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  1. #126
    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ TheSanityAnnex's Avatar
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    if you'd watch Colbert and Stewart, you might get your straight for once.
    Might I suggest some reading material for you?

    http://www.americanexperiment.org/ev...-american-mind

    "It has long been an article of anecdotal faith on the right that most of the media lean left. Thanks to the methodologically rigorous research of political scientist Tim Groseclose, it's now also a matter of empirically and quan atively do ented fact. In his new book Left Turn, Professor Groseclose argues that the notorious mainstream media do indeed have a liberal bias overall. He also acknowledges that some outlets such as the Washington Times and Fox News Special Report do indeed have a conservative one. Yet critically, he shows how the conservative proclivities of the latter are less pervasive and severe than the liberal proclivities of the former and how the skewed mix truly does distort how Americans think about key issues - and consequently vote.
    Dr. Groseclose is the Marvin Hoffenberg Professor of American Politics at UCLA. He also has taught at Caltech, Stanford, and Harvard."


    I'll even buy it for you. PM me your address.
    http://www.amazon.com/Left-Turn-Libe.../dp/B00BDHWGMO

  2. #127
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    Might I suggest some reading material for you?

    http://www.americanexperiment.org/ev...-american-mind

    "It has long been an article of anecdotal faith on the right that most of the media lean left. Thanks to the methodologically rigorous research of political scientist Tim Groseclose, it's now also a matter of empirically and quan atively do ented fact. In his new book Left Turn, Professor Groseclose argues that the notorious mainstream media do indeed have a liberal bias overall. He also acknowledges that some outlets such as the Washington Times and Fox News Special Report do indeed have a conservative one. Yet critically, he shows how the conservative proclivities of the latter are less pervasive and severe than the liberal proclivities of the former and how the skewed mix truly does distort how Americans think about key issues - and consequently vote.
    Dr. Groseclose is the Marvin Hoffenberg Professor of American Politics at UCLA. He also has taught at Caltech, Stanford, and Harvard."


    I'll even buy it for you. PM me your address.
    http://www.amazon.com/Left-Turn-Libe.../dp/B00BDHWGMO
    Colbert and Stewart are COMEDY shows, not news shows.

  3. #128
    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ TheSanityAnnex's Avatar
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    Colbert and Stewart are COMEDY shows, not news shows.
    My point exactly. Why would I watch a comedy show to get my straight?

    My offer still stands on the book, it is an excellent read.

  4. #129
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    My point exactly. Why would I watch a comedy show to get my straight?

    My offer still stands on the book, it is an excellent read.
    Why would I read a book when I can watch comedy shows?

  5. #130
    Breaker of Derps RandomGuy's Avatar
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    Wow.

    They really don't teach common sense these days.

    Why did 9/11 happen? Do you think they attacked for no reason?

    Did you know that Osama Bin Laden issued two Fatwas in the 90's describing his intended war against the USA for Clinton's attacks?
    Now I know you are just trolling. Sorry for taking you seriously for a second there.

    You got me.

  6. #131
    Breaker of Derps RandomGuy's Avatar
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    Might I suggest some reading material for you?

    http://www.americanexperiment.org/ev...-american-mind

    "It has long been an article of anecdotal faith on the right that most of the media lean left. Thanks to the methodologically rigorous research of political scientist Tim Groseclose, it's now also a matter of empirically and quan atively do ented fact. In his new book Left Turn, Professor Groseclose argues that the notorious mainstream media do indeed have a liberal bias overall. He also acknowledges that some outlets such as the Washington Times and Fox News Special Report do indeed have a conservative one. Yet critically, he shows how the conservative proclivities of the latter are less pervasive and severe than the liberal proclivities of the former and how the skewed mix truly does distort how Americans think about key issues - and consequently vote.
    Dr. Groseclose is the Marvin Hoffenberg Professor of American Politics at UCLA. He also has taught at Caltech, Stanford, and Harvard."


