NBA: Why 'PG' and 'C' led teams don't win Championships

[Clipper Nation]

Question for you Clipper Nation respectfully: In a league that you admit is headed towards positionless, how does it feel to have the roster that is least flexible, most position dependent? Your bigs cannot play down: DeAndre cannot play PF. Blake cannot play SF. Your smalls cannot play up. Chris Paul cannot play SG, Jamal Crawford cannot play SF, JJ Re cannot play SF.

The Spurs are much more flexible. Bigs can play down: Tim Duncan can play PF. Tiago Splitter can play PF. Smalls can play up. Boris Diaw can play SF. Manu Ginobili can play SF. Danny Green can play SF. Kawhi Leonard can play PF.

I admit that positionless basketball is the future, but it's still a long way off because it has to catch on at the high school, AAU and college levels first in order for there to be a big enough pool of positionless players in the NBA to make it worthwhile... as a result, it doesn't really concern me that much with our current team, tbh...

[Gino-Step]

I admit that positionless basketball is the future, but it's still a long way off because it has to catch on at the high school, AAU and college levels first in order for there to be a big enough pool of positionless players in the NBA to make it worthwhile... as a result, it doesn't really concern me that much with our current team, tbh...

Don't you precisely want to go positionless while there aren't enough players for other teams to do the same? It would be pointless to go positionless and have 5 Jimmy Butlers when the other team has 5 Kevin Durants.

You would want to be early to the transition so as to have some advantage? The Spurs in their new model 2012-2014 FEASTS on Lakers, Memphis, and Clippers in the playoffs sweeping all of them while having more trouble with the more positionless teams like Golden State (replace Lee with Barnes), Thunder, and Heat.

I think you're already late on that switch to be honest having a team where your 3 best players are a traditional PG, PF and Centre. Blake is the only one I see becoming more versatile having added a jumper and passing skills.

[Gino-Step]

5 Austin Dayes also would destroy 5 Shaq's or 5 Steve Nashes. So would 5 Giannis Antetokounmpo's.

See the problem is when you have a Nash and Shaq on your team, it forces you to have certain other players on the court with them. You need to add a traditional Power Forward to help with boards. You need a lockdown 2 to help Nash play D etc. Austin Daye in those situations doesn't help you. But if you put Austin Daye in a situation where Tiago, Danny, Kawhi can rebound... then Austin doesn't need to be compared in rebounding ability to other 4's.

If you have 5 all around players who can do everything, your lack of true PF skills are masked. Just like Patty's lack of PG skills are masked by Manu and Belli.

This is why Spurs have chosen with the exception of being nice to Tony Parker and Tim Duncan for their legacy, to only go for versatile players. Ideally, Duncan wouldn't even play against teams like Golden State where he gets abused by Steph Curry - Andrew Bogut pick and roll where he cannot guard the shooters. Parker gets abused by having to defend Harrison Barnes or Klay Thompson in the post since Danny Green / Kawhi is needed to guard Steph Curry.

Ideally, if you had a team of Sean Livingston, Jimmy Butler, Kawhi Leonard, Giannis Antenokounmpo, and Chris Bosh with Boris Diaw, Andrei Kirilenko, and Austin Daye as your backups, you would not have any problems with cross matches.

But I understand that we must be loyal to Parker and Duncan. And I appreciate Duncan having tried to make himself more versatile by losing weight and adding a bit of outside shooting capabilities.

[Clipper Nation]

5 Austin Dayes also would destroy 5 Shaq's

Okay, now the Austin Daye semen cloud has officially gone too far

[chief keef]

small ball

[Gino-Step]

Ideal yet realistic roster:
Starting 5
Michael Carter Williams
Danny Green
Jimmy Butler
Kawhi Leonard
Tiago Splitter

Subs:Manu Ginobili, Boris Diaw, Sean Livingston, Austin Daye

absolutely unstoppable in mobility and length and shooting combination. Switch all pick and rolls on defense and this lineup will never be put in a compromising position in terms of giving up kickout corner threes cause big man wasn't able to contain the guards etc. length to double on any big men and quickness to recover (post ups are least efficient shot in basketball) and too many mismatches in a motion offence on the other end on either a small pg like Nash or a slow big man like Brook Lopez.

[Killakobe81]

Disagree..again. You take Kobe off the Lakers and put in Nash in his prime with a prime Shaq..they win as many les as Kobe/Shaq....if not more.

[Killakobe81]

I get Gino-step point about roster flexibilty but he went too far ...
His dream team still has flaws and would still get smashed by the HEat of last year or even this year's Spurs.

[Killakobe81]

Funny thing is I remember Pat Riley saying something similar (late 80's) having 5 players between 6 foot 7 and 6 foot 9 would be perfect and he said it for some of the same reasons ...

