2 weeks in, what teams already need a change at QB?

[Chief Brody]

Getting stripped of your Captain duties by your teammates after 3 years of such a distinction is in no way indicative of how they think your career is going. He's a leader, and just needs a couple more years to develop, amirite?

[Chinook]

For a franchise with no HOF-caliber QB's (Steve Young does not apply b/c he was then), that's not saying much. Glennon is an unknown with a lot of upside. Freeman is a known quan y and not good enough. You can't do the things he did in Week 2 in your 4th-5th year--and let's be honest--he's going to do more of the same going forward.

That franchise is 38 years old now, and a number of decent quarterbacks have come through for a few years. Obviously, no one is saying that Freeman is a franchise player, but there are much worse quarterbacks in the league. 4,000 yards is nothing to sneeze at. Also, there's nothing about Freeman that's "known" besides that he's an enigma. He can have really good years and really bad years. Even in bad years, he'd find a way to Roethlisberger his team down the field in critical moments. In 2010, that led to five comeback wins. Last year and this year, it's led to defensive collapses (this year by penalty and poor play-calling). While the Bucs are definitely better on paper than they were then, the team seems to have lost its killer instinct.

We're seeing bad Freeman now, for sure, but his backup is Dan Orlovsky because even Schiano doesn't think Glennon should start yet. If the Bucs don't led the league in penalties, they win both their games by at least a score. Pulling him for the rookie is conceding the season, for sure. You don't think they could be worse without Freeman? Tell that to teams that to the 2011 Colts and current Jaguars.

[Chinook]

Getting stripped of your Captain duties by your teammates after 3 years of such a distinction is in no way indicative of how they think your career is going. He's a leader, and just needs a couple more years to develop, amirite?

I heard that vote was "rigged", and the players had their infamous meeting to address that. The media seems to think that Schiano fixed the vote to try to phase him out.

Here's an article about him denying it.

Bucs' Schiano: I didn't rig vote to keep Freeman from captain

Tampa
A few days after quarterback Josh Freeman missed the team photo, Bucs players cast ballots for team captains that were tabulated by coach Greg Schiano.

The results, announced Sept. 5, left Freeman out as an offensive captain for the first time in four years.

But questions as to the legitimacy of the vote might have prompted a players-only meeting before Sunday's season opener against the Jets, profootballtalk.com reported Wednesday. Schiano insisted he did not alter the results of the vote, which left receiver Vincent Jackson and guard Davin Joseph as offensive captains.

"The players vote. The votes are tabulated by me," Schiano told the Tampa Bay Times on Wednesday.

And Freeman wasn't voted a captain by the players?

"That's what I said, yes," Schiano said. "I know there's a story out there. It's 100 percent false. If there was such a thing as 102 percent, this would be it."

Freeman, 25, last was not a captain in 2009, his rookie season. He became one at the start of 2010, his first as a starter.

During his radio show Tuesday, Freeman said he voted for Vincent and Joseph.

"The simple fact is Davin and Vincent are great leaders," Freeman said. "Everybody wants to make it out like it's a demotion. I don't look at it like that. They don't look at it like that. Essentially, the conversations, the day-to-day actions are the same.

"It's something that Davin, coming off his injury, and Vincent, the type of offseason and type of year he had last year … I couldn't think of two better guys."

Former Bucs quarterback Shaun King, an analyst for NBC Sports Network, said Schiano's methods are not going over well with some players.

"There's a lot of disarray in Tampa," King said. "Some of the players felt there was an unfair counting of the captains vote. Greg Schiano is a micromanager, and it's starting to wear thin with some of the players. I don't think those guys are currently buying into the my-way-or-the-highway."

Schiano, who in 2012 went 7-9 in his first season after being hired from Rutgers, inherited Freeman, the Bucs' first-round pick in 2009.

Several times during this past offseason, Schiano indicated he wasn't sold on Freeman.

