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Manu- 2YR 10MIL
AK- 3YR 18MIL
Ellis- 4YR 36MIL
Manu- 2YR 10MIL
AK- 3YR 18MIL
Ellis- 4YR 36MIL
splitter?
Gortat?? lol
Oh to the NO..............
I don't know. He'd be better than current Manu, but I'd rather try to cash in on Iguodala instead. Ellis is not a defender, is a ballhog, and a bad shot jacker.
Yes, he's very talented, but he's one of those guys who has such terrible tendencies that his stats always end impacting the game a lot less than you'd expect them to. And yes, I'm saying he's a terrible defensive player who's chucking and ty defense practically negates his potent offense.
At best he's around #20. Nowhere near top 5.
Neal is likely gone regardless if the Spurs bring in any SG. I'd expect the Spurs to bring Manu back and take over Neal's old role before Neal be brought back and Manu cut.
So Manu-haters actually think Ellis is a better player?
I think that's the ultimate proof of their delusion.
Even 12/13 Manu was a superior player and of course career-wise Ellis doesn't even deserve to be mentioned with him.
Look at all numbers. If anyone really thought Monta was better, there is the proof of your delusion, blind hatred, stupidity whatever it may be.
1) Kobe
2) Monta Ellis
3) LeBron James
He ain't coming here, he has full sleeves for god sakes.
Not even remotely close.
At this point of their careers, Ellis is better. When Manu was 27, he was an all-star and a better player than Monta, but not by much. Monta is right up their with Parker when it comes to being able to penetrate to the basket. The guy is super quick and super athletic. The biggest drawback of him is that he has a tendency to go into chucker mode. But didn't Manu exhibit those same tendency is his career as well.
The Spurs need another playmaker other than Parker right now. If its Ellis, it would be a good move by the Spurs.
Or maybe this shows how far Ginobili's regressed. Spurs fans used to think he was better than Wade a few years ago so the "blind hater" excuse doesn't add up. Ginobili's disastrous post-seasons the past two years have opened a lot of eyes imo.
Old, broken down Manu is worse than Ellis in the prime of his career, yes.
The only person delusional is you if you think that's false.
Pretty good list, but I don't know if Kobe can come back from his injury. If he can't then it's:
1)Monta Ellis
2)Lebron James
3)Danny Green
Stop living in the past. Manu is no longer the 2007 Manu. He is washed up. He is done. He suc*s now. He needs to play a Gary Neal type of minutes role next year and at the veteran's minimum. You're the delusional unrealistic one that doesn't want to admit that Manu is not the same anymore.
Definition of a homer - Someone who shows blind loyalty to a team or organization, typically ignoring any shortcomings or faults they have.
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=homer
This thread
I want to fast forward 10 days so we can see the dust settle and see the same returning starting 5.
So I guess none of you bothered to look at those numbers?
The worst thing about Ellis isn't even his terrible shooting. What it is we'll get to later, but first:
TS%
Manu vs Monta
12/13: 560 vs 493
11/12: 668 vs 493 (518 for GS)
10/11: 581 vs 509
9/10: 584 vs 536
3 point shooting:
Monta is a career .318 three-point shooter vs Manu's .372 This season Monta Ellis shot a pathetic 28 pct attempting 3.8 per game, yes that's worse than Manu's 35 pct attempting 3.9.
Overall he performs this shooting damage (mostly to his own teams) averaging 16.4 field goal attempts during his career. Manu is at 10.6 and of course with a much better true shooting percentage.
Btw Ellis averages more than 3 turnovers per game 5 different seasons during his career. Including this one at 3.1.
oRTG (Offensive Rating, look it up!)
Manu vs Monta
12/13: 107 vs 101 (yes even this season he is better than Ellis)
11/12: 125 vs 101
10/11: 116 vs 107
09/10: 118 vs 99
Career: 115 vs 104
Out of that and dRTG (defensive rating) you can calculate an overall win% Ellis: 11/12: .495 10/11: .531 09/10: .471
If not for the widespread delusion here, it should be needless to say that Manu completely blows those numbers away with: .709, .677 and .705
How about some
PER:
Manu vs Monta
12/13: 19 vs 16.2
11/12: 24.1 vs 17.5
10/11: 21.7 vs 18.6
09/10: 22.5 vs 16.7
Yes there is some value in Ellis assists (though Manu ast% is usually better) but he dominates the ball and volume so much that with his well below league average shooting that his teams are often better with him off the floor.
Manu is a much better offensive player while Ellis does his worst damage to his own teams.
The worst thing about Ellis is actually harder to find in various stats. It's on the defensive end of things. Now obviously Manu also blows him away in defensive rating and in some of the new plus minus stats like RAPM (which for many years, killing the noise, has had Manu consistently as one of the best players in the league) but Ellis arms are so short that he can't guard any shooting guards and for him not to be a major liability you'd have to pair him with big PGs who can guard the other team's twos. The list of starting point guards he can be paired with is actually non existant and partnerships with Curry and Jennings were a disaster. Add that incurable problem to his offensive issues and the guy can arguably be unplayable. That is if you want to win basketball games.
