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  1. #1
    e^(i*pi) + 1 = 0 MannyIsGod's Avatar
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    Saudi and Israeli studies show that most foreign fighters were not terrorists before Iraq war.


    Two new studies, one by the Saudi government and one by an Israeli think tank, which "painstakingly analyzed the backgrounds and motivations of hundreds of foreigners entering Iraq to fight the United States" have found that most foreign fighters in Iraq were not terrorists before the Iraq war, but were "radicalized by the war itself." The Boston Globe reported on Sunday that the studies "cast doubt" on claims by President Bush that terrorists have "seized on the opportunity to make Iraq the 'central front' in a battle against the United States."
    However, interrogations of nearly 300 Saudis captured while trying to sneak into Iraq and case studies of more than three dozen others who blew themselves up in suicide attacks show that most were heeding the calls from clerics and activists to drive infidels out of Arab land, according to a study by Saudi investigator Nawaf Obaid, a US-trained analyst who was commissioned by the Saudi government and given access to Saudi officials and intelligence. A separate Israeli analysis [by Global Research in International Affairs] of 154 foreign fighters compiled by a leading terrorism researcher found that despite the presence of some senior Al Qaeda operatives who are organizing the volunteers, 'the vast majority of [non-Iraqi] Arabs killed in Iraq have never taken part in any terrorist activity prior to their arrival in Iraq.'
    The Globe also reports that American intelligence officials and terrorism experts have a very similar picture of these fighters: that prior to the Iraq war, they were not extremists who wanted to attack the US in an Al Qaeda-like manner, but "are part of a new generation of terrorists responding to calls to defend their fellow Muslims from 'crusaders and 'infidels.' "
    'The president is right that Iraq is a main front in the war on terrorism, but this is a front we created,' said Peter Bergen, a terrorism specialist at the nonpartisan New America Foundation, a Washington think tank.
    Columnist Terry Neal of The Washington Post, talked to Stephen Flynn, a senior fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations and a former US Coast Guard commander, whose recent book, as well as his articles in the Council's journal Foreign Affairs, argue that Iraq is a "phony war" based on Mr. Bush assertions' that we have to fight the terrorists there rather than here. Mr. Flynn believes that by diverting so many resources to the war in Iraq, we've not only helped to create more terrorists, but that "America remains astonishingly vulnerable to attacks from Al Qaeda, which has morphed under Bush's watch, from an organization to a worldwide movement ..." He says the recent attacks in London show how patient Al Qaeda has become, using the three cell approach: The first cell is the leadership cell, the second cell is the reconnaissance team, and the third is the 'action' team.
    Iraq has not changed that equation one bit, Flynn argues. It has only diverted resources from the more pragmatic approach of targeting and hunting down terrorists around the world and, even more important, bolstering domestic security ... The US administration and its hawks are stuck in a 'state-centric perspective, cold war idea that deterrence is about overwhelming power and offense. But that has nothing to do with the overwhelming reality of this threat.'
    In the United Kingdom, The Belfast Telegram reports that the respected Royal Ins ute of International Affairs, known as Chatham House, and the Economic and Social Research Council, have said that British involvement in Iraq and Afghanistan "have put Britain at a greater risk of attack." The Chatham House report, issued Monday, also said that Britain's support for the US did not create an equal partnership, but instead turned Britain into a "passenger compelled to leave the steering to the ally in the driving seat".
    Chatham House warned that Iraq had created difficulties for the UK and the coalition. 'It gave a boost to the Al Qaeda network's propaganda, recruitment and fundraising, caused a major split in the coalition, provided an ideal targeting and training area for Al Qaeda-linked terrorists, and deflected resources that could have been deployed to assist the Karzai government [in Afghanistan] and bring bin Laden to justice,' it said.
    Both British Prime Minister Tony Blair and Foreign Secretary Jack Straw reacted strongly to the report by Chatham House. The Guardian reports that Mr. Blair said the recent attack on London was the result of fanatics who subscribed to an "evil ideology" rather than opposition to any policy and that it would be " 'misunderstanding of a catastrophic' order to think that if we changed our behavior they would change theirs." Mr. Straw also denied that Britain's support for the US made it more of a target for terrorists. "I'm astonished that Chatham House is now saying that we should not have stood shoulder to shoulder with our long-standing allies in the United States," he said.

    http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0718/dailyUpdate.html

  2. #2
    Injured Reserve Vashner's Avatar
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    We created it by plan. WTF does the media want us to do give our whole 100% battleplan to them so they can run it as a streamer on CNN 24/7.

    Again this is a case of crack pipe.. if we can't fight a ing war without secrets then ... Hey remember Geraldo drawing invasion plans with a stick in the sand?

