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Well, numerous people besides myself, feel Manu's comments since the finals don't reflect someone who is really beat up over it and understands how bad he really was.
The contract further cements that frame of mind.
It doesn't matter which word he used. He knows he wasn't good enough, and he clearly felt responsible for letting his team down. If there was ever an argument over semantics, this would be it.the part where you know, he was not ok. Where he was awful. The part where TP and TD taking much less than market value (to where there is no debate like there is with Manu) to help the team.
Well, numerous people besides myself, feel Manu's comments since the finals don't reflect someone who is really beat up over it and understands how bad he really was.
The contract further cements that frame of mind.
Manu's fire diminished once he also had kids
They cheer him up too quickly after losses
Ouch!I've defended Manu but ..............@ so-so
If he misses the flight to Miami, we'd be contemplating the elusive back-to-back, tbh.
We still don't know what, if any, difference there was between initial offers from the two sides. There's been an awful lot of supposition based upon nothing much at all.
And while TD certainly could have demanded and received more, there were plenty of folks last summer who thought his deal was too big (and not just the lunatic fringe). Tony's discount is also wildly overblown. People have forgotten the cir stances that existed at the moment Tony agreed to his extension. His leverage vis-a-vis the Spurs at that point in time was extremely limited.
I understand why people are upset, but I just think they're making too much of little things. Just like people in the Green/Lebron thread saying Danny should be off the team because he had the nerve to go out right after losing. The fact that Manu didn't start sobbing in a press conference weeks after the Finals doesn't suggest to me he wasn't upset over how he played. The fact that he took a fair contract while the team got the players they wanted doesn't suggest that to me, either.
What do people want Manu to say? "I suck, I'm old, I'm the worst person on Earth and I feel like killing myself"
He accepted that he played his worst when the team needed him most and that he was hurt. What more do you want? Do you want him to incinerate himself? He's still a human you know with an ego and all that.
I would like to hear Pop's mea culpa about playing Manu too much and leaving Tim on the bench at the end of game 6 and not playing Boris enough on game 7.
I want to hear our best player excuse for going 9 for 35 in the last two games, and the blatant attempt at stealing finals' MVP at the end of game 6.
I'm sick and tired of people blaming the finals loss almost entirely on Manu when others have had just as much if not more blame than him.
You keep saying that last part and it bothers me. You are being intellectually dishonest. Unless you are saying that realistically the Spurs set out this off season to spend most of the MLE on Belinelli/Pendergraph as their option A.
Sure there was debate about TD, but nothing close to the Manu debate. Market value is always going to have a range and most know that Tim's contract was better than Manu's with regards to market value. While I somewhat agree about TP, he still could have (in many people's opinion) gotten a much better deal. The fact he didn't have leverage (I disagree there too since letting him go meant blowing it up) isn't a bad point. What is the bad point is Manu did have the leverage and used it.
It's not solely on Manu - he's just the main reason the Spurs lost. And no, people don't expect him to say he wants to kill himself. That's hyperbole. But there was a time when Manu would even have one bad regular season game and he looked and sounded like he did want to kill himself. This isn't that any more.What do people want Manu to say? "I suck, I'm old, I'm the worst person on Earth and I feel like killing myself"
He accepted that he played his worst when the team needed him most and that he was hurt. What more do you want? Do you want him to incinerate himself? He's still a human you know with an ego and all that.
I would like to hear Pop's mea culpa about playing Manu too much and leaving Tim on the bench at the end of game 6 and not playing Boris enough on game 7.
I want to hear our best player excuse for going 9 for 35 in the last two games, and the blatant attempt at stealing finals' MVP at the end of game 6.
I'm sick and tired of people blaming the finals loss almost entirely on Manu when others have had just as much if not more blame than him.
They probably did. They might have wanted to throw the MLE at someone else, but that not happening is not Ginobili's fault. The fact that the Spurs kept Bonner suggests they never planned to go under the cap, so Ginobili "not taking a discount" means very little in the grand scheme of things. The only reason why people are acting like it does is because they keep saying, "Well the Spurs could amnesty Bonner and let Neal go, and then..." But the team doesn't seem inclined to get rid of Bonner, and they felt Neal's role was so important that they needed to spend a good chunk of change to fill it. They also felt that Pendergraph was important enough to eat the rest of their exception.
People are mad at Manu due to a hypothetical scenario that we have no reason to believe was ever going to happen. There's nothing logical about positing the team breaking from their usual habits to fulfill our free-agent fantasies.
bait, tbh...You're a very good poster DPG..
But this is utter Bull...
Still not over game 6?
Wow. I just can't believe you even believe that. You might believe the MLE part vs going under the cap. Ok, I don't agree, but I can see the argument. But there is absolutely no way you believe Belinelli/Pendegraph were option A. I refuse to believe you think that is true and I believe you are just using what has happened to then trace the steps backwards and justify it.
If Coach Popovitch had not yanked out Duncan twice in the last 28 seconds of game 6 with a 5 point lead, the Spurs would have won the championship, and Ginobili's contract would not be that controversial. Does Pop take cuts in pay when he screws up? Ginobili is still a very dangerous player when he is on the court. He is the only player I know of that can make both coaches in their pants with his style of play.
Arguable, tbh. What's a bigger up: Manu passing it to Heat players or Pop leaving him on the court even after all those TO's? And as bad as Manu's TO's were if Tony wouldn't have decided to go chucker mode Spurs would have probably won that game.
I think the team had three priorities this off-season: Replace Neal, replace Blair and replacing McGrady. Provided that they wanted to stay over the cap, they would have to use sign-and-trades or the MLE to do those things. I honestly thought they were going to use the MLE on a backup three and call it an off-season while hoping for internal improvement. But the team clearly targeted these players. They might not have been the first choices, but they were essentially the plan.
