the Executive.

    Hence why it's being called deceiving.

    Paraphrasing Ryan: "Obama promised it wouldn't closed if he was elected and his policies were implemented. Well, the plant is closed, Obama is president, and his policies were implemented."

    The above is all factual, but it's still non-sequitous and deceiving.

    PS: GM announced it was closing the plant in June 2008. While it had continuing operations beyond that, the announcement date is generally accepted nomenclature for "closed" in business circles.
    I see your point so maybe, Obama shouldn't have used such promising rhetoric.

    Yawn, more of the "let me twist myself in pretzels to argue a point no one except for the most ardent red and blue teamers care about".

    The only people truly upset by his comment are those who sport the Red-Team starter jacket and, like yourself, seem -bent on rigging the game in favor of people like me. I don't even want the game rigged in favor of me, so why are you so concerned with it?

    Guess what? Those of us who are successful are so because we're smart enough to see the benefits of individual ambition & accomplishment AND community resources and spending. A business destination with no roads leading in has no customers.

    And your argument that "government isn't free" so "taxpayers build that" ignores fundamental economics and the fact that some enterprises can increase the marginal value of their output by being a monopoly (natural monopolies, we call these).

    What makes America great isn't that it is a completely laissez-faire system and it's not a complete centralized-control system. The hybrid model is, in fact, what has allowed the US to thrive relative to the rest of the world. Every economist will tell you that the free-market isn't perfect, and it fails. The role of government for some (including me) is to improve market outcomes in the event of those failures.
    Having said all that, what's the difference between your successful business and the unsuccessful business on the same roads, across the same bridges, and whose owners were taught by the same teachers? Could it be that you are just "so smart" and and that you "worked harder" than the unsuccessful business owner?

    Whatever excuse you come up with, it all falls back on the ingenuity, drive, and business a en of the owner.

    You succeed, where others fail, because of your effort not because of the resources available to everyone.

    Actually, the fact remains that Obamacare purports to reduce Medicare expenditures by $716 billion, because they won't be necessary. There is a huge difference between that and your statement above. And fact remains that this is the same kind of savings the Ryan plan proposes.

    Whether or not Obamacare (or RyanCare, or anything else you want to plug in) actually accomplishes that is another matter.
    Well the Romney Plan doesn't propose cutting it at all and I'm not sure how $716 billion isn't necessary in a program that is near insolvency.

    As is the Wall Street Journal, the Washington Post, FactCheck.org, PolitiFact, and everyone else who's covered this issue, apparently. How can they all be some pathetically mistaken? They must not read the same blogs as you, written and read by America's only truly enlighten citizenry.
    I've not seen one of them ask those saying these things (Romney or Ryan) to fully explain how what they're saying is true. The media isn't what it once was.
    Last edited by Yonivore; 08-31-2012 at 08:18 PM.

  22. #222
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    Fox News employs several left-liberal columnists, I suppose, in order to provide plausible deniability about their rightward slant. The linked column would be an example of such; it repeats basically the same talking points as most left-liberal columnists did following the Ryan speech. The author is an unapologetic liberal Democrat.

    I've seen this "even Fox News" talking point six or seven places.

    Clearly you're a free thinker; you would never parrot whatever your tribal leaders tell you to like those obscurantist right-wingers do.
    Yes, this woman is one of Fox's leftist employees. They allow her opinion published just like the conservatives get their material published. There are holes in her analysis if you follow through with them.

  23. #223
    Veteran Th'Pusher's Avatar
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    Taibbi's take is always fun. Don't worry red team, he doesn't call them liars and mentions nothing of facts

    I didn't watch Mitt Romney's acceptance speech last night. I can't do it: even under normal cir stances, watching politicians of any stripe talk about anything at all makes me unable to sleep. And a convention speech, which is almost always a deeply schizoid address authored by 38 different infighting political consultants and amplified by the heaviest possible doses of network TV's goofball effects and nuclear-powered stagecraft, is generally the most unwatchable of all political performances. So I try always to watch such speeches the next morning, and am just now taking in the Romney address.

    The Republican convention in general has been a strange affair. The vibe around Republican politics in general was much happier in the days before the Bush presidency cratered. Republican politics before Bush imploded was a confident brew of guns, Jesus, and Freedom.

    A Republican politician's job back then was, if not easy, pretty clear: you bashed welfare queens and free-riders, told tearful stories of fetuses composing operas in the womb, and promised to bomb America's enemies back to the Stone Age. You didn't have to split hairs or hedge bets: you got up on stage, took a baseball bat to liberals and terrorists and other such perverts, and let the momentum of the crowd carry you to victory. You were like Slim Pickens at the end of Dr. Strangelove, riding high with a nuke between your legs, waving your ten-gallon hat at and going out in a blaze of yeeee-hah!!!s.