    I'll even buy it for you. PM me your address.
    http://www.amazon.com/Left-Turn-Libe.../dp/B00BDHWGMO
    LOL "methodologically rigorous"

    .... because the person responsible for writing the book jacket blurb says so... and is totally unbiased...

    Read the guy's study, and was less than impressed.
    Study:
    http://www.sscnet.ucla.edu/polisci/f.../MediaBias.pdf

    Some more in-depth critiques, because I don't feel like re-typing the wheel, so to speak:

    http://www.brendan-nyhan.com/blog/20...oblems_wi.html
    http://prospect.org/article/tomorrow...as-claim-today

    Yet in addition to ignoring the dozens of studies on media bias in the apparent belief that they were the first ones to ever attempt to address the topic quan atively, Groseclose and his co-author used the most bizarre methodology I've ever encountered to come up with their assertion of liberal bias. See if you can follow: They took members of Congress' ideology scores from Americans for Democratic Action; searched the Congressional Record to see which think tanks each member cited in floor speeches; assigned ideological scores to each think tank based on who cited them on the floor; then counted how often the think tanks were quoted in news sources. If a news outlet quoted think tanks cited more often by liberal members, the outlet had "liberal bias." That's it.

    Honestly, it seems more like another conservative circle-jerk that says far less about the media, than some people's low standards of evidence.

  7. #132
    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ TheSanityAnnex's Avatar
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    LOL "methodologically rigorous"

    .... because the person responsible for writing the book jacket blurb says so... and is totally unbiased...

    Read the guy's study, and was less than impressed.
    Study:
    http://www.sscnet.ucla.edu/polisci/f.../MediaBias.pdf

    Some more in-depth critiques, because I don't feel like re-typing the wheel, so to speak:

    http://www.brendan-nyhan.com/blog/20...oblems_wi.html
    http://prospect.org/article/tomorrow...as-claim-today




    Honestly, it seems more like another conservative circle-jerk that says far less about the media, than some people's low standards of evidence.
    You could just read it for yourself and form your opinion, it is not a conservative circle-jerk in the least bit. If bouton's accepts my offer he can mail it to you after he's finished reading it.

  8. #133
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    CHENEY: “MY THOUGHTS AND PRAYERS ARE WITH THE IRAQI OIL WELLS”




    Former Vice-President Cheney broke his silence about the crisis in Iraq on Tuesday, telling reporters, “My thoughts and prayers are with the Iraqi oil wells.”

    Speaking from his Wyoming ranch, Cheney said that he had planned to remain quiet about the current state of affairs in Iraq, but
    “thinking about those oil wells has kept me up at night.”

    “If Cheney won’t speak for the Iraqi oil wells, who will?” he said.

    Cheney indicated that, as of now, there was no fighting near Iraq’s oil wells, but warned, “If the violence spreads, those wells could be in jeopardy. And it’s up to the international community to insure that that worst-case scenario doesn’t happen.”


    The former Vice-President said that he expected to “catch ” for inserting himself into the debate about Iraq, but was resolute in his decision to do so.
    “If I prevent one drop of precious oil from being spilled, it will have been worth it,” he said.

    http://www.newyorker.com/online/blog...orowitz%20(84)
    I hope you aren't thinking the Humor of Borowitz is fact.

  9. #134
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    I don't argue with WC, I slap him

    WC doesn't argue with The Great Boutons, he nips uselessly at my ankles.
    What an active imagination.

    have you seen a shrink yet?

  10. #135
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    I assume you realize that's a satire piece, correct?
    I think he believes it as fact, since it suits his agenda.

  11. #136
    Veteran Th'Pusher's Avatar
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    The most helpful critical customer review:

    I have read the book. Such a work is going to be polarizing. Those on the right will put it on a pedastal. The left will cringe like vampires in an Italian restaurant. The right will say the numbers are fine to support their charge of media bias. The left will attack it from every angle they possibly can in a desperate attempt to deny any media bias.