But Still need talent. And sometimes the better talent comes in smaller packages. (CP3, Tony Parker heck eve Harden is less than ideal size)
Would I rather have a 6 foot 7 CP3? Of course, that is why many (myself included) preferred Dwill before he got fat ... size matters but still would rather have talent. (and No, Dwill is not 6 foot 7 but is taller than Paul)

[chief keef]

^^^ that team is ing garbage son

[Gino-Step]

^^^ that team is ing garbage son

Of course it's garbage if your hypothetical team was Kevin Durant, LeBron James, James Harden, Paul George, and Roy Hibbert. But you're comparing apples to oranges. I am saying for the 28 teams in the NBA that do not have a Durant or a LeBron, what's the best way to build the team? If you think Austin Daye, Marco Belinelli are benefitting from the system, well so too is Tim Duncan and Tony Parker at their advanced age. Stop looking at these two players as somehow being 'All Stars'. The Spurs have done exceptionally well (top 5 team every year) by assembling a roster very much in the mold I've described.

Let me challenge you: Do not use a single player that has made an All Star Team and try and construct a roster that is better than mine. I will only build my team using my criteria.

12 man roster
Michael Carter-Williams - Sean Livingston
Danny Green - Klay Thompson
Jimmy Butler - Giannis Antenokounmpo
Kawhi Leonard - Tony Snell
Tiago Splitter - Boris Diaw

Extras: Austin Daye - Thaddeus Young


Go ahead. P.S. I didn't at all take the "best players" that haven't made an all star game. I've only followed my own criteria. You can follow a more traditional one, and let's see if anyone thinks your team would win.

[Gino-Step]

.

[spurraider21]

austin daye

[Clipper Nation]

I am saying for the 28 teams in the NBA that do not have a Durant or a LeBron, what's the best way to build the team?

Tanking until you get a legitimate superstar, tbh.... come to think of it, your "ideal team" would be perfect for tanking

[Phillip]

While I generally agree with the actual argument itself (that a team built entirely around a pure PG, or a pure low post center is generally not going to win championships), the OP did a crappy job of explaining it and said some really stupid stuff in the process.

[Gino-Step]

Again, the Spurs are simply being respectful of Duncan and Parker. The truth is they have had a higher points differential this year with those 2 off the court.

Best lineups consists of choosing from the following players: Manu, Green, Leonard, Daye, Diaw, Splitter.

[Killakobe81]

Again, the Spurs are simply being respectful of Duncan and Parker. The truth is they have had a higher points differential this year with those 2 off the court.

Best lineups consists of choosing from the following players: Manu, Green, Leonard, Daye, Diaw, Splitter.

This is the ammo I need in I hate stats debates.
Parker and duncan both have more value than stats would indicate both draw the attention of the defense and both wear down the opponent and draw fouls.
Austin, Daye and Especially KL or talented but there is a huge difference n most cases from being a #1 or #2 option versus being a role player.
A team of role players is great in theory but ty in actuality.

[Clipper Nation]

there is a huge difference n most cases from being a #1 or #2 option versus being a role player.

Finally you're starting to get the difference between MVPau and Kirby

[Killakobe81]

Finally you're starting to get the difference between MVPau and Kirby

Yall just better make sure you beat dem Mavs Thursday night I may be at the game ...

[chief keef]

Drummond/Miles Plumlee
Ibaka/Gibson
Gallinari/Stephenson
Afflalo/Green
Dragic/Hill

Belinelli, Blatche

good luck beating this team with your sandwich roleplayers

[Seventyniner]

Basketball is all about spacing and mismatches. Having 5 players who can stand anywhere on the court and score and can stand anywhere on the court and defend that area is where the NBA is going. Building a team of 6'7 players with a 7'3 wingspans that have adequate dribbling, passing, shooting, and can defend is the key.

Sorry, Nellieball is already a proven failure.

[Gino-Step]

Point proven. Parker and Duncan useless against length and athleticism.

Going to Duncan for a post up - inefficient.

Durant and Westbrook pick and roll- Parker switches on Durant, gets helplessly shot over.
Durant and Ibaka pick and pop - easy shot for Ibaka
Durant gets Duncan to switch onto him, absolutely blows by him for a dunk.

[Gino-Step]

Bump. Thank you. Parker and Duncan are useless against Thunder and Miami. So are George Hill and Roy Hibbert. You want to win, you had better play your all length and athletic lineups.

Ginobili - Green - Leonard - Daye - Splitter.

Ginobili - Green - Leonard - Diaw - Splitter

Thank you.

[spurraider21]

as if Indiana is PG and C led

[Clipper Nation]

Bump. Thank you. Parker and Duncan are useless against Thunder and Miami. So are George Hill and Roy Hibbert. You want to win, you had better play your all length and athletic lineups.

Ginobili - Green - Leonard - Daye - Splitter.

Ginobili - Green - Leonard - Diaw - Splitter

Thank you.

You want MethKC to backdoor-sweep you again?