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  1. #76
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    Russel will be the second best QB from this draft class, right after Luck and before Kirk Cousins

  2. #77
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    Russel will be the second best QB from this draft class, right after Luck and before Kirk Cousins
    I'm really not getting the deal with Luck. He did throw a truck load of INT's, he couldn't even complete 55% of his passes. Only one starter had a worst completion %. While there's RW winning playoff games, tying TD records, completing 64% of his throws, had the 4th best QB ranking in the league. Came within seconds of playing in the NFC le game.

    Take the names off the two and just list what A (Luck) and B (Russell) did and nobody could side with A.

    A...lost playoff game, completed less than 55% of his throws, threw a ton of INT's
    B...came within seconds of winning two playoff games, completed over 64% of his passes, tied the rookie TD record

    Who is better?
    Last edited by Avante; 05-19-2013 at 12:33 PM.

  3. #78
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    I'm really not getting the deal with Luck. He did throw a truck load of INT's, he couldn't even complete 55% of his passes. Only one starter had a worst completion %. While there's RW winning playoff games, tying TD records, completing 64% of his throws, had the 4th best QB ranking in the league. Came within seconds of playing in the NFC le game.

    Take the names off the two and just list what A (Luck) and B (Russell) did and nobody could side with A.

    A...lost playoff game, completed less than 55% of his throws, threw a ton of INT's
    B...came within seconds of winning two playoff games, completed over 64% of his passes, tied the rookie TD record

    Who is better?
    A is still better.

    You want to completely write out these guys careers based on their rookie year. That's just asinine. Wilson obviously has a better supporting cast at this point.

    But, you'll see in due time...

  4. #79
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    A is still better.

    You want to completely write out these guys careers based on their rookie year. That's just asinine. Wilson obviously has a better supporting cast at this point.

    But, you'll see in due time...
    Well no A is not better. He did nothing better.

    Didn't Luck have Reggie Wayne?

    I realize we are just talking rookie season (obviously) but I saw nothing to even hint that RW won't be the better QB.

    RW did far more in the playoffs, he had by far the better completion %, had less INT's, tied the rookie TD record. What more could he have done, win the SB? Who had a better rookie season counting the playoffs in NFL history? Well it wasn't...Brett Favre, Joe Montana, Peyton Manning, Aaron Rodgers, Drew Brees, Troy Aikman, Tom Brady, Eli Manning, John Elway, Steve Young.
    Last edited by Avante; 05-19-2013 at 09:07 PM.

  5. #80
    The Crominator J.T.'s Avatar
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    According to Avante, Andrew Luck is not as good a QB as Russell Wilson because he had a lower completion percentage.

    THE FACTS:
    -Andrew Luck played behind an offensive line that allowed 41 sacks, a combination of 256 hits, pressures, & sacks and was frequently running from the pocket and throwing on the run. Very low percentage throws. Since then, the Colts have phenomenally upgraded their offensive line in free agency and the draft.

    -Andrew Luck played for the team ranked 26th in total defense. Russell Wilson played for the team ranked 4th in total defense. The QB does not play defense so Avante will tell you this doesn't matter as far as his argument is concerned but it does. When your defense sucks, your offense is almost guaranteed to have to throw the ball a lot more to win games. Since then, the Colts have phenomenally upgraded their defense in free agency and the draft.

    -Accordingly, Andrew Luck attempted 627 passes in 2012. Wilson attempted 393.

    -The Seahawks won 11 games, but really only legitimately won 10 because of the Replacement Ref Game Winning Interception that Wilson threw. The Colts legitimately won 11 games 100% because Andrew Luck was their quarterback.

    -The Seahawks run a version of the West Coast Offense which has an extreme emphasis on high-percentage throws. Andrew Luck had a lower completion percentage because the Colts were running the Bruce Arians offense, which essentially tries to get a 50+ yard play on every drive. That is a low percentage throw for any QB, thus Luck's lower completion percentage. That throw is also a high risk for an interception, thus Luck's higher number of interceptions. In 2013, the Colts are switching to the West Coast Offense under Andrew Luck's OC at Stanford, Pep Hamilton, under whom he completed 70% or more of his passes in his final two NCAA seasons.

    Avante just looks at the stat sheet when he goes on about his Russell Wilson fetish. I have repeatedly pointed out the cir stances under which both QBs played, but the fact that Andrew Luck played for a less talented team in an offense that extremely subjected him to not only a high number of pass attempts, but a high number of low-percentage pass attempts simply flies over his head. When I mention the fact that Wilson's season ended with the ball in the other team's hands on a pass that he threw, I got this response.