    The book's narrative style is relatively engaging. It is peppered with quotes and anecdotes, and has a sort of tongue-in-cheek rolling style that makes it a decent read for what is ostensibly a rather dry topic (math). People on the right who read it will be nodding and chuckling as they go. Those on the left may not agree with his positions, but may at least be entertained by his style.


    The problem I had as I was reading was in the way the entire argument was framed. Quite often in the book you the author will step in and say, "It is useful to illustrate the point with a thought experiment..." Or at other times, "If we assume that..." Too many of the points he brings up are supported by what can only be called inferences and assumptions rather than hard statistics. I am a statistician, and I spend the entire book waiting and waiting for hard numbers that never materialized. I'm certain the author has his p-values and correlation coefficients somewhere - but they aren't in this book.


    So the book - IMO - fails at 'proving' the case for media bias because it ultimately does not use hard statistics. It uses 'soft' statistics which are based on inferences. Now, those inferences may indeed be based on numerics (PQs and SQs) but when the numbers that CREATE the numbers are inferred then it cannot really be said to be conclusive evidence. Evidence of a sort? Sure. But proof? Not so much.


    Do I think that the media is actually biased? Oh - of that I have no doubts at all. Is the media biased to the left? Again - I think that any rational person who conducts even a casual observation of the media marketplace can only come to the conclusion that the news media is rife with left-wing political slant. The chapters that were most interesting (and conclusive) to me were the ones that discussed "Words that aren't cheap" (showing that journalists overwhelmingly donate to leftist politics) and the discussion of 1st and 2nd order bias in the newsroom (what environment does it create to have a 85+% liberally slanted newsroom population?).


    As to whether the biased news media effects the voting habits of the population at large? I think he raises some interesting points, and to a certain extent (using OTHER research than his own) he makes at least a preliminary case that the media does in fact influence voting habits. But I do not think his SQs definitively measure actual media slant. Nor do I think that his measures of voter/media/politician central tendency is necessarily accurate.


    The "PQ" of congress is a measure of voting record. It INFERS conservativeness or liberalness. I think the PQ is a good finger-in-the-wind (so to speak) but it is not what a statistican would call "Interval" or "Ratio" data which can be used to generate a meaningful mean or median. Likewise, the "SQ" slant quotient are like the PQ numbers - which is to say they are ordinal measurements at best and suitable for simple analysis but not hard stats.


    What do I mean by that? In a social survey, a person may be asked a question such as "How much do you like Fruity Pebbles cereal?" and be presented with choices such as "Like strongly, Like somewhat, Neither like nor dislike, dislike somewhat, dislike strongly". To me, the PQ voting records of Congress seem more to suit this style. Voting for a bill doesn't automatically make you a liberal, conservative, Democrat, or Republican. It is a specific act (Yes/No) but its implication is general. Just like you can't statistically 'prove' how much someone likes Fruity Pebbles from a Lichert scale, you can't 'prove' how liberal or conservative someone is from the PQ. It is an indicator, not a scientific measurement.


    The same applies to the SQ numbers. They seem far too rooted in generic at udinal measures to suitably fill a statistical role that is based on central tendencies. Even as he was making his case in his final chapters, the language the author used was filled with conditionals that (to me) were tacit admissions that the results were not so much 'statistical proof' as they were 'estimators'. Particularly when he was stating "Hey - I think the SQ is over .5 and under .8, but what the heck let's just call it .7!" That isn't hard statistics. That isn't conclusive proof. That is a finger in the wind.


    Is he right? I think in a broad sense he probably is correct. I think the media is liberally slanted, and that it does pull voter opinion along with it to a degree. Is it as much as he states? I have no idea, but this book does not satisfy my that he has definitively answered 'how much'. He's probably in the ballpark, but that's all he is. He hit it in the ballpark (a general area) but we can't say he put his arrow in the gold (a specific target).