A day after the season, Schiano said he wanted to bring in compe ion at every position, including quarterback. At the owners meeting in March, he said he wasn't "wedded" to Freeman or any quarterback. A few months later, he said he wouldn't be upset if Mike Glennon, the Bucs' third-round pick in April, won the starting job.

In addition, the Bucs did not offer a new contract to Freeman, who now is in the final season of his rookie deal.

Schiano said he did not know where the story about the captains vote being rigged originated. But it became enough of an issue in the locker room to prompt the meeting, according to profootballtalk.com.

"The players know who they voted for," Schiano said Wednesday.

Jackson was elected captain before last season, his first with the Bucs. Joseph missed last season with a torn patellar tendon..

http://www.tampabay.com/sports/footb...-being/2141256

There's actually a lot of reports coming out about Schiano.

[Chief Brody]

Are you his agent? He's the worst qb in the division, still makes rookie mistakes, and has already gotten one coach fired. Help me understand what you're watching.

[Spur|n|Austin]

I'm baffled that the Jags did nothing about their QB situation in the offseason; it's almost laughable. Well, so are Romo and his boyfriend Garrett.

[Chinook]

Are you his agent? He's the worst qb in the division, still makes rookie mistakes, and has already gotten one coach fired. Help me understand what you're watching.

His dad is his agent. So it really isn't that much better than some schmuck on a message board.

It's too early to tell who's going to be worse out of him and Newton this season. It's safe to say he wasn't the worst quarterback in the division last year, and he wasn't in either 09 or 10. And being the worst quarterback in the NFCS isn't a necessarily bad thing. It's like being the worst defense in the AFCN.

He's a boom-or-bust player whose booms are great and whose busts are head-scratching. The stats level out to pretty damned mediocre. But the Bucs had BAD before Freeman, and his backup is about the personification of bad. The third-string is a player who looks worse than Freeman and whose coach (who hand-picked him in college and the pros) doesn't think is better than Orlovsky. Perhaps Glennon can pull a Flacco and go from third string to the AFCC or he can pull a Painter and just be terrible. But his good is likely to be nowhere hear Freeman's good, and his bad could be abysmal.

I don't know why I have to keep saying this: I don't think the Bucs should keep Freeman. He hasn't shown anything to deserve a long-term commitment, and he doesn't look comfortable out there anymore. But he's still their best quarterback, and the Bucs are much better off giving him the keys and letting him do whatever he wants with the offense and starting over next year than benching him and giving up on the season. Even with Freeman's play, the Bucs are a few mistakes away from being in first place in the division. They let him sandlot like he used to, who knows what will happen?

[spurraider21]

if the Raiders beat the Skins in a couple of weeks RG3andout will be on the bench.

-credit to harlem

[Holden_Caulfield]

I'm baffled that the Jags did nothing about their QB situation in the offseason; it's almost laughable. Well, so are Romo and his boyfriend Garrett.

because we are tanking for teddy!! no one was worth drafting or giving a contract to and most jags fans believe gabby needed one more chance so #1 pick here we come

[Chief Brody]

I'll tell you what happens--nothing. His booms have produced one 10-6 (no playpffs) season and dog the other 3 years. Freeman is the common denominator...coaches have changed, talent has been upgraded, yet there he stays.

[spurraider21]

because we are tanking for teddy!! no one was worth drafting or giving a contract to and most jags fans believe gabby needed one more chance so #1 pick here we come

your interior line also needs a little work. you've got the receivers, you've got MJD (though he may or may not be breaking down). you've got most pieces offensively. defense is a different animal

[Chinook]

I'll tell you what happens--nothing. His booms have produced one 10-6 (no playpffs) season and dog the other 3 years. Freeman is the common denominator...coaches have changed, talent has been upgraded, yet there he stays.

2010 should have been a playoff year. It would have been had the officials not called Winslow for PI versus the Lions. The NFL had to come out the next day and admit the officials messed that one up (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com...t-didnt-count/). It's not remotely his fault the Bucs sucked last year. He threw for 4,000 yards and 27 touchdowns. The offense was ninth in the league in total yards and 13th in scoring. But their pass defense was ranked dead last, and they were 29th in total defense and 23rd in scoring.

