Grizzlies: "Fat" Gasol is the best big man in the game

[LkrFan]

Backpedaling.

Duncan not even playing as many minutes as Gasol.

You're ing wrong.

Not backpedaling in the least. Answer my question: would Duncan put up the same numbers in Memphis? The answer is no. Pop, to his credit, changed the offense up they last few years. This caused Duncan to put up better numbers. I mean, just in 2011, he was a 13/8 "all star." Now two years later he's 17/9?

Simply put, put Marc in the Spurs offense and you will see him beast. SAS are 6th in pace. Memphis is 29th of 30 teams. LINK

Pace inflates stats son.

[LkrFan]

Probably the 2nd best big in the league right now behind Duncan.

And that's not my homerism speaking. Duncan has been in stroke this year on both ends of the court, and should've won DPOY, but I think his comparatively lower minutes compared to Gasol and the games his missed due to injury/rest is why he didn't.

Cry Havoc won't answer so I'll ask you. Would Duncan put up the same numbers in Memphis? Bonus question: would Marc's numbers e as a Spur?

[midnightpulp]

Cry Havoc won't answer so I'll ask you. Would Duncan put up the same numbers in Memphis? Bonus question: would Marc's numbers e as a Spur?

I think Duncan's scoring would drop a couple of points in Memphis, but his rebounding and blocks would remain virtually the same. Even adjusting for pace, Duncan's a flat out better rebounder with a 5% higher rebound rate.

Gasol would probably be close to a 20 ppg scorer in San Antonio (since he's younger, his minutes wouldn't be managed like Duncan's, so he'd probably play 35-37 minutes a game and he'd get more easy points in SA's system), but I don't think his rebounding/blocks increases that much. Gasol has never averaged more than 10 boards a game, even before Memphis was a grit-and-grind team.

By any measure this year: stats, advanced stats, the eye test, Duncan has been the better player.

However, Gasol is on the rise.

[100%duncan]

Not backpedaling in the least. Answer my question: would Duncan put up the same numbers in Memphis? The answer is no. Pop, to his credit, changed the offense up they last few years. This caused Duncan to put up better numbers. I mean, just in 2011, he was a 13/8 "all star." Now two years later he's 17/9?

Simply put, put Marc in the Spurs offense and you will see him beast. SAS are 6th in pace. Memphis is 29th of 30 teams. LINK

Pace inflates stats son.

Talkin about stats when you can't answer directly how Duncan has clearly been better on Gasol in almost every aspect of the game. And yes you are backpedaling when you start talking about team systems obviously Spurs' system is waaaaaaay better than Memphis' but we're talking about individual numbers here son and you started it so don't go running to the "Duncan has a better system surrounding him " card.

[Brunodf]

Not backpedaling in the least. Answer my question: would Duncan put up the same numbers in Memphis? The answer is no. Pop, to his credit, changed the offense up they last few years. This caused Duncan to put up better numbers. I mean, just in 2011, he was a 13/8 "all star." Now two years later he's 17/9?

Simply put, put Marc in the Spurs offense and you will see him beast. SAS are 6th in pace. Memphis is 29th of 30 teams. LINK

Pace inflates stats son.

Exacly, Pop changed the system, Duncan wasn't getting as many touches in the post, that's why his ppg were so low in 2011.
Now he adapted his game to this new system(shooting more jumpers).
Every % stat take into account pace.
And Duncan played pretty well when he was the centerpiece of Spurs offense in the past(despite the low pace)

[TDfan2007]

Cry Havoc won't answer so I'll ask you. Would Duncan put up the same numbers in Memphis? Bonus question: would Marc's numbers e as a Spur?

I answered you, but you didn't address that post since it diced your "argument" up. Also, someone else addressed rebound rate, which you seem to have a really tough time understanding.

I showed you earlier how PER takes pace into account, and here is an example:

2003 Duncan, on one of the most slow-paced, "boring" teams in the league: PER 27.0

Marc Gasol, in his prime now, on one of the most slow-paced teams in the league: 19.57

And before you say it, no I'm not comparing prime Timmy to prime Gasol. I'm merely showing you that PER doesn't discriminate against players on slow-paced teams.

Again, Gasol isn't even the best rebounding/scoring big on his own team. Overall though, I'd say he's the 2nd or 3rd best big in the league, so you're not far off.

[LkrFan]

I think Duncan's scoring would drop a couple of points in Memphis, but his rebounding and blocks would remain virtually the same. Even adjusting for pace, Duncan's a flat out better rebounder with a 5% higher rebound rate.

Gasol would probably be close to a 20 ppg scorer in San Antonio (since he's younger, his minutes wouldn't be managed like Duncan's, so he'd probably play 35-37 minutes a game and he'd get more easy points in SA's system), but I don't think his rebounding/blocks increases that much. Gasol has never averaged more than 10 boards a game, even before Memphis was a grit-and-grind team.

By any measure this year: stats, advanced stats, the eye test, Duncan has been the better player.

However, Gasol is on the rise.