  12. #137
    I play pretty, no? TeyshaBlue's Avatar
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    Why would I read a book when I can watch comedy shows?
    Explains alot, tbh.

  13. #138
    I play pretty, no? TeyshaBlue's Avatar
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    The most helpful critical customer review:
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    Beefy. +10

  14. #139
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    Th. Harrington hypothesizes that instability is a strategic feature, not a bug. Ye olde divide and conquer:

    During the last week we have seen Sunni militias take control of ever-greater swathes of eastern Syria and western Iraq. In the mainstream media, the analysis of this emerging reality has been predictably idiotic, basically centering on whether:


    a) Obama is to blame for this for having removed US troops in compliance with the 2008 Status of Forces Agreement (SOFA) negotiated and signed by Bush.
    b) Obama is “man enough” to putatively resolve the problem by going back into the country and killing more people and destroying whatever remains of the country’s infrastructure.

    This cynically manufactured discussion has generated a number of intelligent rejoinders on the margins of the mainstream media system. These essays, written by people such as Juan Cole, Robert Parry, Robert Fisk and Gary Leupp, do a fine job of explaining the US decisions that led to the present crisis, while simultaneously reminding us how everything occurring today was readily foreseeable as far back as 2002.


    What none of them do, however, is consider whether the chaos now enveloping the region might, in fact, be the desired aim of policy planners in Washington and Tel Aviv.


    Rather, each of these analysts presumes that the events unfolding in Syria and Iraq are undesired outcomes engendered by short-sighted decision-making at the highest levels of the US government over the last 12 years.


    Looking at the Bush and Obama foreign policy teams—no doubt the most shallow and intellectually lazy members of that guild to occupy White House in the years since World War II—it is easy to see how they might arrive at this conclusion.


    But perhaps an even more compelling reason for adopting this analytical posture is that it allows these men of clear progressive tendencies to maintain one of the more hallowed, if oft-unstated, beliefs of the Anglo-Saxon world view.


    What is that?


    It is the idea that our engagements with the world outside our borders—unlike those of, say, the Russians and the Chinese—are motivated by a strongly felt, albeit often corrupted, desire to better the lives of those whose countries we invade.
    While this belief seems logical, if not downright self-evident within our own cultural system, it is frankly laughable to many, if not most, of the billions who have grown up outside of our moralizing echo chamber.


    What do they know that most of us do not know, or perhaps more accurately, do not care to admit?


    First, that we are an empire, and that all empires are, without exception, brutally and programmatically self-seeking.


    Second, that one of the prime goals of every empire is to foment ongoing internecine conflict in the territories whose resources and/or strategic outposts they covet.


    Third, that the most efficient way of sparking such open-ended internecine conflict is to brutally smash the target country’s social matrix and physical infrastructure.


    Fourth, that ongoing unrest has the additional perk of justifying the maintenance and expansion of the military machine that feeds the financial and political fortunes of the metropolitan elite.

    http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/06/...e-middle-east/

  15. #140
    Breaker of Derps RandomGuy's Avatar
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    You could just read it for yourself and form your opinion, it is not a conservative circle-jerk in the least bit. If bouton's accepts my offer he can mail it to you after he's finished reading it.
    I read the study that the guy seems to have based the book on.

    I guess I could read the book, but am not sure it would provide any further insight.

  16. #141
    Breaker of Derps RandomGuy's Avatar
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    The most helpful critical customer review:

    I have read the book. Such a work is going to be polarizing. Those on the right will put it on a pedastal. The left will cringe like vampires in an Italian restaurant. The right will say the numbers are fine to support their charge of media bias. The left will attack it from every angle they possibly can in a desperate attempt to deny any media bias.


    The book's narrative style is relatively engaging. It is peppered with quotes and anecdotes, and has a sort of tongue-in-cheek rolling style that makes it a decent read for what is ostensibly a rather dry topic (math). People on the right who read it will be nodding and chuckling as they go. Those on the left may not agree with his positions, but may at least be entertained by his style.