    Wilson was seconds away from playing in the NFC le game. Luck one and done. You do know that last pass was a hail mary....right? How many turnovers did Luck have, tons~~~~~~~~
    Hail Mary. A low percentage throw with an extreme propensity toward being intercepted. The same kind of passes Luck was throwing frequently because his team had barely any talent, couldn't play defense, was constantly behind in games and because the offense was designed around going for long passes.
    Last edited by J.T.; 05-19-2013 at 09:27 PM.

  6. #81
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    Bottom line

    Facts are facts!

    RW had the better season and it's not even debatable. RW the 4th rated QB, Luck the 26th ranked.

    I go with reality. RW tying TD records, Luck throwing INT's. RW winning playoff games, Luck losing playoff games. A 64 completion% vs a 54 completion %.

    It's very obvious who had the better season here.

    Now look at who the Seahawks beat and who the Colts beat.

    All we can really do is see how 2013 goes. So let's do that, nobody is giving an inch on 2012.
    Last edited by Avante; 05-19-2013 at 09:49 PM.

  7. #82
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    RW had the better season and it's not even debatable. RW the 4th rated QB, Luck the 26th ranked.
    That has not once ever been what we're debating. You continually perpetuate this myth that Russell Wilson is the Tom Brady of the 2012 draft and in that last post and many others before it, I have continually and factually detailed why Luck's 2012 should not be the measuring stick for his overall skill. Luck on the 2012 Seahawks probably puts up equal or better stats to Wilson "and it's not even debatable." Wilson on the 2012 Colts probably has a broken shoulder and doesn't finish the season.

  8. #83
    The Crominator J.T.'s Avatar
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    Also not to rip off your shtick or anything but your stance in this debate can basically be summed up like this:

    Translation
    ------------------------------
    Andrew Luck isn't a good quarterback because he can't complete 65% of his passes 50+ yards downfield in good coverage.

    All we can really do is see how 2013 goes. So let's do that, nobody is giving an inch on 2012.
    Deal, but if you make ONE MORE thread strawmanning your belief that Wilson is a better QB based on completion percentage whilst completely ignoring Luck's cir stances, I'm going cut you.

  9. #84
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    That has not once ever been what we're debating. You continually perpetuate this myth that Russell Wilson is the Tom Brady of the 2012 draft and in that last post and many others before it, I have continually and factually detailed why Luck's 2012 should not be the measuring stick for his overall skill. Luck on the 2012 Seahawks probably puts up equal or better stats to Wilson "and it's not even debatable." Wilson on the 2012 Colts probably has a broken shoulder and doesn't finish the season.
    You are talking...probably...I'm talking what actually went down, big difference. The facts are all that matters not some..."well if and if and well"....that means nothing. The facts are what I'm talking about.

    who won a playoff game...RW
    who threw for more TD'S...RW
    who threw less INT's...RW
    who had the better completion %...RW
    who had the higher QB rating...RW

    Those are the facts. Now you can...well if...all you want the facts won't change.

  10. #85
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    Also not to rip off your shtick or anything but your stance in this debate can basically be summed up like this:

    Translation
    ------------------------------
    Andrew Luck isn't a good quarterback because he can't complete 65% of his passes 50+ yards downfield in good coverage.



    Deal, but if you make ONE MORE thread strawmanning your belief that Wilson is a better QB based on completion percentage whilst completely ignoring Luck's cir stances, I'm going cut you.
    I'm done making threads.

  11. #86
    The Crominator J.T.'s Avatar
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    You are talking...probably...I'm talking what actually went down, big difference. The facts are all that matters not some..."well if and if and well"....that means nothing. The facts are what I'm talking about.

    who won a playoff game...RW
    who threw for more TD'S...RW
    who threw less INT's...RW
    who had the better completion %...RW
    who had the higher QB rating...RW

    Those are the facts. Now you can...well if...all you want the facts won't change.
    First of all, while statistics can also be facts, those are more statistic than fact at this point. Luck threw for more yards, converted more 3rd & Long situations for 1st downs than any QB not named Tom Brady, and had 7 game winning drives. If the Colts defense could have gotten Luck the ball the way the Seahawks defense did for Wilson, he just might have been able to close that gigantic three touchdown gap between the two of them. You repeatedly ignore Luck's cir stances in an effort to prop up Wilson, as if Luck can't get better and Wilson can't get worse. Think. About. What. You're. Saying.

  12. #87
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    First of all, while statistics can also be facts, those are more statistic than fact at this point. Luck threw for more yards, converted more 3rd & Long situations for 1st downs than any QB not named Tom Brady, and had 7 game winning drives. If the Colts defense could have gotten Luck the ball the way the Seahawks defense did for Wilson, he just might have been able to close that gigantic three touchdown gap between the two of them. You repeatedly ignore Luck's cir stances in an effort to prop up Wilson, as if Luck can't get better and Wilson can't get worse. Think. About. What. You're. Saying.
    I have thought it out. The reason Luck threw for more yards is because he threw more passes. Think of how many TD's RW would have scored if he'd thrown that many times. He threw less but scored more, have you thought of that?

