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  1. #826
    Machacarredes Chinook's Avatar
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    That's so wrong on so many levels I don't even have the heart to laugh at you. A stretch four is a power forward who shoots from outside. Power forwards historically were inside players. When the three point line came in, you had a couple of guys like Sam Perkins who could hit three pointers, but Dirk is the best shooting power forward ever, completely redefined what could be done from that position, and I'm unsure how there's even any discussion about that. It doesn't matter if they are the first option, there are four other guys on the team to stretch the floor for. And again, Matt Bonner is probably the second best stretch four on his own team. The fact that he's completely inept at all things not involving shooting from 24 feet away don't make him better at his position or his role. Parsons and Dirk are just miles better than he is.
    Wait, you think Parsons plays the four, and you're trying to laugh at me?

    A stretch-four is called such because he stretches the defense. Dirk does not stretch the defense, since he's the first option. His man isn't going to leave him to help on someone else. Also, Dirk doesn't really spot up (once again because he's the focal point of the offense), so he's rarely just sitting behind the line. Instead, he's been a mid-post player his whole career, the best ever in that regard. But he's never stretched the floor. Despite the fact that he can shoot the three. It's just like with Curry in Golden State.

    Bonner's entire value to an offense is stretching the floor. He's absolutely elite at this, which is why he was the plus-minus king for all those years. In fact, it was Bonner who helped highlight the importance of stretch-fours in today's league. The Heat had RaShard Lewis on the floor to be their Bonner, not to be their Dirk. They don't even use Bosh as their Dirk, and he actually has enough talent to do so. He was another Bonner.

  2. #827
    Gif-ted LakerHater's Avatar
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    Knicks extend verbal max offer for 5 years, $129 million to Carmelo Anthony

  3. #828
    #21 timtonymanu's Avatar
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    Knicks extend verbal max offer for 5 years, $129 million to Carmelo Anthony
    Jesus.

  4. #829
    Out with the old... Obstructed_View's Avatar
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    Wait, you think Parsons plays the four, and you're trying to laugh at me?
    He plays their stretch four when they need one. Sorry if you don't watch them play, but when the Rockets have Howard, Parsons and three guards, what position is he playing? He's the only tall guy who shoots threes on the team.

    A stretch-four is called such because he stretches the defense.
    You can't stretch the defense if you don't shoot from outside.

    Seriously, I'm not sure why I'm bothering with this. Go ing Google the position. There are far more mentions of LaMarcus Aldridge and Chandler Parsons as a stretch 4 than there are of Matt Bonner.

    BTW, if Matt Bonner is such a ing fabulous stretch 4, why is it that the Spurs didn't sniff a le when he was in the rotation, but they suddenly started making it to the finals when he sat on the bench?

  5. #830
    Machacarredes Chinook's Avatar
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    He plays their stretch four when they need one. Sorry if you don't watch them play, but when the Rockets have Howard, Parsons and three guards, what position is he playing? He's the only tall guy who shoots threes on the team.


    You can't stretch the defense if you don't shoot from outside.

    Seriously, I'm not sure why I'm bothering with this. Go ing Google the position. There are far more mentions of LaMarcus Aldridge and Chandler Parsons as a stretch 4 than there are of Matt Bonner.

    BTW, if Matt Bonner is such a ing fabulous stretch 4, why is it that the Spurs didn't sniff a le when he was in the rotation, but they suddenly started making it to the finals when he sat on the bench?
    No. Parsons plays the four when Houston goes small, which is entirely different. All of the Rockets' starting PFs could shoot, going back to Patrick Patterson. There's a major differencd between a player like Parsons and one like Bonner. Chandler can't guard legit bigs, especially in the post. Bonner can.

    The fact that you're still bringing up Aldridge is insane. He's shot 21 percent from three his whole career. He's not even in the debate.

    Your last argument is the worst, seeing as the Spurs inserted Bonner during the WCF precisely to stretch the floor and take Ibaka out of his comfort zone. Matt's playoffs were a testament to the real value of a stretch-four, as Antic's were a testament to how valuable stretch-fives can be.