    The problem I had as I was reading was in the way the entire argument was framed. Quite often in the book you the author will step in and say, "It is useful to illustrate the point with a thought experiment..." Or at other times, "If we assume that..." Too many of the points he brings up are supported by what can only be called inferences and assumptions rather than hard statistics. I am a statistician, and I spend the entire book waiting and waiting for hard numbers that never materialized. I'm certain the author has his p-values and correlation coefficients somewhere - but they aren't in this book.


    So the book - IMO - fails at 'proving' the case for media bias because it ultimately does not use hard statistics. It uses 'soft' statistics which are based on inferences. Now, those inferences may indeed be based on numerics (PQs and SQs) but when the numbers that CREATE the numbers are inferred then it cannot really be said to be conclusive evidence. Evidence of a sort? Sure. But proof? Not so much.


    Do I think that the media is actually biased? Oh - of that I have no doubts at all. Is the media biased to the left? Again - I think that any rational person who conducts even a casual observation of the media marketplace can only come to the conclusion that the news media is rife with left-wing political slant. The chapters that were most interesting (and conclusive) to me were the ones that discussed "Words that aren't cheap" (showing that journalists overwhelmingly donate to leftist politics) and the discussion of 1st and 2nd order bias in the newsroom (what environment does it create to have a 85+% liberally slanted newsroom population?).


    As to whether the biased news media effects the voting habits of the population at large? I think he raises some interesting points, and to a certain extent (using OTHER research than his own) he makes at least a preliminary case that the media does in fact influence voting habits. But I do not think his SQs definitively measure actual media slant. Nor do I think that his measures of voter/media/politician central tendency is necessarily accurate.


    The "PQ" of congress is a measure of voting record. It INFERS conservativeness or liberalness. I think the PQ is a good finger-in-the-wind (so to speak) but it is not what a statistican would call "Interval" or "Ratio" data which can be used to generate a meaningful mean or median. Likewise, the "SQ" slant quotient are like the PQ numbers - which is to say they are ordinal measurements at best and suitable for simple analysis but not hard stats.


    What do I mean by that? In a social survey, a person may be asked a question such as "How much do you like Fruity Pebbles cereal?" and be presented with choices such as "Like strongly, Like somewhat, Neither like nor dislike, dislike somewhat, dislike strongly". To me, the PQ voting records of Congress seem more to suit this style. Voting for a bill doesn't automatically make you a liberal, conservative, Democrat, or Republican. It is a specific act (Yes/No) but its implication is general. Just like you can't statistically 'prove' how much someone likes Fruity Pebbles from a Lichert scale, you can't 'prove' how liberal or conservative someone is from the PQ. It is an indicator, not a scientific measurement.


    The same applies to the SQ numbers. They seem far too rooted in generic at udinal measures to suitably fill a statistical role that is based on central tendencies. Even as he was making his case in his final chapters, the language the author used was filled with conditionals that (to me) were tacit admissions that the results were not so much 'statistical proof' as they were 'estimators'. Particularly when he was stating "Hey - I think the SQ is over .5 and under .8, but what the heck let's just call it .7!" That isn't hard statistics. That isn't conclusive proof. That is a finger in the wind.


    Is he right? I think in a broad sense he probably is correct. I think the media is liberally slanted, and that it does pull voter opinion along with it to a degree. Is it as much as he states? I have no idea, but this book does not satisfy my that he has definitively answered 'how much'. He's probably in the ballpark, but that's all he is. He hit it in the ballpark (a general area) but we can't say he put his arrow in the gold (a specific target).
    Thanks. I think that was rather informative.

  17. #142
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    US and Iranian officials held talks over the advance of Islamist insurgents in Iraq on Monday, the first time the two nations have collaborated over a common security interest in more than a decade.