I understand you probably don't watch a lot of Bucs games. I don't blame you. But it's incredibly superficial to blame Freeman just because he's there. There are teams like the Browns and Raiders who can't seem to turn it around no matter how many new coaches, players and front-office guys they seem to bring in. And it's not like Schiano was even that great of a coach at Rutgers. He went .500 there. We're not talking about Freeman failing with Belichick as his coach here.

[spurraider21]

There are teams like the Browns and Raiders who can't seem to turn it around no matter how many new coaches, players and front-office guys they seem to bring in.

[Chinook]

You know it's true. I can't explain it, but the team just seems cursed since Tampa beat them. I like a lot of what they're doing now, but they're The Bills West.

[Chief Brody]

2010 should have been a playoff year. It would have been had the officials not called Winslow for PI versus the Lions. The NFL had to come out the next day and admit the officials messed that one up (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com...t-didnt-count/). It's not remotely his fault the Bucs sucked last year. He threw for 4,000 yards and 27 touchdowns. The offense was ninth in the league in total yards and 13th in scoring. But their pass defense was ranked dead last, and they were 29th in total defense and 23rd in scoring.

I understand you probably don't watch a lot of Bucs games. I don't blame you. But it's incredibly superficial to blame Freeman just because he's there. There are teams like the Browns and Raiders who can't seem to turn it around no matter how many new coaches, players and front-office guys they seem to bring in. And it's not like Schiano was even that great of a coach at Rutgers. He went .500 there. We're not talking about Freeman failing with Belichick as his coach here.

I understand you probably don't watch a lot of football, but when a QB consistently makes rookie mistakrs in his fifth year then you havr to accept that it's just not going to ever happen for him He's also a black big 12 qb, so that makes his prospectsdoubly bleak. You yourself said he's not the longterm answer, so your solution is to impede progress and go down with a sinking ship. Sound stratrgy.

[spurraider21]

You know it's true. I can't explain it, but the team just seems cursed since Tampa beat them. I like a lot of what they're doing now, but they're The Bills West.

we were in a good direction when Hue Jackson was around. The incredibly short sighted Palmer trade is what did us in. A team looking to get over the hump found themselves with no high draft picks and an over the hill QB who instantly became the biggest contract on the team. I still think Palmer can be successful given the situation, but he's not a game-changing talent that he used to be. After the first 1-2 games of getting acclimated, Palmer played really well for us for that half season, then Hue got canned. Resigning Seymour to 2 years 30 million was re ed too. I was fine with trading for him, but that second contract was foolish. This is now our 2nd consecutive year with 30 million or so in dead money

[Holden_Caulfield]

cheer up buttercup, you guys beat my jags

[spurraider21]

cheer up buttercup, you guys beat my jags

I actually lol'ed

[Chinook]

I understand you probably don't watch a lot of football, but when a QB consistently makes rookie mistakrs in his fifth year then you havr to accept that it's just not going to ever happen for him He's also a black big 12 qb, so that makes his prospectsdoubly bleak. You yourself said he's not the longterm answer, so your solution is to impede progress and go down with a sinking ship. Sound stratrgy.

I didn't say that you probably didn't watch a lot of Bucs games to offend you, by the way. I just don't think many people do, and they make assumptions based on stat sheets or talking heads. When your biggest justifications for hating on a player are his race and conference, you can understand why I said your analysis is superficial.

I've watched every game Freeman has played in the pros. There's no question that he still plays like a rookie. But when he's on, he plays like a rookie sensation. His problem isn't that he hasn't progressed; it's that he seems to regress any time someone tries to get him to fix his issues. Same thing happens with Big Ben. So Freeman's not a long-term solution. They won't be able to keep him for what he's worth (they'd have to overpay because of in bency), and they probably should just start over. But he's Tampa's best chance to make the playoffs this season. If he can drag a terrible offense to 10-6 in 2010 with his backyard antics, imagine what he could do with Jackson and Ogletree.

