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  1. #26
    Machacarredes Chinook's Avatar
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    Bruno you reminded me of the stretch provision, if we waive Bonner (and his $1m guaranteed), can we use it on him? That would make his cap hit this year an almost negligible $333k and save us having to amnesty him.
    Teams can only use the stretch provision on players who signed contracts after the current CBA took effect. Bonner signed the year before.

  2. #27
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    It will depends on how much money Ginobili and Millsap will cost and the level of the cap. Splitter isn't really part of the equation since you can sign him last for whatever amount you want.

    To make it simple, with a cap of $62M, Spurs will have $16.3M to split between Ginobili and Millsap. If Ginobili is fine with $6M per years, Spurs could offer Millsap a contract starting at $10.3M.
    So, resigning unrestricted player would not be limited by cap space?

  3. #28
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    Could you imagine Millsap getting the kind of open looks that Diaw passes up every game? He'd get 15ppg easy

  4. #29
    Bruce Almighty Bruno's Avatar
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    Yes, but the Spurs can use that roster charge as part of Milsap's deal. So I thought they can give him $10.8 (or $8.8) in your scenario. Just like you're taking away the roster charges when including a deal for Ginobili and Splitter's hold.
    You can't count a roster charge for a player you will sign. Larry Coon explained it well in his FAQ:
    http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q14
    Since teams are required to have at least 13 players on their rosters, the roster charge reserves a minimum amount of cap space to sign 13 players. For example, if a team has 11 players on its roster, the roster charge reserves cap space to sign the team's 13th player, and the remainder can be used to sign the 12th player.
    The way to work with this roster charge would be a sign & trade. For trades, the rule is:
    http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q80
    Teams under the salary cap may make trades as they please, as long as they don't finish more than $100,000 above the salary cap following any trade.
    In that case the roster charge will disappear and so Spurs could gave Millsap an extra $590K compared to a classic free agent signing.

  5. #30
    Machacarredes Chinook's Avatar
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    All right. Thanks a lot for the clarification. My mistake was thinking that the minimum roster size was 12 and not 13.

    I know the trade rules, but I hadn't considered them as a means to bypass roster charges. That would also be interesting.

    Also, that extra roster charge I wasn't considering makes Neal more worth while to keep, since his hold is really only 610k or so after factoring in the roster charge. Or the hold for the Spurs' first-rounder shouldn't be that bad.

  6. #31
    Bruce Almighty Bruno's Avatar
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    Also, that extra roster charge I wasn't considering makes Neal more worth while to keep, since his hold is really only 610k or so after factoring in the roster charge.
    Neal could even eat less cap space ($294K) if Spurs don't make a QO and just keep his bird rights. It would be a riskier move since Neal would be an UFA.

    The question with Neal isn't really whether or not it makes sense to keep him financially wise, it's if it makes sense basketball wise.

  7. #32
    Machacarredes Chinook's Avatar
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    Neal could even eat less cap space ($294K) if Spurs don't make a QO and just keep his bird rights. It would be a riskier move since Neal would be an UFA.

    The question with Neal isn't really whether or not it makes sense to keep him financially wise, it's if it makes sense basketball wise.
    That's why I like the idea of giving him the qualifying offer. They can let the market decide how much he's worth while seeing what else is going on with their roster. It's possible someone like Re is going to be their big free-agent target (hopefully not). If he is, then having Neal in their back pocket wouldn't be the worst thing ever. If they don't want him, they can always decide to not match whatever offer he gets. I think there's very little upside to keep their options open for that little money.

  8. #33
    Bruce Almighty Bruno's Avatar
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    That's why I like the idea of giving him the qualifying offer.
    And I don't like it.

    I just think Spurs are fine at the guards spots for next year with Parker, Green, Ginobili, Joseph and De Colo. I just have no interest in adding Neal or another good guard to these 5 players.

  9. #34
    Machacarredes Chinook's Avatar
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    And I don't like it.