    Bush has a ing plan. to build iraq into a big ing cheese bait .. roaches come in but they don't come out. ...

    WMD excuse is like a lawyer using a "technicality" to get excuse to engage. Real reason is to kill radical islam base and get next to Iraq, Syria and Saudi.

    IT'S ING BRILLIANT hahahaha

  3. #3
    Injured Reserve Vashner's Avatar
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    Ok this part is messed up
    In the United Kingdom, The Belfast Telegram reports that the respected Royal Ins ute of International Affairs, known as Chatham House, and the Economic and Social Research Council, have said that British involvement in Iraq and Afghanistan "have put Britain at a greater risk of attack." The Chatham House report, issued Monday, also said that Britain's support for the US did not create an equal partnership, but instead turned Britain into a "passenger compelled to leave the steering to the ally in the driving seat".
    So in WWII this is the EXACT ing excuse pussies here in the States used to not piss off Hitler.. while he was planning his final solution and killing millions of Russian.

    If we did like BUSH and went in early we would NOT of had to climb the walls of France and die all stupid on the beach.

    If the USA did what Bush did in IRaq in WWII we could of saved 5 million Jews and millions of Russians. Not to mention lot less casualties having to push them all the way back from France.

  4. #4
    e^(i*pi) + 1 = 0 MannyIsGod's Avatar
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    Well, thats person number one that would probably fail the reading portion of the TASK test. Would anyone else like to step up to the plate?

  5. #5
    Bombs Away! AFE7FATMAN's Avatar
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    I GOT IT MANNY

    We can talk to all these Radical Islamist, OBL's, So called Religious leaders, heads of government in Iran, Syria, just like John Kerry and the French want to and have

    PEACE in Our time

    just like Neville Chamberlain.

  6. #6
    e^(i*pi) + 1 = 0 MannyIsGod's Avatar
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    Yes, I remember that part from the initial paragraph AFE. Oh wait, it's not there.

    So would anyone actually care to address that these studies are saying that we created the problem we are now trying to solve in Iraq?

    I understand that you guys say this was our plan, but how intelligent is lighting a fire simply for the purpose of putting it out? If you want to argue that this is merely a by product of a larger goal - instilling democracy in Iraq - then that at least has some possible ground to stand on but do not try to feed me bull when there is proof counteracting it in the initial post.

    So no, don't say the purpose or Iraq was to fight terrorists in their backyard because as I've said for quite some time now the terrorists we are fighting in Iraq were created by the invasion.

  7. #7
    Bombs Away! AFE7FATMAN's Avatar
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    OK Manny in simple terms and I'm sure people are going to get pissed


    We went into Iraq because GWB wanted to get the Man who tried to kill his Daddy and who had invaded his neighbor. It didn't matter that we had supported this man in his war against Iran. The man was evil and had used chemical weapons on his own people. We had been attacked and we had to strike back or again look like pussies to the rest of the world. My Opinion


    Is anyone here aware of the fact the we supported the Taliban in Afganistan in 1980.

    BTW all of the terrost in Iraq are not inported. Some are fighting because their homeland has been invaded-as they understand it. SOme are fighting because their
    religious leaders are telling them to do so.

    Sorry-short of time I'm at work

  8. #8
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    Is anyone here aware of the fact the we supported the Taliban in Afganistan in 1980.
    The U.S. supported the mujahadeen (sp?), not the Taliban.


    Between the clerics preaching their hate (what else is new) and the recruits(who evidently were already on the fence), the war just made their true feelings show. They would have done this eventually. The Iraq war just sped it up. Time to turn them into worm food with anyone else who is a radical Islamist.

  9. #9
    JEBO TE! Clandestino's Avatar
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    saddam hussein funded terrorists..there is no doubt about that..

  10. #10
    e^(i*pi) + 1 = 0 MannyIsGod's Avatar
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    saddam hussein funded terrorists..there is no doubt about that..
    Who said anything to the contrary? Anyone here will acknowledge the money that he gave to Hamas. However, even an Israeli - they might know a thing or 2 about Hamas - think tank says that the problem we are now solving is one of our creation. Did you read the article?

  11. #11
    e^(i*pi) + 1 = 0 MannyIsGod's Avatar
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    The U.S. supported the mujahadeen (sp?), not the Taliban.


    Between the clerics preaching their hate (what else is new) and the recruits(who evidently were already on the fence), the war just made their true feelings show. They would have done this eventually. The Iraq war just sped it up. Time to turn them into worm food with anyone else who is a radical Islamist.
    So what do you know that these organizations don't?

  12. #12
    Still Hates Small Ball Spurminator's Avatar
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    Without knowing how many terrorists are typically "first time terrorists" in non-Iraq related attacks, there's not really a basis for comparison. It would seem, with the popularity of suicide bombings as a method of attack, that a lot of terrorists would be first (and last) time terrorists...