We disagree that starting Glennon is progress. He's not better than Freeman now, and odds are, he never will be. Half the quarterbacks in the league are below average, and the Bucs seem to find three of those to keep on their roster every season. I honestly don't even consider starting him ever, unless the Bucs manage to get Clowney in the draft. I said, he could be the next Flacco. But it almost never works to rush a rookie in mid-season just because he's there. Ride Freeman this season. Best-case scenario, he leads the team to the playoffs. Worst case, the Bucs get a high draft pick to get a true franchise quarterback. That seems like a sound strategy to me.

[Chinook]

we were in a good direction when Hue Jackson was around. The incredibly short sighted Palmer trade is what did us in. A team looking to get over the hump found themselves with no high draft picks and an over the hill QB who instantly became the biggest contract on the team. I still think Palmer can be successful given the situation, but he's not a game-changing talent that he used to be. After the first 1-2 games of getting acclimated, Palmer played really well for us for that half season, then Hue got canned. Resigning Seymour to 2 years 30 million was re ed too. I was fine with trading for him, but that second contract was foolish. This is now our 2nd consecutive year with 30 million or so in dead money

I hated the Palmer trade. I would rather have let Pryor get some time then and look to re-sign Campbell. I thought he was doing well there. From what I hear, Jackson is not well liked around the league. He was Flacco's coach his rookie year, and supposedly the team was not sad to see him go.

[spurraider21]

I hated the Palmer trade. I would rather have let Pryor get some time then and look to re-sign Campbell. I thought he was doing well there. From what I hear, Jackson is not well liked around the league. He was Flacco's coach his rookie year, and supposedly the team was not sad to see him go.

the raiders were seeing results from Hubert, so he was fine. There was less than 0 chance of Pryor playing that year. He was JUST coming off his 6 game suspension after being taken in the supplemental draft. and Campbell got hurt week 6. The team was playing well that year and was leading the division at that point (4-2). They knew they wouldn't be able to ride Kyle Boller. unfortunately they sac'd the future to try to get into the playoffs. it almost worked too. we lost to the chiefs and broncos the next 2 games, but were 7-4 and ahead of the division. our defense collapsed and we last 4 of our last 5. Campbell was doing really well for us, and he could have been resigned for way cheaper than the Palmer contract we inherited. There was no FO at the time, as Al Davis had just passed and we didn't have a GM, so Hue was the defacto GM and being a head coach, he wanted immediate wins, so he pushed HARD for the Palmer trade. blew up in his face when we didn't make it, and he made the mistake of throwing the players under the bus after our week 17 loss. but pryor was NOT going to play an it would have been a lost cause if Boller was actually going to start. problem is, it was lost anyway

[Chief Brody]

I didn't say that you probably didn't watch a lot of Bucs games to offend you, by the way. I just don't think many people do, and they make assumptions based on stat sheets or talking heads. When your biggest justifications for hating on a player are his race and conference, you can understand why I said your analysis is superficial.

I've watched every game Freeman has played in the pros. There's no question that he still plays like a rookie. But when he's on, he plays like a rookie sensation. His problem isn't that he hasn't progressed; it's that he seems to regress any time someone tries to get him to fix his issues. Same thing happens with Big Ben. So Freeman's not a long-term solution. They won't be able to keep him for what he's worth (they'd have to overpay because of in bency), and they probably should just start over. But he's Tampa's best chance to make the playoffs this season. If he can drag a terrible offense to 10-6 in 2010 with his backyard antics, imagine what he could do with Jackson and Ogletree.

We disagree that starting Glennon is progress. He's not better than Freeman now, and odds are, he never will be. Half the quarterbacks in the league are below average, and the Bucs seem to find three of those to keep on their roster every season. I honestly don't even consider starting him ever, unless the Bucs manage to get Clowney in the draft. I said, he could be the next Flacco. But it almost never works to rush a rookie in mid-season just because he's there. Ride Freeman this season. Best-case scenario, he leads the team to the playoffs. Worst case, the Bucs get a high draft pick to get a true franchise quarterback. That seems like a sound strategy to me.