    I;m not budging on this, I have no doubts RW will have the better soph season and the better career. So you might as well accept that and move on.

    Funny old world.

    The Niners lose the SB because of a bad non call and it's.....stop crying, the Ravens won simple as that. Then when it comes to Luck vs RW now it becomes the situation, what happened to....stop crying, RW had the better season simple as that?
    Last edited by Avante; 05-19-2013 at 10:54 PM.

  13. #88
    The Crominator J.T.'s Avatar
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    I have thought it out. The reason Luck threw for more yards is because he threw more passes. Think of how many TD's RW would have scored if he'd thrown that many times. He threw less but scored more, have you thought of that?

    I;m not budging on this, I have no doubts RW will have the better soph season and the better career. So you might as well accept that and move on.

    Funny old world.

    The Niners lose the SB because of a bad non call and it's.....stop crying, the Ravens won simple as that. Then when it comes to Luck vs RW now it becomes the situation, what happened to....stop crying, RW had the better season simple as that?
    Once again I've never disputed that Wilson had a better season. Not once. What I'm disputing is the notion that he's a better player because of the cir stances behind his and Luck's statistics, a topic you wholeheartedly ignore because you know there is weight to what I'm saying and that it's possible I'm going to be right with the Colts improving their team and switching to a more Luck-friendly offense.

  14. #89
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    Once again I've never disputed that Wilson had a better season. Not once. What I'm disputing is the notion that he's a better player because of the cir stances behind his and Luck's statistics, a topic you wholeheartedly ignore because you know there is weight to what I'm saying and that it's possible I'm going to be right with the Colts improving their team and switching to a more Luck-friendly offense.
    I'm not ignoring anything, I'm going with what we actually saw. You're the one talkling about ...well if...maybe if...now that...not me. RW had a better rookie season than anyone we've seen, the guy came oh so close to playing in the le game, he tied records. I'm not going to...yes but if Luck..it simply doesn't work that way. As we found out with..."if that holding penalty was called the Niners...." We go with how things really went down. As of right now RW has accomplished more than Andrew Luck. Ok maybe things change next season, so let's wait and see...ok?

    Funny how a Colt fan would think Andrew Luck is this and that isn't it? I'm a Niner fan why would I care about RW? I'd prefer it if he suckedl

    Ok I'm done with this RW vs Luck thing, especially with a Colt fan.
    Last edited by Avante; 05-20-2013 at 12:32 AM.

  15. #90
    The Crominator J.T.'s Avatar
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    I'm not ignoring anything, I'm going with what we actually saw. You're the one talkling about ...well if...maybe if...now that...not me. RW had a better rookie season than anyone we've seen, the guy came oh so close to playing in the le game, he tied records. I'm not going to...yes but if Luck..it simply doesn't work that way. As we found out with..."if that holding penalty was called the Niners...." We go with how things really went down. As of right now RW has accomplished more than Andrew Luck. Ok maybe things change next season, so let's wait and see...ok?

    Funny how a Colt fan would think Andrew Luck is this and that isn't it? I'm a Niner fan why would I care about RW? I'd prefer it if he suckedl

    Ok I'm done with this RW vs Luck thing, especially with a Colt fan.
    So all these months later (and it has been going on for that long in more than just this thread), this argument is suddenly beneath you because I'm a Colts fan and of course I'd pick my guy in a fight? Pfffffft.

    I'm not talking about what ifs, dip . I'm agreeing with you that Wilson had a better season. I'm not playing the what if game. I am offering real, factual reasons why Andrew Luck's completion percentage was lower, why he had more interceptions and why he threw less touchdowns. You just fall back on "But! But! But! Look at all of Wilson's stat's! They're better than Luck's! So he's better! You can't dispute his stats because they're fact!"

    You can't play that card, then turn around and say "So let's wait and see...ok?" Your argument is entirely made of straw. Wilson's TEAM came "oh so close to playing in the le game." And as for best rookie season we've ever seen, I scoff at you sir.

    Rookie QB records:

    Attempts: Andrew Luck, 627
    Completions: Sam Bradford, 354
    Comp %: Ben Roethlisberger, 66.44
    Touchdowns: T-Peyton Manning, Russell Wilson, 26
    Most Picks (min. 300 attempts): Peyton Manning, 28
    Fewest Picks (min. 300 attempts): Robert Griffin III, 5
    Passing Yards: Andrew Luck, 4374
    Wins: Ben Roethlisberger, 13

    So he ties Manning in passing TDs and it's the greatest rookie QB season of all-time. Gotcha, strawman. Andrew Luck the interception machine threw 10 less interceptions as a rookie than the man he replaced who will be unanimous first ballot Hall of Famer and eternally in "best of all-time" discussions. So since we just go by what we saw, Andrew Luck is a better QB than Peyton Manning.