  6. #831
    tangina ka, though FireMicoHalili's Avatar
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    He plays their stretch four when they need one. Sorry if you don't watch them play, but when the Rockets have Howard, Parsons and three guards, what position is he playing? He's the only tall guy who shoots threes on the team.


    You can't stretch the defense if you don't shoot from outside.

    Seriously, I'm not sure why I'm bothering with this. Go ing Google the position. There are far more mentions of LaMarcus Aldridge and Chandler Parsons as a stretch 4 than there are of Matt Bonner.

    BTW, if Matt Bonner is such a ing fabulous stretch 4, why is it that the Spurs didn't sniff a le when he was in the rotation, but they suddenly started making it to the finals when he sat on the bench?
    Lol @ trying to prove a causation between Bonner in/out in the rotation and winning a le. Googled "stretch four", only one mention of Chandler Parsons as a stretch four, and he's mentioned in the same breath as Matt Bonner (http://www.cbssports.com/nba/eye-on-...ng-and-defense). No truth as to the claim Aldridge and Parsons are mentioned more as stretch fours more than Matt Bonner. CBS article just provides Parsons provides good shooting and good defense while Bonner provides good spacing albeit a negative in defense. Aldridge gets a mention twice (http://thejumpshot.com/2012/12/22/the-stretch-four/), mentioned with Bonner here (http://hoopshabit.com/2013/01/13/nba...-stretch-four/). If you're looking for proof Bonner contributed to this year's le drive, don't look further than this (http://www.poundingtherock.com/2014/...-ibaka-thunder).

    I agree with Obstructed_View as to the definition of a stretch four. Here's Wikipedia's
    "The Stretch Four is a term used in basketball to describe a player who plays the power forward position, but has skills outside those normally associated with the position. Power forwards (PF's) predominantly play close to the basket, using their size and strength to provide interior defense, rebounding, and scoring close to the basket. A stretch four is a player that is of power forward size, and usually guards other power forwards. The differences come largely on the offensive end: stretch fours generally have superior ball-handling, passing, and especially shooting skills. This allows them to "stretch" the opponent's defense, creating more driving lanes for guards and more post spacing for centers. Rashard Lewis of the NBA's Miami Heat, Ryan Anderson of the New Orleans Pelicans and Dirk Nowitzki are often characterized as a stretch four—Rashard was originally a small forward, but after his arrival in Orlando from Seattle, he played mostly at the power forward position."
    Sorry if there wasn't anything more academic, but you can probably rely on SB Nation (http://www.sbnation.com/2013/3/14/41...cliff-robinson). To limit stretch fours as plodding PFs who jack up threes is too simplistic a view.

    As to Chinook's claim Bonner is the best stretch-four in Texas, there should at least be more proof than Bonner's shooting percentages, unless of course you were trying to be funny.

  7. #832
    Machacarredes Chinook's Avatar
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    As to Chinook's claim Bonner is the best stretch-four in Texas, there should at least be more proof than Bonner's shooting percentages, unless of course you were trying to be funny.
    Matt being the plus-minus king isn't good enough to show how big of an impact he has just by being on the court?

    Anyway, I read that Wiki article after O_V suggested I look it up. It's not cited, so it's just someone's opinion. Even so, it emphasizes both three-point shooting (taking LA and Love out of the debate) and positional defense (taking out Parsons and other small-ball fours).

    Dirk could be stretch-four skill-wise, but he isn't one functionally, because he's not spacing the floor for anyone. Bosh is a stretch-four now because of his role with the Heat. But he wasn't one before he changed his game to move outside.
    Last edited by Chinook; 07-04-2014 at 03:06 AM.

  8. #833
    tangina ka, though FireMicoHalili's Avatar
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    Matt being the plus-minus king isn't good enough to show how big of an impact he has just by being on the court?

  9. #834
    Machacarredes Chinook's Avatar
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    You laugh, but it's not a coincidence. Floor-spacing is that important. Ask Ibaka.

  10. #835
    2 Doors Down BillMc's Avatar
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    I like Dirk. Dirks good people.