    I just think Spurs are fine at the guards spots for next year with Parker, Green, Ginobili, Joseph and De Colo. I just have no interest in adding Neal or another good guard to these 5 players.
    I can understand that. But I don't know if the Spurs can really count on Ginobili anymore. Honestly, unless he comes back strong in the playoffs, the Spurs pretty much have to start preparing as if they're playing without him. I'd like to see them pick up a score-first guard, even if it's a player in the draft who's going to sit on bench for a couple of years. Marcus Denmon would have been an interesting prospect had he not gotten injured.

  10. #35
    Coming Off The Bench TheGoldStandard's Avatar
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    I can understand that. But I don't know if the Spurs can really count on Ginobili anymore. Honestly, unless he comes back strong in the playoffs, the Spurs pretty much have to start preparing as if they're playing without him. I'd like to see them pick up a score-first guard, even if it's a player in the draft who's going to sit on bench for a couple of years. Marcus Denmon would have been an interesting prospect had he not gotten injured.
    That's all the spurs have been doing for quite some time, they draft or find SG who Pop tries to convert to PG's but they're undersized and lack speed. Spurs need a PG that can actually create in the paint, great first step, plays defense and can dish the ball to help the perimeter for the second team.

  11. #36
    Machacarredes Chinook's Avatar
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    That's all the spurs have been doing for quite some time, they draft or find SG who Pop tries to convert to PG's but they're undersized and lack speed. Spurs need a PG that can actually create in the paint, great first step, plays defense and can dish the ball to help the perimeter for the second team.
    That's pretty much the opposite of what I'm saying. I'm saying that the Spurs need a score-first guard to replace Ginobili, not to go along with him. Pop has been trying to find a shooting-guard to play next to Manu because he wanted Ginobili to be the main ball-handler in the second unit. Those days are over, which is why De Colo and Joseph should get the nod at the one over a player like Neal. However, I don't trust Ginobili's health anymore, so I don't think it's wise to consider the two-guard position set. I'd like to see a deep-bench player who can fill it up like Neal. I used Denmon because he's in the pipeline right now.

    I think the Spurs need to remake their bench to where Ginobili is not the main focus of the unit. The main part of that is spending money to bring in a big man to play with the reserves and/or push Splitter back to the bench. Another part of it is getting a versatile small-forward with upside to back up Leonard. The final piece of it is to have a guard who can score in Ginobili's absence. The loser out of the De Colo/Joseph point battle may be that guy, and indeed, I think they could be a good tandem. But it wouldn't hurt to have some instant offense on the bench.

    I'm looking for a lineup like this:

    Starters: Parker, Green, Leonard, Millsap, Duncan

    Bench: De Colo-Joseph winner, Ginobili, Wes Johnson/other room-exception wing, Diaw, Splitter

    Reserves: Instant-offense guard, De Colo/Joseph loser, Baynes, draft pick big man or combo-forward

    I think that team is more balanced than the one we see today.

  12. #37
    Coming Off The Bench TheGoldStandard's Avatar
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    That's pretty much the opposite of what I'm saying. I'm saying that the Spurs need a score-first guard to replace Ginobili, not to go along with him. Pop has been trying to find a shooting-guard to play next to Manu because he wanted Ginobili to be the main ball-handler in the second unit. Those days are over, which is why De Colo and Joseph should get the nod at the one over a player like Neal. However, I don't trust Ginobili's health anymore, so I don't think it's wise to consider the two-guard position set. I'd like to see a deep-bench player who can fill it up like Neal. I used Denmon because he's in the pipeline right now.

    I think the Spurs need to remake their bench to where Ginobili is not the main focus of the unit. The main part of that is spending money to bring in a big man to play with the reserves and/or push Splitter back to the bench. Another part of it is getting a versatile small-forward with upside to back up Leonard. The final piece of it is to have a guard who can score in Ginobili's absence. The loser out of the De Colo/Joseph point battle may be that guy, and indeed, I think they could be a good tandem. But it wouldn't hurt to have some instant offense on the bench.