    Republican politics used to be fun. Even I sort of got into it. When I was undercover working for George W. Bush in a campaign office in Orlando back in 2004, it was a much easier acting job than I expected it to be. You went into the campaign office, sat with the other volunteers, and talked about all the Hollywood actors you wished would keep their damned mouths shut. Any liberal who claims there isn't lots of fun to be had making fun of liberals is a goddmaned liar. Anyway, one of my fellow volunteers back then gave me a copy of Shut Up and Sing – not the Dixie Chicks do entary, the Laura Ingraham book – and that quickly replaced Lawrence Taylor's Over the Edge as my go-to bathroom reader. It was crazy, paranoid stuff, but that sort of politics had a reassuringly simple quality to it; it was dependable, like a rock.

    But today's Republican politics are totally confused. The Romney-Ryan speeches were a bizarre exercise in tightroping and hair-splitting. Ryan's speech weirdly went after the Democrats for a plan to cut Medicare that he himself had rejected for not cutting enough – and then in the same speech went after the Obama vision of society that is a "dull, adventureless journey from one en lement to the next, a government-planned life, a country where everything is free but us."

    The Ryan VP pick was clearly a calculated gamble. Like the Palin pick, it was intended to fire up the base by bringing in a young, fresh-faced politician with hardcore conservative credentials. That would help bring out the red-state die-hard vote for Romney, a onetime pro-choice creator of a state-run health care program who struggled with exactly those voters in his primary battles against the likes of newt Gingrich and Rick Santorum.

    But Ryan's conservative cred derives almost entirely from his strike-hard-strike-first-no-mercy-sir reputation as a ruthless chainsawer of all government-funded "waste," including sacred-cow en lements like Medicare. If he was coming on board, surely it was to preach the gospel of budget bloodbaths.

    So what does Ryan the Vice-Presidential candidate do? He goes to Tampa and spends half his speech doing a Ted Kennedy impersonation, talking about the "obligation we have to our parents and grandparents," pitching his party as the defender of a beloved government en lement program! "The greatest threat to Medicare," he said, "is Obamacare, and we're going to stop it."

    Then, like the Unknown Comic, who used to switch bag-faces mid-routine, he moved right back into his young-Barry Goldwater act, bashing en lements and the "supervision and sanctimony of the central planners."

    Are you confused yet? I was. Is the move here dog-whistling an unspoken promise to the base to slash "en lements," while somehow retaining Medicare? Or is it dog-whistling an unspoken promise to the base to slash "en lements," including Medicare?

    I couldn't tell. Ultimately I think the answer was actually behind door number three, as in:

    My fellow Americans, whatever Barack Obama is doing with Medicare, it's bad, and we promise to reverse it!

    (APPLAUSE)

    And not only that, we'll go even further in cutting wasteful en lements from our bloated government budget!

    (APPLAUSE)

    Does that make logical sense? No. Does it make political sense? Sort of – if your voters either have extremely short attention spans, or they are themselves comfortable with certain minor rhetorical contradictions.

    If they're like the Tea Partiers whom I watched in Kentucky lustily cheering Sarah Palin from their Medicare-funded wheelchairs as she railed against government en lement programs, then a speech like Ryan's works well enough. It just doesn't work quite as well as a speech that doesn't have any contradictions at all – like George Bush's 2004 acceptance speech, cleverly set in post-9/11 New York, in which he promised that electing anyone but himself would result in terrorists running free down the smoldering wreckage of Your Town, U.S.A., followed by prancing sets of gay married actors from Hollywood.

    Anyway, when Ryan had the Goldwater side of his paper bag turned to the audience, he railed against Obama's health care program, calling it "two thousand pages of rules, mandates, taxes, fees, and fines that have no place in a free country."

    That line drew genuine cheers from the crowd, especially since it coincided with the ejection of much-despised Code Pink demonstrators from the stadium. But I could swear the cheers were tempered just a little bit at the end when the audience members – even these audience members, even that ridiculous lady wearing the red-white-and-blue "America" vest – slowly remembered that Ryan's running mate had not only proposed but implemented an extremely similar health care program in Massachusetts.

    Which brings us to Romney's speech. Romney spent a lot of time talking about his various successes as a businessman. But the only reference to his government experience – his most relevant qualification for this office, remember – came in a moment where he reminded the audience that as governor, he "chose a woman lieutenant governor, a woman chief of staff."

    He left out the part where he ran for governor of Massachusetts as a pro-choice centrist who supported the teaching of evolution and the banning of assault rifles. He completely omitted any mention of his own health care program and in fact said exactly two things about health care in the entire speech: he repeated Ryan's line about Medicare, and then promised to repeal "Obamacare."

    On the other hand, he mentioned all the women he hired as governor, and in general spent an enormous amount of time talking about women's issues. Which would be great, if it were not for the fact that the reasoning behind this rhetorical decision is so transparent – Romney added to the traditional Republican weakness among female voters when he chose Ryan, whose other major claim to fame as a hardcore conservative is his uncompromising stance on abortion. Ryan's history here is similar to his history on budget cuts: he made himself famous by going further than other pols were willing to go.