    Too bad he got stuck on the ing Dallas Mavericks.
    This. Cuban dismantled their (admittedly old) le team to chase dream free agents that will never come, and looks like they're going to waste Dirk's last good years. A shame. He deserves better.

  11. #836
    tangina ka, though FireMicoHalili's Avatar
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    You laugh, but it's not a coincidence. Floor-spacing is that important. Ask Ibaka.
    Oh lol you weren't kidding. Arguing spacing with Ibaka is different from arguing Bonner is the best stretch four in terms of APM, but you knew that already. I agree Bonner helped win by keeping Ibaka away from the basket; this is why stretch fours are important on the defensive end, bec they draw out prime post defenders out to the perimeter where they are less effective, but again, everyone knows that. I don't need to cite anything to buttress that claim.

    As to your argument of +/- being seriously considered, I suggest reading the following: 82games (http://www.82games.com/ilardi1.htm) where it says small sample sizes and fewer minutes for players to draw APM from are shaky at best; Ultiworld (http://ultiworld.com/2013/08/16/the-...of-plus-minus/) which says +/- should be taken in conjunction with other stats to gauge a player's overall efficiency; a Berkeley paper (http://www.sloansportsconference.com...l-Analysis.pdf) which also suggests looking into other box score statistics aside from +/- to determine efficiency; and this wonderful piece from Zach Lowe questioning the overall integrity of singling out +/- to determine how good a player is (http://offthedribble.blogs.nytimes.c...ype=blogs&_r=0). Not an opinion anymore, I hope.

    You say Dirk is not a stretch four, Phil Watson says otherwise (http://hoopshabit.com/2013/01/13/nba...-stretch-four/), saying he currently is the best. I mean, you did discredit Wikipedia saying it is an opinion, and Watson has been a sportswriter for years, as compared to an anonymous Internet forum poster who's had a thousand posts. Being a stretch four doesn't mean you necessarily have to stretch for another big man or another player, just the fact you provide space for other players to operate in, keep the defense loose. As far as I know, Nowitzki frees up the lane in case Ellis wants to get to the cup, so there's a player he's spacing the floor for.

  12. #837
    Veteran Baam's Avatar
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    Everyone is free to have their own definition of the stretch 4 tbh...

    I get where Chinook is coming from even tho I'm not sure I agree completely, calling Dirk a stretch 4 is kinda like calling Paul George a 3 & D player... He does 3 & D but he does more than that so nobody is calling him a 3 & D player, it's reserved for role players like Green and Ariza... Dirk does much more than shooting 3s, actually he has been better when he has limited the number of 3s he'd take...

  13. #838
    tangina ka, though FireMicoHalili's Avatar
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    Everyone is free to have their own definition of the stretch 4 tbh...

    I get where Chinook is coming from even tho I'm not sure I agree completely, calling Dirk a stretch 4 is kinda like calling Paul George a 3 & D player... He does 3 & D but he does more than that so nobody is calling him a 3 & D player, it's reserved for role players like Green and Ariza... Dirk does much more than shooting 3s, actually he has been better when he has limited the number of 3s he'd take...
    Ohhhh stretch fours and 3&D les can't be handed out to star players, just role players. Didn't know we had to restrict them to that. Got the memo, thanks. And geez yeah probably the number of three-pointers is the perfect parameter to gauge whether a big man is a stretch-four. Midrange jumpers obviously don't count because they don't provide, like, I don't know, floor spacing or whatever.

  14. #839
    Veteran Baam's Avatar
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    Like I said everyone is free to have their own definition, I do think that stretch 4 is lot more open to interpretation than 3 & D, personally I don't care enough to go back and forth.

  15. #840
    tangina ka, though FireMicoHalili's Avatar
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    Ahh nothing like irrational sports discussions, what a way to live life

  16. #841
    Veteran jermaine's Avatar
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    Knicks extend verbal max offer for 5 years, $129 million to Carmelo Anthony
    These owners are pathetic! No wonder players be drama queens. Melo aint brought one team a championship an they wanna pay him that much! Everyone thats getting signed makes more than Spurs players but the Spurs are the champs! I use tp wonder how teams suck so bad for yrs! This is a perfect example! Signing the "regular season" s to major deals.