  13. #13
    Seek True Love, within. bigzak25's Avatar
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    IF the war radicalized most foreign fighters in iraq, then by that same token, they should calm the down when the majority of the U.S. military departs.

    in the meantime? terrorists and any anti-american radicals willing to die for their cause can get their wish granted on foreign soil instead of American.

    two thumbs up.

  14. #14
    e^(i*pi) + 1 = 0 MannyIsGod's Avatar
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    Yeah, two thumbs up because I'm sure the Iraqis dying each day appreciate that.

  15. #15
    Seek True Love, within. bigzak25's Avatar
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    Yeah, two thumbs up because I'm sure the Iraqis dying each day appreciate that.


    are the majority of iraqis better off now then under saddam?

    will their kids have a better future?

  16. #16
    e^(i*pi) + 1 = 0 MannyIsGod's Avatar
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    That remains to be seen, but I wonder about the moral implications of turning someone elses home into a battle ground for your own protection. As for them being better off they are currently worse off. As I said, it remains to be seen how well they recover but people are dying at a much higher right than they did under Sadaam.

  17. #17
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    "...people are dying at a much higher right than they did under Sadaam."
    25 years in power, over 500,000 dead at the hands of Saddam Hussein. That is approximately 55 people a day...including Ramadan.

    Yeah, we've had a few days where more than a hundred have been killed.
    But, for the most part, it's been way less than that rate. And, it's been people killed by terrorists and insurgents. The U.S., Coalition, and Iraqi military have killed Iraqi citizens at a much lower rate than that.

    So, I call bull on your post, Manny.

  18. #18
    Chronic User Bandit2981's Avatar
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    It would be interesting to find the numbers of how many Iraqis died under Sadaam's regime, compared to the number of Iraqis that have died from this war.

  19. #19
    e^(i*pi) + 1 = 0 MannyIsGod's Avatar
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    25 years in power, over 500,000 dead at the hands of Saddam Hussein. That is approximately 55 people a day...including Ramadan.

    Yeah, we've had a few days where more than a hundred have been killed.
    But, for the most part, it's been way less than that rate. And, it's been people killed by terrorists and insurgents. The U.S., Coalition, and Iraqi military have killed Iraqi citizens at a much lower rate than that.

    So, I call bull on your post, Manny.
    Where did I blame the coalition forces?

    WHY THE CAN'T PEOPLE READ A POST ON HERE WITHOUT DEDUCING SOMETHING THAT IS NOT THERE!

  20. #20
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    It would be interesting to find the numbers of how many Iraqis died under Sadaam's regime, compared to the number of Iraqis that have died from this war.
    500,000 is a conservative estimated.

    Saddam Hussein, himself, claimed that many Iraqi casualties during the Iraq/Iran war he instigated and waged from 1980 to 1988. Iran claimed 300,000. Add another 100,000 Iraqi military and civilians when we expelled him from Kuwait in '91.

    Then you start adding up the political murders.

    300,000 Shi'ites in the South after the '91 cease-fire. And, another 30,000 to 50,000 Kurds to the North.

    Forget about the 1 to 5 at-a-time revenge killings where he would go and wipe out an entire family because of some perceived political opposition. He began his regime by marching dozens of his own political cronies outside the place where he held his first meeting as President and had them shot so they wouldn't compete with him in the future.

    There's probably no accurate count of the number of deaths for which he's been responsible.

  21. #21
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    Where did I blame the coalition forces?

    WHY THE CAN'T PEOPLE READ A POST ON HERE WITHOUT DEDUCING SOMETHING THAT IS NOT THERE!
    You said they were dying at a higher rate and that's just not true...

  22. #22
    e^(i*pi) + 1 = 0 MannyIsGod's Avatar
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  23. #23
    Chronic User Bandit2981's Avatar
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    There's probably no accurate count of the number of deaths for which he's been responsible
    Funny, I was thinking the same thing about someone else.

  24. #24
    e^(i*pi) + 1 = 0 MannyIsGod's Avatar
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    Oh, and if you can back up your 500,000 (conservative estimate my ass, thats almost twice as many as I've seen as a credible estimate) then I'll admit you have a point.

  25. #25
    e^(i*pi) + 1 = 0 MannyIsGod's Avatar
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    You said they were dying at a higher rate and that's just not true...
    That is debateable, but no where in that post did I blame American forces with the deaths.

    I'm so sick of the reaching, why the can't people stick to what is being said in the thread? I understand that you are despratelly trying to fit me into some liberal mold because I dare be critical of America at times, but get a damn grip.

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