What is not that easy to assume is what you're assuming, which is that the team intended to use cap space this off-season. Keeping Bonner suggested that wasn't going to happen before Ginobili was even back in the States to sign his deal.
I really don't want to beat this dead horse much more, but that is a presumption that, while it fits the facts we know, is hardly the only plausible conclusion to be drawn from those facts. I get that people are mad at Manu (my daughter, who loves Manu, keeps asking me "why was Manu even in the game?"), but demonizing him for this contract goes too far for me.
And Tony didn't have much leverage in October, 2010. He was coming off of his worst season, the Spurs had been swept, Tim looked done, and the lockout was looming. Tony made a very sensible business decision to lock in the best offer the Spurs were willing to make at the time. His other choice was to play out the 2010-11 season and take his chances under the new CBA. He chose to take the sure thing and has wildly outplayed his contract. In many ways, Tony was simply the victim of poor timing with the length of his first contract extension. If he had been a free agent in 2009 or 2010, he may very well be playing under a max deal right now. Not necessarily in San Antonio, either.
I agree with what you said about Parker. People seem to keep forgetting that Tony did a good deal of damage in crunch time by calling his own number when he shouldn't have. I also think that Ginobili should have been taken out. But when you're a star player, it's always your fault when you mess up on the court. Ginobili's poor showing is entirely his fault. It's not on Pop that he trusted his former star to get in done one more time.
Drafting a draft and stash and amnesty on Bonner was more of a cap move than waiving him. Knowing what Manu was going to take salary wise early was critical to cap space as well.
Also, there it is. You don't think Beli/Pend were really the number one options, just options. Also, why would the Spurs go into the off season to replace Neal when they can match any deal he gets? That would only happen if they heard/knew something that suggested they couldn't match then they had to go to plan b or c or whatever. Not plan A.
I haven't been paying attention to the Manu threads in the off-season, but it seems like most of this forum has been ting on him in every thread
Personally, I don't have a problem with Ginobili's contract..I don't believe the Spurs would have given him that much money if they had big plans to sign a notable name, tbh..I also don't think Manu takes the money if the Spurs tell him they have a plan to sign a big name that will help the team win a le, tbh..
I also figured they would pay him, considering he's been under-paid throughout his career, tbh..
I don't blame Manu for his atrocious series, tbh..I blame the coach that took Duncan out when they needed a rebound, the coach that kept Ginobili in a role that he clearly can't fill anymore..the coach that should have implemented Kawhi as the #3 option when the fans were asking for it since January, tbh..
A coach that admitted that he doesn't run plays for Kawhi and sounded regretful about it, tbh..
Ginobili playing 25 per game is fine, but he shouldn't be a primary facilitator an creator, especially when throughout the playoffs, Leonard had no problems creating for himself in the post and on the wing, tbh..
There were reports that the Spurs were aware that Neal's price was more than they were willing to pay. you can find them in the Belinelli thread.
Huh? If that was the case, why would Woj say the Spurs want Neal and Belinelli?
The coaching was pretty horrible but considering that they didn't and still don't have anyone else to take the role that was given to Manu as the facilitator makes for a questionable offseason and the fact that the Spurs never change anything mid season also means that if something isn't working they'll just stick with it in hopes it will finally work.I haven't been paying attention to the Manu threads in the off-season, but it seems like most of this forum has been ting on him in every thread
Personally, I don't have a problem with Ginobili's contract..I don't believe the Spurs would have given him that much money if they had big plans to sign a notable name, tbh..I also don't think Manu takes the money if the Spurs tell him they have a plan to sign a big name that will help the team win a le, tbh..
I also figured they would pay him, considering he's been under-paid throughout his career, tbh..
I don't blame Manu for his atrocious series, tbh..I blame the coach that took Duncan out when they needed a rebound, the coach that kept Ginobili in a role that he clearly can't fill anymore..the coach that should have implemented Kawhi as the #3 option when the fans were asking for it since January, tbh..
A coach that admitted that he doesn't run plays for Kawhi and sounded regretful about it, tbh..
They do need to run plays for Kawhi but I don't know exactly how much of the offense will get tweaked in order to get him the ball. TP runs a lot of the 1st team stuff and Manu comes off the bench and runs it.. Do they actually create a kawhi package this offseason?
In 2011-12, Diaw and Jackson were added to the team and the rotation mid season.
In 2012-13, Splitter was moved from the bench to the starting lineup mid season.
Actually, IIRC, the other concern I brought up mid-season was the extreme reliance of the offense on the pick & roll... as you state, the lack of diversity there came back to haunt us against the best pick & roll defense in the league...I haven't been paying attention to the Manu threads in the off-season, but it seems like most of this forum has been ting on him in every thread
Personally, I don't have a problem with Ginobili's contract..I don't believe the Spurs would have given him that much money if they had big plans to sign a notable name, tbh..I also don't think Manu takes the money if the Spurs tell him they have a plan to sign a big name that will help the team win a le, tbh..
I also figured they would pay him, considering he's been under-paid throughout his career, tbh..
I don't blame Manu for his atrocious series, tbh..I blame the coach that took Duncan out when they needed a rebound, the coach that kept Ginobili in a role that he clearly can't fill anymore..the coach that should have implemented Kawhi as the #3 option when the fans were asking for it since January, tbh..
A coach that admitted that he doesn't run plays for Kawhi and sounded regretful about it, tbh..
Ginobili playing 25 per game is fine, but he shouldn't be a primary facilitator an creator, especially when throughout the playoffs, Leonard had no problems creating for himself in the post and on the wing, tbh..
I don't expect the Spurs to go away from it, but bringing some more playcalling for Kawhi will hopefully alleviate that...
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