  17. #842
    Out with the old... Obstructed_View's Avatar
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    Ahh nothing like irrational sports discussions, what a way to live life
    Dude, if we're going to be spending time on a sports message board, aren't we SUPPOSED to be arguing about like this?

  18. #843
    tangina ka, though FireMicoHalili's Avatar
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    Dude, if we're going to be spending time on a sports message board, aren't we SUPPOSED to be arguing about like this?
    Well, if you put it that way, (1) I guess there isn't any way anyone puts their point across because everyone is both right and wrong; (2) there was no point in you trying to defend your point if we're just going to around. Thanks for playing though, good on you.

  19. #844
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    Knicks extend verbal max offer for 5 years, $129 million to Carmelo Anthony
    I thought Phil was reasonable.

  20. #845
    Learn2Excel TheCerebral1's Avatar
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    Ed Davis anyone? He'd be an interesting guy to add. Then we can waive the out of Ayres?

  21. #846
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    It's great when you have debates amid the discussions on here as long as no one takes it into the troll category and starts childishly cussing and name calling. That is what trolls do as well as ruining and sidetracking the thread topic, lie to get your goat or make obvious false accusations to try to get you to get upset and melt down and make an utter fool of yourself.
    This is not a complaint in any way whatsoever, it is however an indictment and statement of fact of trolling activities in general.
    Good insightful basketball discussions and debates however should be encouraged on here. That is how we learn, shape, and change our opinions. No one, no matter how knowledgeable knows everything.
    Trolls sometimes make their way into this forum, but they usually stay down below thankfully, and they will only ultimately make total fools of themselves if you let them.
    I don't think one should ever take good discussions and debates personally. Nor do I take trolls personally regardless of what they would have anyone believe to the contrary, yet lately I do bash the trolls when they come forward. Some would say that is trolling too. I disagree, it is a matter of opinion.
    IMHO that is what we should all be doing as we get and learn information Spurs and basketball related.
    Just my two cents worth.


  22. #847
    Believe.
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    It's great when you have debates amid the discussions on here as long as no one takes it into the troll category and starts childishly cussing and name calling. That is what trolls do as well as ruining and sidetracking the thread topic, lie to get your goat or make obvious false accusations to try to get you to get upset and melt down and make an utter fool of yourself.
    This is not a complaint in any way whatsoever, it is however an indictment and statement of fact of trolling activities in general.
    Good insightful basketball discussions and debates however should be encouraged on here. That is how we learn, shape, and change our opinions. No one, no matter how knowledgeable knows everything.
    Trolls sometimes make their way into this forum, but they usually stay down below thankfully, and they will only ultimately make total fools of themselves if you let them.
    I don't think one should ever take good discussions and debates personally. Nor do I take trolls personally regardless of what they would have anyone believe to the contrary, yet lately I do bash the trolls when they come forward. Some would say that is trolling too. I disagree, it is a matter of opinion.
    IMHO that is what we should all be doing as we get and learn information Spurs and basketball related.
    Just my two cents worth.



    You da real MVP Xmas

  23. #848
    Veteran ace3g's Avatar
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    NBA on ESPN @ESPNNBA
    Sources: Bulls trying to add Euro star Nikola Mirotic -- es.pn/VmERSK


  24. #849
    Heckler in the Stands anakha's Avatar
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    ...and Christmas troll just couldn't help himself.

    At least he waited a week before ing upstairs again.

  25. #850
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    ...and Christmas troll just couldn't help himself.

    At least he waited a week before ing upstairs again.
    The quote above is a typical example of what I was talking about, not ing as he would have us believe.
    Does not know the difference between a simple statement of fact, and ing, no surprise here.
    It won't be long before he makes a total fool of himself.
    Makes one wonder though, why was he offended by a simple statement of fact that he had to make a baseless false accusation, and name calling?
    Hm?
    I caution him, this is a good informative thread that does not need him to ruin it.
    'nuff said.

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