Of course frustrations with Manu can be excused and is sometimes perfectly understandable, but when it's gotten to a point where whatever it is, ignorance, stupidity or lame internet-hate, has gotten so delusional that those very people think MONTA ELLIS of all people is a better basketball player than Ginobili and think a team would be better with Monta than Manu, then it's just inexcucable.
But here is to your delusions^^^^^^
Last edited by Mouth is Bleeding; 07-01-2013 at 10:50 PM.
^Damn...
Good points, but in 2013 I would rather have Monta on my team than an older Manu who appears to be nearly done! Good post and mostly facts there! I like you did your research and put that up. Right now though I would take Monta over him, just off youth alone.
I have no alternate accounts... NONE... timvp can confirm, tbh...
Nice postand the numbers don't lie...some people don't realise they are blinded by their cognitive bias
Most of that doesn't matter for two big reasons. 1: Manu wasn't 37 4 years ago, so his stats outside of last year don't mean a god damn thing. You can throw everything Manu did outside of last year right out the window because he isn't magically going to get several years younger for those stats to be relevant anymore.
Secondly, how bad Manu actually is is somewhat hidden by the fact that he's on a good team. Monta Ellis played for a ty team which means his stats (percentages mostly, which is all you posted) are going to be worse because not only is the defense keyed on him but he has little help.
Manu is surrounded by good shooters and defensive gurus on a team with a great system where he doesn't even have to play very many minutes, and when he does it's against a ty second unit most of the time. Ellis has only played for ty teams. Offensive and defensive ratings, while nice, more reflect the team they're on than the player themselves. The Spurs as a team have an offensive ratings 5 points higher than the Bucks. Last year it was 6 1/2 points higher. With the Warriors, the Spurs had a 3 points higher offensive rating, but the team at least wasn't awful, which is why Ellis' offensive rating was higher with them.
Speaking of Manu's age and skill regression, notice how even the stats you cherry picked because those were the main (possibly only) stats that were in Manu's favor, all regressed to the lowest points in Manu's career since his first and second seasons. A trend which at best we can hope stops rather than continues.
Instead of cherry picking stats which benefit Manu, let's look at all of them.
Games missed since 2011:
Ginobili: 56Ellis: 6
Turnovers per 36 last year (Ellis plays more minutes, so this is more fair than per game stats):
Ginobili: 3.4
Ellis: 3.0
Minutes played, Ginobili/Ellis:
'10: 28.7 vs 41.4
'11: 30.3 vs 40.3
'12: 23.3 vs 36.6
'13: 23.2 vs 37.5
Btw, Ellis led the NBA in minutes in '10 and '11. Manu wasn't even close.
Turnover % Manu/Ellis:
'12: 16.3 vs 13.2
'13: 17.3 vs 13.7
Oh and Manu's playoff stats:
'12: 17.0 PER
'13: 16.5 PER
'12: 19.8 Turnover%
'13: 19.4 Turnover%
'11: 3.5 TOs/36
'12: 3.9 TOs/36
'13: 3.6 TOs/36
'11: 107 Offensive rating
'12: 106 Offensive rating
'13: 102 Offensive rating
Notice the trend of tier PER, tier offensive ratings, increased turnovers.
Yeah, so not only is it not out of the question to expect Manu to be even worse, but it's not out of the question to expect more from Ellis if he got to play in the cushy, king-like mid 20s minutes per game situation Manu has been in rather than have to be a in 40+ minute per game workhorse for ty teams running their offense and taking the brunt of the opposing team's defensive attention all game.
I'd happily take my chances with the 27 year old Ellis with huge room for improvement considering the great and much easier than what he's used to situation he'd be inheriting here, rather than an aging player who's nowhere near what he used to be and completely let his team and Spurs fans everywhere down in the Finals. Yes, he WAS great. Years ago. Now he isn't. Now he's steadily declining and openly talking about how he hates rehabbing and wants to hang it up.
Feel free to post more stats of years ago though. As if your argument is if we should trade current Ginobili for Ginobili from years ago. Anyone would, but it isn't a possibility. It's current ty Manu, or take a shot on a 27 year old athletic player who can both easily take Manu's place or fill in for Parker should disaster strike.
Ellis adds more potential to the team. Definitely has holes in his game (bad defense for starters), but his offense and ballhandling aren't things I'm very concerned with. His efficiency would clearly go up if he got Manu's role, and at least he wouldn't have to guard stars for 40 minutes a game anymore.
Manu is just getting worse and played worse and worse as the postseason went on last year. PER went down, efficiency went down, GameScore went down (really far down), turnover% went up. Just about everything got worse and worse, until he finally sucked 5/7 games including a huge disaster game in game 6 which cost us the le.
I'm sure someone wasted their time reading KiddK's post...but I've heard that ty song one too many times to bother with listening again
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