  16. #91
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    Let's look at wins/tds/lackof INTS/completion %/playoff success/QB ranking....for all the QB's who ever played the game. Who do you think would score the highest if points were attached to some scoring system, yep...RW. Go ahead try and prove that a bogus claim. Yes he had the best rookie season all things considered, prove that statement wrong. I've done the work, prove me wrong!!!

    It is what it is, RW had the greatest season we've seen from any rookie QB, if you don't believe that then find one who had a better season, all things considered. Go ahead check out all those Hall of Famers/legends. Look up Montana. Elway, Marino, Favre, Manning, Brady, Rodgers, Fouts, Aikman, Unitas.....whoever, you will not find one who had a better overall season.

    One more time......as of ..RIGHT NOW...RW has accomplished more than Andrew Luck. Can't really argue or debate actually, simply a fact. Maybe things will change next season, I just doubt it, obviously you don't.

    Now notice how I can talk without the...dip ...and crap like that? Come on man, be cool, ok? Don't be calling me names then try and act like I'm this and that..ok. Be cool or don't be bothering me, got it?

    Actually since you had to resort to name calling I'm done with you on this topic. I'm done with the silliness. Elevate your game.
    Last edited by Avante; 05-20-2013 at 02:11 AM.

  17. #92
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    Whatever, dude. You're a goalpost-moving dip who, despite saying he doesn't give a about anything anyone on this board says to him, is now being oversensitive about being called a dip . Which I've called you like 5,000 times at this point, because you are one. I guess that last post was the straw that broke the camel's back.

    For the last time, it's a team game dip . Russell Wilson is not solely responsible for all of his accomplishments nor is Luck for all of his failures. I have not once said Wilson didn't have a superior rookie season. All I've ever said is that doesn't mean he's a better QB. You said it did, then when I dropped about a chapter's worth of truth bombs on you, you're taking the "end of season awards voter" stance of... "Oh, Wilson had better stats and won a playoff game so Luck's a loser and an interception machine and not better than Wilson."

    You're a delusional, Russell Wilson -worshipping dip . And for some reason you expect people to "be cool" on the SpursTalk NFL board, let alone the Internet period.

    I am being cool, dip . I think you mean to ask me to be nice, which is most definitely off the table at this point with all the "I'm smarter than you" waving you do. Dip .

  18. #93
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    That was sad, but totally predictable, it's either agree with you or you go berserk. You really need to learn out to communicate, that silliness simply doesn't work when dealing with grown ups.

    Like I said I'm done with you on this you are too immature. You really do need to elevate your game, learn how to act.

  19. #94
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    That was sad, but totally predictable, it's either agree with you or you go berserk.
    Pot. Kettle. Dip .

    You really need to learn out to communicate, that silliness simply doesn't work when dealing with grown ups.

    Like I said I'm done with you on this you are too immature. You really do need to elevate your game, learn how to act.
    Once again, me calling you dip didn't bother you until less than two hours ago so once again you adjust your stance because you're out of ammo and need to give the illusion that you came out on top. You won't walk away from this conversation any more than I won't cease calling you Captain Copout and Deputy Dip because you say one thing and do another constantly. You have some pathological need to respond to any comment anyone makes to you even if you claim you are done with the conversation because you can't possibly go to sleep unless you have the last word.

    I told you when we first came here that this NFL board has an ongoing culture that has been brewing for many years and that the dip brand of conversation you're trying to inject into it wasn't going to jive. Times have changed, maybe when you were young it wasn't cool to call each other dip and got because those were dirty words Pa would whip you with a switch for saying. It's 2013. We do that here. Gay isn't about being sexual anymore, it's a brand name for stupid . And since a gay person is a got, people who say or do stupid are now gots. I don't know how it's hard to follow. If you don't like it, maybe you should take my initial advice and get the off this board and go find The Old Folks Home For NFL Know It Alls Message Board somewhere else on the internet where you can regale them with your tales of SpursTalk and how there's all these idiot kids who don't know anything about the NFL and call each other gots and dip s all day while you all laugh and smoke cigars and then have heart attacks.

    tl/dr; you're a dip

  20. #95
    Tori Black, Samantha Ryan and Ann Marie Rios.



  21. #96
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    Getting back to the topic.

    I really can't see a more dynamic threesome in todays game that this Seahawk trio.

  22. #97
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    JT eviscerated Avante in this thread

  23. #98
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    JT eviscerated Avante in this thread
    I'm done with the childish behavior. It 's boring. I'm here to talk football. As we can see some are here to play the fool. Time to elevate the level of play here,

  24. #99
    That kid is back on the escalator! Brodie Bruce's Avatar
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    This thread

  25. #100
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    Hmm?

    Tim Tebow in the WWE?

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