You're better than Freeman right now. I'm guessing you wanted the Ravens to hang onto Kyle Boller for a few more seasons, right? I'm sure he would've eventually turned the corner too.
The better strategy--since it's quite obvious they're outmatched in their division and conference--is too scrap the failed experiment and have the rookie get his feet wet in a season where he'll have no pressure on him. They'll more than likely finish the same (no playoffs) and still have a shot to land a top pick, but will have given the new guy valuable experience along the way. You go into 2014 with a more comfortable young QB and good draft spot.

I'm guessing you wanted the Ravens to hang onto Kyle Boller for a few more seasons, right? I'm sure he would've eventually turned the corner too.

[Chief Brody]

I didn't say that you probably didn't watch a lot of Bucs games to offend you, by the way. I just don't think many people do, and they make assumptions based on stat sheets or talking heads.

Which is exactly what you did when you threw out the "they were 9th in passing and 4000 yards is nothing to look down upon" nonsense. Couple of things:

-4000yds may be nothing to look down upon, but it's obviously no longer something to look up to, either--especially when the likes of Tony Romo, Matt Stafford, and other BETTER inconsistent QBs do it all the time.

-Freeman was 19th in QB rating LAST YEAR AND HAS BEEN THE LAST IN HIS DIVISION FOR 3 STRAIGHT YEARS. But keep on cheery-picking stats to support ol' Sambo.

btw, stop bringing up 2010, he's been ridiculously unclutch and inconsistent (on his best days) since that season. As for 2012, a lot of empty stats there. 27-17 OMGZZZ! Fitzpatrick had 24 and 16 with only a b/u running back and a one-legged receiver last year. He also had a better QBR.

I'm telling it like it is and you tell it like it might be.

[Chinook]

You're better than Freeman right now. I'm guessing you wanted the Ravens to hang onto Kyle Boller for a few more seasons, right? I'm sure he would've eventually turned the corner too.
The better strategy--since it's quite obvious they're outmatched in their division and conference--is too scrap the failed experiment and have the rookie get his feet wet in a season where he'll have no pressure on him. They'll more than likely finish the same (no playoffs) and still have a shot to land a top pick, but will have given the new guy valuable experience along the way. You go into 2014 with a more comfortable young QB and good draft spot.

I'm guessing you wanted the Ravens to hang onto Kyle Boller for a few more seasons, right? I'm sure he would've eventually turned the corner too.

Yeah, this is why I keep saying you have a superficial view of the Freeman situation. He's not Boller at all. Boller never had stats half as good as Freeman did last year. Boller never had a top-10 offense, even though he did have some talented players and the best offensive lineman in the game protecting his blind side. Boller also had an injury problem, and he crumbled mentally very early in his career. Despite what you keep saying, Freeman is not universally considered a terrible quarterback in the way that Boller was or Gabbert is. Actually, all the media talks about is how Schiano is failing him. So you have to come back with more than just, "It's obvious Freeman is a terrible quarterback." He had the stats last year, and even without them this year, he put his team in position to win both games. That's more than you can say for teams that have truly bad quarterbacks starting for them now.

[Chief Brody]

I agree Freeman is better than Boller, but it's funny to watch you go back to the stats argument to support your cause when you villified it earlier. You have a thing for Freeman, I get it. Game tape--and coincidentally, stats--say he's .

27 and 17 with one of the better offensive lines and running attacks. Well I am over ingwhelmed. Nobody does less with more than Josh Freeman. Give Cam Newton Doug Martin, Vincent Jackson, Mike Williams, et al. Blaine Gabbert is terrible but at least he can say the best option he's ever had is Cecil Shorts.

5 years of no progress in today's passing league tells me you're not a quality NFL starter.

[Chief Brody]

he put his team in position to win both games.

7 points of offense yesterday (23 total on the season). If that's not putting your team in a position to win I don't know what is.