    I'm looking for a lineup like this:

    Starters: Parker, Green, Leonard, Millsap, Duncan

    Bench: De Colo-Joseph winner, Ginobili, Wes Johnson/other room-exception wing, Diaw, Splitter

    Reserves: Instant-offense guard, De Colo/Joseph loser, Baynes, draft pick big man or combo-forward

    I think that team is more balanced than the one we see today.
    I agree with having a vet big come in who will take a pay cut to play, I would love to have Al Jefferson, the guy works hard and can hit a jump shot, pound the ball and rebound same with milsap. the de colo/joseph deal needs to get resolved in the offseason way too much by committee this year. Gino is done in my opinion so yes we need to go elsewhere with the bench and wes Johnson would be nice, there are a few options open during the off season, lots of people trying to dump salary space.. It may sound stupid but heck even give Gilbert Arenas a call, lol. Someone who isn't afraid to score, push the envelope and score and who could catch fire.

    We're in a position where nobody looks to score outside of gary neal because he's not only playing for today but he's playing for a contract so he'll just jack it up. When he's controlled its good stuff but it gets out of hand so yeah I agree with your statements.

  13. #38
    Machacarredes Chinook's Avatar
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    I agree with having a vet big come in who will take a pay cut to play, I would love to have Al Jefferson, the guy works hard and can hit a jump shot, pound the ball and rebound same with milsap. the de colo/joseph deal needs to get resolved in the offseason way too much by committee this year. Gino is done in my opinion so yes we need to go elsewhere with the bench and wes Johnson would be nice, there are a few options open during the off season, lots of people trying to dump salary space.. It may sound stupid but heck even give Gilbert Arenas a call, lol. Someone who isn't afraid to score, push the envelope and score and who could catch fire.

    We're in a position where nobody looks to score outside of gary neal because he's not only playing for today but he's playing for a contract so he'll just jack it up. When he's controlled its good stuff but it gets out of hand so yeah I agree with your statements.
    Yes, pretty much. The Spurs bench is broken right now. Jack and Ginobili are failing, and there isn't a legitmate bench big outside of Diaw forty percent of the time. An Al Jefferson-type big would be nice, because he can do his thing on offense in iso situations, which takes a lot of pressure off the guards. If Jefferson emphasized kicking out to open shooters, then I could see the bench returning to its glory days. But Al himself just doesn't seem mobile enough to play with Duncan or Splitter. His role would be too limited to warrant the money he'd command.

    That's why I suggested a big like Millsap, who can score well enough to replace Splitter in the starting unit and allow Tiago to return to the bench and give De Colo, Joseph and Ginobili a great PnR partner. A shooting wing could be a great complimentary piece, while a score-first guard should still be able to get plenty of touches.

  14. #39
    Coming Off The Bench TheGoldStandard's Avatar
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    Millsap would be a good get and I would still be okay with Al Jefferson just because I think Jefferson has the better overall game, Chris Kaman won't stay with Dallas and he has flashes of good interior play. I think Tyreke Evans might be a good fit, seems like he could be a natural scorer at the guard position catching and shooting rather than trying to run the offense.

  15. #40
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    We talk a lot about getting a big with the cap money this summer, but realistically what UFA is out there that the Spurs could get? Btw, I start with the premise that I think most would agree with: Smith (or Howard) aren't coming here. I'm also assuming Tiago re-ups here. I truly see the Splitt/Duncan frontline up working quite well for the next two years. If we're really talking signing a big man, that really means bench player or someone to groom following Duncan's departure (and who is willing to be groomed at a discount). Here is the crop of PF/C that will command decent $$ this summer:

    David West (doubt he leaves a good situation w/Pacers to come to the more compe ive western conference)
    Paul Millsap (would like it, but you have to think a team is going to offer him a starting gig. If not, do you commit big $$ to a bench player? Maybe)
    Elton Brand (walking injury, low motor, questionable D, pass)
    Al Jefferson (Big fan, but again see Milsap above)
    Chris Kaman (Has been linked to the Spurs before, and may come cheap(er); a bit long on in the tooth though)
    Nikola Pekovic (though RFA, if we lose Splitter could be someone Spurs try to out bid for. Doubtful in any event).