Fair enough...but:

Since 1996-97, Marc Gasol is tied for the fourth-highest defensive efficiency amongst DPOY award winners, according to ESPN Stats & Info.

Boiled down: he is the best defender in the NBA & is a better defender than Duncan right now.

and... FGA comparison: Duncan: 50.2%. Marc G: 49.4% - BIG difference there!

and... Passing? Marc got there 4apg to 2.7apg

and... Rebounding? TD has to compete with Tiago ter and his 6.4 rpg. Marc has to compete with Z-Bo's 11.2 rpg. I'd argue if Memphis played at a higher pace (more opp for snatching rebs off misses) or if he wasn't competing with an elite rebounder, he'd be a double double machine... Like David Lee. Duncan's rebounds are inflated just like David Lee. You think David Lee averages 11.2 rebs in Memphis? I don't. He gets them boards due to GS being 4th in pace (vs SAS being 6th).

and... TD outscored him by a whopping 3.8ppg. What's that - a difference of about 2 layups/game?

Now swatting - I'll give TD. But that's it. Change the teams and I guarantee you would agree that Marc Gasol is the best big man in the game. Even though you won't publicly admit it on ST.

[LkrFan]

Exacly, Pop changed the system, Duncan wasn't getting as many touches in the post, that's why his ppg were so low in 2011.
Now he adapted his game to this new system(shooting more jumpers).
Every % stat take into account pace.
And Duncan played pretty well when he was the centerpiece of Spurs offense in the past(despite the low pace)

Put Marc in place of Duncan and he would surpass all of his 2013 Grizzly stats. There's no doubt in my mind.

#PACEMATTERS

[LkrFan]

I answered you, but you didn't address that post since it diced your "argument" up. Also, someone else addressed rebound rate, which you seem to have a really tough time understanding.

I showed you earlier how PER takes pace into account, and here is an example:

2003 Duncan, on one of the most slow-paced, "boring" teams in the league: PER 27.0

Marc Gasol, in his prime now, on one of the most slow-paced teams in the league: 19.57

And before you say it, no I'm not comparing prime Timmy to prime Gasol. I'm merely showing you that PER doesn't discriminate against players on slow-paced teams.

Again, Gasol isn't even the best rebounding/scoring big on his own team. Overall though, I'd say he's the 2nd or 3rd best big in the league, so you're not far off.

Rebounding rate goes up due to pace. More FGAs usually means more chances at rebounds. There is a significant correlation between pace and ppg it seems. SAS are 4th in ppg and coincidently 6th in pace. Memphis? 26th and 29th respectively.

PER may not discriminate, but it appears your style of offense does (pace).

[LkrFan]

Actually, if you put TD next to an elite rebounder like Z-Bo, his rebounding numbers would drop. As it stands right now, he only has Marc by like 2/game - competing with the likes of the Red Rocket! and Tiago ter.

[Brunodf]

Put Marc in place of Duncan and he would surpass all of his 2013 Grizzly stats. There's no doubt in my mind.

#PACEMATTERS

I can't find stats to back up "the best big man in the game" so i changed my speech to coulda/woulda/shoulda/if/speculation
You really don't know how to troll people

[LkrFan]

I can't find stats to back up "the best big man in the game" so i changed my speech to coulda/woulda/shoulda/if/speculation
You really don't know how to troll people

I didn't change jack. You guys brought in stats. i refuted them with my own. Now go back upstairs GNSF before I take off my belt and tear det ass a new one.

[LarryDavid]

Rebounding rate goes up due to pace. More FGAs usually means more chances at rebounds. There is a significant correlation between pace and ppg it seems. SAS are 4th in ppg and coincidently 6th in pace. Memphis? 26th and 29th respectively.

PER may not discriminate, but it appears your style of offense does (pace).

Here are stats based on pace. (Per 100 Possessions). What's your next argument?
http://stats.nba.com/playerVsPlayer....100Possessions

	Tim Duncan	Marc Gasol
FG%	50.2%	49.4%
REB	15.8	10.7
AST	4.3	5.5
BLK	4.2	2.4
PTS	28.3	19.3
+/-	10.6	7.5

[100%duncan]

I didn't change jack. You guys brought in stats. i refuted them with my own. Now go back upstairs GNSF before I take off my belt and tear det ass a new one.

No you didn't. You backpedaled and played the "what if" and "Spurs system>Grizz System so it benefits TD" cards.

[Cry Havoc]

at first I thought you were trolling, but then I realized that you have to be somewhat intelligent to troll.

The rebound rate that he showed you most definitely accounts for pace, but just for the sake of argument let's throw another stat in there...

PER accounts for pace. Let's have a look at those numbers:

Duncan: 24.45 (#6 in the league)
Gasol: 19.57 (#34 )

Marc is a fantastic defender and passer, with a sweet jumper, but he's not the best big in the game. , he's not even the best rebounding/scoring big on his own team.

Duncan is the better scorer, rebounder, and leader. Passing and overall defense are a wash. There are only 2 things in all of basketball that Marc does better than Duncan: pick and roll D and FT shooting (barely).