    The discussions in Vienna took place on the sidelines of separate negotiations about Iran’s nuclear programme, as Barack Obama told Congress that the he was deploying up to 275 military personnel to Iraq.



    The developments came amid conflicting signals in Washington over the extent of any coordination with Tehran over the crisis in Iraq.
    http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...raq-john-kerry

  18. #143
    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ TheSanityAnnex's Avatar
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    I read the study that the guy seems to have based the book on.

    I guess I could read the book, but am not sure it would provide any further insight.
    As a level headed critical thinker it was not meant for you, more for boutons.

  19. #144
    Breaker of Derps RandomGuy's Avatar
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    You could just read it for yourself and form your opinion, it is not a conservative circle-jerk in the least bit. If bouton's accepts my offer he can mail it to you after he's finished reading it.
    Here is the thing though:


    I will be happy to acknowledge some bias. I agree with generally with the reviewer of the book, so let's shortcut the discussion a bit:

    Are all opinions equally valid?

  20. #145
    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ TheSanityAnnex's Avatar
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    Here is the thing though:


    I will be happy to acknowledge some bias. I agree with generally with the reviewer of the book, so let's shortcut the discussion a bit:

    Are all opinions equally valid?
    I don't want to derail the thread further so I'll answer briefly. Yes, all opinions are equally valid, they are after all only opinions and not facts. A large majority of people take opinions as facts, that is the problem.


    Back to the topic...it appears the ISIS have acquired MANPADS, that should cause some problems.

  21. #146
    Breaker of Derps RandomGuy's Avatar
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    I don't want to derail the thread further so I'll answer briefly. Yes, all opinions are equally valid, they are after all only opinions and not facts. A large majority of people take opinions as facts, that is the problem.


    Back to the topic...it appears the ISIS have acquired MANPADS, that should cause some problems.
    I am of the opinion that rain is caused by purple unicorns jumping up and down on their magic sky waterbeds.

    Is that opinion equally valid as the opinion that rain is caused by accretion of water molecules in the upper atmosphere?



    My point is not all opinions are created equal.

    Bias is not always a bad thing. We should be biased against bad ideas.

  22. #147
    I play pretty, no? TeyshaBlue's Avatar
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    Rain forming by accretion is fact, not opinion.

  23. #148
    Breaker of Derps RandomGuy's Avatar
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    Rain forming by accretion is fact, not opinion.
    That is certainly your opinion.

    We determine that it is a fact, by using evidence and reason, and agreeing that it is indeed true. We form an opinion that the most likely explanation is accretion, and not purple unicorns, since that is what he evidence supports.

    Again, not all opinions are created equal.

    If one is of the opinion that there is some controversy concerning the fact of evolution, that opinion is not as valid as those who say that, indeed, evolution is the best explanation for the evidence we have.

    Should we then be concerned about media bias against the viewpoint that we did not magically poof into existence a few thousand years ago?

    If such "conservative" ideas really are that bad, should we really be concerned about bias against them?

  24. #149
    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ TheSanityAnnex's Avatar
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    I am of the opinion that rain is caused by purple unicorns jumping up and down on their magic sky waterbeds.

    Is that opinion equally valid as the opinion that rain is caused by accretion of water molecules in the upper atmosphere?



    My point is not all opinions are created equal.

    Bias is not always a bad thing. We should be biased against bad ideas.
    I am of the opinion that you are free to have any opinion on what causes rain.

    Again, the book recommendation was made in jest for boutons, no need to derail further, but it is a good read. I'm all for discussing media bias, just not in this thread.

  25. #150
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    where was the liberal media bias, eg at WaPo and NYT, when dubya and head were lying USA into Iraq?

    which media, of any consequence, major TV, major newspapers, actually influence elections or policy in the liberal/progressive direction?

    If elections aren't affected (eg, conservatives/centrists switching to voting Dem), then any imagined, or real, media bias is moot.

    btw, media supporting policies against AGW is not "bias", it's science.

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