    The above players would be great, but would likely find better situations else where. Maybe Kaman, and to a lesser extent Millsap may be willing to accept the bench roles. If Spurs really want a project big they can find one in this draft which projects to be good at precisely that position.

    I've changed perspectives on who to target this summer. Manu's health is worrisome, and I wonder if it doesn't make sense to sign a player on the wings. With cap space, I'm a big proponent of throwing money at "fallen stars" who are in need of rehabbing their careers. T. Evan, N. Young, D. William, O. Casspi (though obviously not in the same talent class) would be interesting picks this summer.

  16. #41
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    I'm not on board with getting Milsapp.

    Even Jazz media and fans have subtly soured on Milsapp. Listening to Jazz watchers, it sounds like his play for the first season ever has plateaued or gotten worse, despite his nice looking PER. He routinely loses match-ups against west PFs, usually badly. Even the Jazz pbp radio guy has talked with some reservation about how he's been eaten alive by Faried in every Jazz-Nuggets game, by Lee, by Ibaka . . . just troubling stuff.

    Maybe it's just free agency-to-be fatigue from a player who signed an offer sheet to leave Utah before, and then this past summer turned down an extension from Utah (they offered the most they were allowed by the CBA). But he's had a big role to play in Utah's collapse.

    So I don't like what I see when I watch him and think about what he'd be on the Spurs.

  17. #42
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    David West (doubt he leaves a good situation w/Pacers to come to the more compe ive western conference)
    David West is a mercenary. He's only about money and will sign with whoever pays him the most, which is why he turned down going to a contending Boston to get a little extra from a mediocre-at-the-time Pacers team.

    West would be good.

  18. #43
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    Milsap finished the year terribly.

    Last 5 games: 39.6% fg (19-for-48), 8.4 points and 6.2 rebounds in 31 mpg. Plus he's been criticized for his defense.

    No thanks.

  19. #44
    Bruce Almighty Bruno's Avatar
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    ^

    yeah, I definitely agree with you that Millsap isn't that good. I put him in the same category than players like Scola, Gooden or Lee. These are skilled undersized PF that put great numbers but at the end these are kind of empty stats that don't really help teams to win games. These players also don't age well.

    I will only signed if he cheap and if Spurs can't get a better player through FA because either they don't have the cap space to get one or none wants to join them. A Millsap at $8M per year is fine with me and it might allow Spurs to have a little cap space left to do other moves like keeping Neal and/or their first round pick or front-loaded some contracts.

  20. #45
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    ^

    yeah, I definitely agree with you that Millsap isn't that good. I put him in the same category than players like Scola, Gooden or Lee. These are skilled undersized PF that put great numbers but at the end these are kind of empty stats that don't really help teams to win games. These players also don't age well.

    I will only signed if he cheap and if Spurs can't get a better player through FA because either they don't have the cap space to get one or none wants to join them. A Millsap at $8M per year is fine with me and it might allow Spurs to have a little cap space left to do other moves like keeping Neal and/or their first round pick or front-loaded some contracts.
    Don't disagree, but forgetting ideals for a minute and just looking at it logically: With the amount they figure to have to spend, their need at PF and the urgency to win now, does it really matter if he's making in the $10M range? Even if he's declined by a fair bit in the back half of it, chances are it's still not going to matter because the only other players making a significant amount will probably be Parker, Leonard and Splitter.

    And what's this about "keeping Neal"; I thought you wanted him gone? Clearly, they need an SF who's serviceable enough to step into the rotation if need be and if they could get D. Wright, I'd be all for it. But if it's between Casspi and Neal, I'd rather keep Neal (really, both would be ideal, but I doubt Casspi would sign to not be in the rotation and signing both would make it more difficult to sign Millsap), because he's Ginobili and Joseph/De Colo insurance.

