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guy says in the video that "it should collapse." i think he was anticipating something far less severe.
by all means film it if you want, but dont bring your innocent daughter into it.
Huh?
Are you claiming fires don't accidentally happen?
I doubt that, so what am I missing?
guy says in the video that "it should collapse." i think he was anticipating something far less severe.
by all means film it if you want, but dont bring your innocent daughter into it.
guess he should have put it in blue
Can someone fill me in on why it's such a slam dunk that this wasn't an accident? (either that or just say it's a bunch of re ed conspiracy theorists convincing themselves this wasn't an accident)
DUNCANownsKOBE I would not be shocked if this was not a accident. I am gonna wait for the facts come out first.
was making fun of BobaFett's Boston Marathon bombing take. he's apparently got an "open mind" about this one.
So if at my work I get gas in my eyes I sue my boss because I did not wear my Goggles for safety. GTFO boutons_deux.
Of course this was an accident and probably compounded by volunteer firefighter error. I'm willing to bet the fire was just a fire and the explosion was a huge pressure vessel explosion. Anhydrous Ammonia "boils" at 28F and has to be kept in pressure tanks to remain in a liquid state. My guess is that the fire heated the tanks and caused the ammonia to vaporize increasing the pressure and it started releasing the pressure relief valve...because of the sudden pressure drop this gas released would be sub-zero and if firefighters were spraying water on the tank at the release point it would have immediately frozen and prevented the relief valve from working...then pressure built up to a couple thousand PSI and BOOM the tank came apart.
Last edited by CosmicCowboy; 04-19-2013 at 11:31 AM.
GFY
any grunt employees undertaking well-known fatally dangerous tasks should be supervised, backed up, etc. The son of under the grain bin who could have shut it off had not idea the kids were dying. how about a video camera so he could how the kids were doing? or a supevisor ing supervising the kids?
No he shouldn't have. It didn't need the blue.
I'm telling you guys, 9 out of 10 it was an ordinary fire that then caused a big pressure vessel of anhydrous ammonia to overpressurize and explode. I't was a pressure explosion and not a fertilizer explosion.
You can even tell which direction the tank was facing...probably north south and the north head blew off first. This wasn't an explosion of concentric rings like a dart board...everything blew north like a shaped charge...
My bet is an accidental fire, no fire extinguishers in the vicinity (another save-money error), very probably started by human error, carelessness.
Cowboys could have gone macho, devil-may-care, nobody-nothing- s-with-this-young-cowboy working around highly explosive material.
This fert material has exploded many times in the past, just like walking down the grain has killed 100s, nothing new here, no surprise.
The biggie was 1947, 500+ people killed.
CC with the pyrotechnic forensics!
Hey wad, Part of what I do is run an ASME/NBIC certified pressure vessel facility. Iv'e got a damn good idea how this works and a good idea of what it looks like when it doesn't. This was a fire and then a pressure vessel explosion. They supposedly had about 60,000# of anhydrous ammonia in a pressure tank. That converts to suddenly 1,250,000 cubic feet of "new" air being created when it blows and a resulting shock wave that expands at 3000+ feet per second. This wasn't a "flaming" explosion from combustion. This was a catastrophic pressure vessel failure that then blew flaming everywhere.My bet is an accidental fire, no fire extinguishers in the vicinity (another save-money error), very probably started by human error, carelessness.
Cowboys could have gone macho, devil-may-care, nobody-nothing- s-with-this-young-cowboy working around highly explosive material.
This fert material has exploded many times in the past, just like walking down the grain has killed 100s, nothing new here, no surprise.
The biggie was 1947, 500+ people killed.
CC with the pyrotechnic forensics!
Gas...
The job would have needed a respirator.
These places do train their employees, unless they hire contractors that provide their own training. It's going to be real rare to find an employer that doesn't do this. It is far more common that employees the shortcuts rather than supervisors, but it does happen both ways.
I don't agree with suing your employer for your failure to follow safety protocol, but the courts often awards such lawsuits.
Part of "confined space" requirements by OSHA is at least one more properly trained individual. There are different levels depending on the hazards involved. Supervisors often do not do the same work their employees do, and are often not qualified.
A remote video would not allow for proper response time.
Maybe you should find the OSHA guidelines and look up "confined space" requirements instead of talking out your ass.
I agree that was likely it.
He is an idiot. Everybody in my company is confined space qualified and we have all the gear including the oxygen analyzer/alarm. Most of the big plants we work at are just anal about safety. as usual, Boutons is blowing out he knows nothing about.
Sadly, they will probably find eventually that the PRV on the tank was iced up by an over-exuberant volunteer firefighter spraying water on it instead of letting the gas escape like it is supposed to do. They should have called that plant a goner and been evacuating the neighborhood instead of spraying water on it. I realize they are all dead and I respect their service and their sacrifice and certainly wish it hadn't happened.
Wow...
I assume they probably had volunteers. The fire department unit itself was certainly trained of the unique nature of the plant, but if they also had volunteers...
Good point.
However, shouldn't a pressure release valve be designed to not have that happen?
OK, we are getting to the outer fringe of speculation now. Remember we are dealing with a liquid under high pressure that turns to a gas at 28 degrees F. Ammonia is also a refrigerant. All the old ice plants used to use it. When the ammonia gas under pressure escapes into the atmosphere (goes from high pressure to low pressure) it goes massive sub zero. Add water/mist from a firehose from an untrained volunteer fireman and you have instant glacier encapsulating the relief valve.
Yes, I understand that. I'll bet most here don't. I'll bet if that was the cause, someone either ignored training or wasn't trained. I guess it could have been damaged, but isn't such a system redundant when dealing with such a potentially large destructive force?
As for encasing it in ice, shouldn't the pressure break the ice? I was thinking a moving part would have to be frozen.
Google pressure relief valve. It is a housing with an inlet and a discharge that has a seat and a corresponding stem/disc that is spring loaded to whatever pressure the valve is supposed to relieve at between the inlet and discharge. Ice could plug the out of it..
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