    He co-sponsored legislation with Todd Akin (who is about as popular with women right now as flesh-eating streptococcus) called the "Sanc y of Human Life Act," which would have given a human fertilized egg "all the legal and cons utional attributes and privileges of personhood." (I imagine that before Akin's gaffe, the next planned bill would have stripped those same fertilized eggs of Miranda rights). Moreover, Ryan supported the notorious "Let Women Die Act," which would have refused women access to abortion even if her life is in danger.

    So to recap: the candidate himself used to be pro-choice, spoke glowingly of his mother's support of abortion rights in his 1994 Senate race against Ted Kennedy, then suddenly became anti-choice in 2006. The VP candidate has been firmly anti-choice his whole career. Yet neither candidate went anywhere near the abortion issue in his speech.

    In fact, you could build a walking bridge across the Bering Strait with all the major stuff the two candidates didn't bring up in their speeches. Romney's signature achievement as a politician was his health-care program. Ryan's claim to fame was his budget. But they spent most of their time in their speeches slithering, Catherine-Zeta-Jones-in-Entrapment style, around their own records.



    So what did they talk about? The line that astonished me most from Mitt's speech was this one, where he talked about the changes Americans "deserved" and should have gotten during Obama's presidency:

    You deserved it because you worked harder than ever before during these years. You deserved it because, when it cost more to fill up your car, you cut out moving lights, and put in longer hours. Or when you lost that job that paid $22.50 an hour, benefits, you took two jobs at $9 an hour…

    Are you kidding? Mitt Romney was the guy that fired you from that $22.50 an hour job, and helped you replace it with two $9 an hour jobs! He was a pioneer in the area of eliminating the well-paying job with benefits and replacing it with the McJob that offered no benefits at all. One of the things that killed him in the Senate race against Ted Kennedy were Kennedy ads that reminded voters that Mitt's takeovers resulted in slashed wages and lost benefits. He was exactly the guy that eliminated that classic $22.50 manufacturing job, like in the case of GST Steel, where Bain took over with an initial investment of $8 million, paid itself a $36 million dividend, ended up walking away with $50 million, and left GST saddled with over $500 million in debt. 750 of those well-paying jobs were lost.

    What kinds of jobs were left for those fired workers to look for? Well, in the best-case scenario, you might have found one at Ampad, another Bain takeover target, where workers had their pay slashed from $10.22 to $7.88 an hour, tripled co-pays, and eliminated the retirement plan.

    So a guy who eliminated hundreds of $22 an hour jobs and slashed hundreds more jobs to below $9 an hour blasts Barack Obama for not giving you the better life you deserved, after you lost your $22/hour job and had to take two $9/hour jobs. Are we all high or something? Did that really just happen?

    Just a lame pair of speeches, overall. They made me miss George Bush. At least the Bush/Cheney/Rove era offered a clear ideological choice – and some pretty passionate, ingeniously-delivered political theater, comparatively. Where's the blood and guts, the bomb-‘em-till-they're-crispy war calls? Where are the screw-the-poor tirades, the "you can pry it from my cold dead hand" guns-and-liberty crescendos? This stuff is pretty weak beer compared to those days.

    Read more: http://www.rollingstone.com/politics...#ixzz25AxP1QSA

  24. #224
    Veteran Th'Pusher's Avatar
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    Redditor discovers Fox News removes trending list from front page because Anti-Ryan article is on top.

    http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/com...om_front_page/

  25. #225
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    Original story by Scott Douglas, 11:59 am


    In an interview with radio host Hugh Hewitt last week, Republican vice presidential nominee Paul Ryan said he's run a sub-3:00 marathon.


    In the interview, after Ryan told Hewitt that he ran in high school, Hewitt asked if Ryan still runs. Ryan replied, "Yeah, I hurt a disc in my back, so I don't run marathons anymore. I just run ten miles or less." When Hewitt asked Ryan what his personal best is, Ryan replied, "Under three, high twos. I had a two hour and fifty-something."


    Runner's World has been unable to find any marathon results by Ryan. Requests for more information from Ryan's Washington and Wisconsin offices, and from the Romney-Ryan campaign, have so far gone unanswered.
    If Ryan has broken 3:00, he'd be the fastest marathoner to be on a national ticket. John Edwards has run 3:30; George W. Bush has run 3:44; Sarah Palin has run 3:59; and Al Gore has run 4:58.


    Ryan isn't the first aspirant for national office to make a hard-to-verify claim about having run a marathon. John Kerry came under scrutiny when he ran for president in 2004 for saying that he'd run the Boston Marathon.
    The November 2004 issue of Runner's World reported that Kerry had run Boston in the 1970s but gave no supporting details. ESPN looked into the claim and wound up concluding "there's no official record of his feat, and his campaign did not provide further details despite repeated inquiries."
    In an e-mail to Runner's World last night, Tom Derderian, author of Boston Marathon, said, "It is very hard to prove a negative, but in doing my research I read every account in every newspaper about the Boston Marathon. I would have seen and noted that a US Senator ran."


    If you have information on Ryan's marathon past, write to Newswire editor Scott Douglas.
    http://news.runnersworld.com/2012/08...-300-marathon/

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