  21. #46
    Bruce Almighty Bruno's Avatar
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    With the amount they figure to have to spend, their need at PF and the urgency to win now, does it really matter if he's making in the $10M range? Even if he's declined by a fair bit in the back half of it, chances are it's still not going to matter because the only other players making a significant amount will probably be Parker, Leonard and Splitter.
    If Spurs want to rebuild as quickly as possible around Parker/Leonard/Splitter, they will need as much cap space as possible. And I'm never been a fan of the "hurt the future to help the present" approach. It's even more the case than I think Spurs are quite far from winning a le because of the Heat and that I don't see at all Millsap as some kind of difference maker.

    And what's this about "keeping Neal"; I thought you wanted him gone?
    I wanted and I still want. Only a great playoffs campaign form him could change that.
    I was talking about keeping Neal for the people who wants to keep him.

  22. #47
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    Without the big city draw, I don't see us being able to rebuild around Parker after Duncan retires. A 32 year old Parker along with Splitter and Kawhi wouldn't stand a chance against OKC for example

    We will almost certainly need to rebuild through the draft. Spurs will need to get worse before getting better.

  23. #48
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    If Spurs want to rebuild as quickly as possible around Parker/Leonard/Splitter, they will need as much cap space as possible. And I'm never been a fan of the "hurt the future to help the present" approach. It's even more the case than I think Spurs are quite far from winning a le because of the Heat and that I don't see at all Millsap as some kind of difference maker.
    I don't see how they'd be hurting their future. Let's be honest, if they couldn't attract an A-list free agent in Duncan's prime, then there's no chance they will with a late/slightly past prime Parker, Leonard and Splitter. That being the case, creating max cap space shouldn't supersede increasing the chances (even if ever so slightly) of winning one more championship.

    And no matter how far fetched a le may appear to be, it is so difficult to have even a sliver of a chance in this league (particularly in a market like this), that you should absolutely go all in in pursuit of it.

    I wanted and I still want. Only a great playoffs campaign form him could change that.
    I was talking about keeping Neal for the people who wants to keep him.
    Even if he maintains the role he's in now, as the fourth wing, playing limited minutes? I'm as big a proponent for size at all positions as you'll find, but I don't see how Casspi makes more sense than him, not with Ginobili's lack of durability and the lack of a proven backup PG.

  24. #49
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    I don't see how they'd be hurting their future. Let's be honest, if they couldn't attract an A-list free agent in Duncan's prime, then there's no chance they will with a late/slightly past prime Parker, Leonard and Splitter. That being the case, creating max cap space shouldn't supersede increasing the chances (even if ever so slightly) of winning one more championship.

    And no matter how far fetched a le may appear to be, it is so difficult to have even a sliver of a chance in this league (particularly in a market like this), that you should absolutely go all in in pursuit of it.



    Even if he maintains the role he's in now, as the fourth wing, playing limited minutes? I'm as big a proponent for size at all positions as you'll find, but I don't see how Casspi makes more sense than him, not with Ginobili's lack of durability and the lack of a proven backup PG.
    Cap space doesn't ONLY have to be used for FAs. OKC did a great job of leveraging theirs into draft picks/players taken in exchange for cap/tax relief for other teams while they were building. This is even MORE important with the stricter tax rules coming into effect this summer. OKC got the pick for Ibaka, PG Eric Maynor, and SG DaQuan Cook this way.

  25. #50
    Machacarredes Chinook's Avatar
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    Cap space doesn't ONLY have to be used for FAs. OKC did a great job of leveraging theirs into draft picks/players taken in exchange for cap/tax relief for other teams while they were building. This is even MORE important with the stricter tax rules coming into effect this summer. OKC got the pick for Ibaka, PG Eric Maynor, and SG DaQuan Cook this way.
    Yes indeed. That is definitely the way the Spurs have to go when it's time to rebuild. Unless they can get a really good pick for their space this off-season, though, it makes more sense.

    Also, the Thunder/Supersonics acquired Cook and the pick for Eric Bledsoe from the Heat for cap space. They acquired Maynor in his sop re year from the Jazz for what I assume was indeed cap relief. The Thunder got the Ibaka pick (along with the pick they used on Quincy Pondexter) from Phoenix in exchange to taking Kurt Thomas, whom they turned around and traded to the Spurs for the pick they used on Beaubois. That was some fine angling right there.

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