Cry Havoc won't answer so I'll ask you. Would Duncan put up the same numbers in Memphis? Bonus question: would Marc's numbers e as a Spur?

Unsurprising that you are illiterate considering that you are a Lakers fan.

[LkrFan]

Here are stats based on pace. (Per 100 Possessions). What's your next argument?
http://stats.nba.com/playerVsPlayer....100Possessions

	Tim Duncan	Marc Gasol
FG%	50.2%	49.4%
REB	15.8	10.7
AST	4.3	5.5
BLK	4.2	2.4
PTS	28.3	19.3
+/-	10.6	7.5

Duncan averaged over 25ppg ONCE in his entire career and never averaged even 13rpg. GTFO with this BS link.

[LkrFan]

No you didn't. You backpedaled and played the "what if" and "Spurs system>Grizz System so it benefits TD" cards.

Truth hurts. Facts check:

Spurs are 4th in ppg
Spurs are 6th in pace
Spurs are 1st in apg
Spurs are 1st in 3pt%
Spurs are 2nd in FG%
Spurs are 3rd in FT%

In short, the Spurs are an offensive juggernaut. They are no less than 6th in 6 major offensive categories. You think having a good offensive skillet on a great offensive team won't positively impact your numbers? K

[Latarian Milton]

guy's ceiling is no higher than a prime kaman imho.

[midnightpulp]

Duncan averaged over 25ppg ONCE in his entire career and never averaged even 13rpg. GTFO with this BS link.

Duncan's never played on team in his prime that averaged that many possessions.

Why are you back to your posting? I know you have to rep the best player on the Lakers farm team, but we're showing you that even if you adjusted for pace, Duncan's stats would still be better.

You'd embarrass yourself much less if you just admitted you were wrong. Feel free to bring all the qualitative arguments for Gasol that you can, but Duncan wins the hard stat argument in every conceivable way.

[LkrFan]

Duncan's never played on team in his prime that averaged that many possessions.

Why are you back to your posting? I know you have to rep the best player on the Lakers farm team, but we're showing you that even if you adjusted for pace, Duncan's stats would still be better.

You'd embarrass yourself much less if you just admitted you were wrong. Feel free to bring all the qualitative arguments for Gasol that you can, but Duncan wins the hard stat argument in every conceivable way.

Expected. This is a Spurs' board, after all.

What those stats don't account for is if Gasol played on 2012-2013 Spurs' team - instead of Grizzlies'. If it does, I'll admit I'm wrong. Deal?

[HarlemHeat37]

Marc Gasol's scoring efficiency from the field is relatively weak for a C that plays his style of play(he's efficient overall because of his FT shooting, though), despite having a 19% usage rate, which is lower than both Mike Conley and Zach Randolph..

Gasol is essentially the 3rd scoring option on a mediocre offense..

Duncan had a 28% usage rate this year, an extremely high load, yet still produced better offensive numbers, despite Parker's declining play in the 2nd half of the season, and Ginobili being terrible all year..

Duncan's defensive metrics were better, too..let's not ignore the fact that Marc Gasol has the best defensive backcourt in the NBA in front of him, tbh..

Gasol should be in the discussion with players like Griffin, Bosh and Aldridge, rather than Duncan or even current Nowitzki, tbh..

[LarryDavid]

Duncan averaged over 25ppg ONCE in his entire career and never averaged even 13rpg. GTFO with this BS link.

GTFO out here with your 3rd grade reading comprehension. These numbers aren't PER GAME. They are based on PACE. Per 100 possessions. #PACEMATTERS remember? Other than Assists, Duncan is still having a superior year than Gasol.

[LkrFan]

I think Duncan's scoring would drop a couple of points in Memphis, but his rebounding and blocks would remain virtually the same. Even adjusting for pace, Duncan's a flat out better rebounder with a 5% higher rebound rate.

Gasol would probably be close to a 20 ppg scorer in San Antonio (since he's younger, his minutes wouldn't be managed like Duncan's, so he'd probably play 35-37 minutes a game and he'd get more easy points in SA's system), but I don't think his rebounding/blocks increases that much. Gasol has never averaged more than 10 boards a game, even before Memphis was a grit-and-grind team.

By any measure this year: stats, advanced stats, the eye test, Duncan has been the better player.

However, Gasol is on the rise.

I forgot to disagree with this in my original reply. TD + elite rebounder (Z-Bo) = less total rebounds. Agree or disagree?

[LkrFan]

GTFO out here with your 3rd grade reading comprehension. These numbers aren't PER GAME. They are based on PACE. Per 100 possessions. #PACEMATTERS remember? Other than Assists, Duncan is still having a superior year than Gasol.

[HarlemHeat37]

I forgot to disagree with this in my original reply. TD + elite rebounder (Z-Bo) = less total rebounds. Agree or disagree?

Z-Bo's presence also = Marc Gasol frequently being guarded by the inferior defensive big on the opposing team, tbh..yet still scoring at a relatively weak rate on lower usage..