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  1. #51
    Drive for Five! ambchang's Avatar
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    http://www.freep.com/story/sports/nb...rdan/28056173/

    LeBron James is better than Michael Jordan

    By Shawn Windsor, Detroit Free Press
    That piece was horrible, really.

    Multiple logical contradictions, where he would point out the teams Jordan won with, but not those Lebron won with (I mean, Wade, Bosh, Allen, and a whole bunch of strong role players assembled by the godfather himself). Then he'd make fun of Jordan's compe ion (Barkley was weak compe ion? Stockton was weak compe ion), without mentioning Drexler, Magic, Worthy, Penny Hardaway, Payton, Kemp, and Malone? Not to mention having Lebron making 6 finals as an accomplishment when he had to go through absolute crap in the East (the best compe ion he had in the East was Detroit or Boston).

    And Lebron playing the Spurs three times? Yeah, he lost twice. And Leonard as the best perimeter defender ever? He got embarrassed by Matt Barnes, Matt Barnes, not once, not twice, but multiple times in the same series. I still love Leonard, I think he has a bright future ahead of him if he can be more selfish and start to take over games consistently, he can be a multiple times all star, but he's NOT the best perimeter defender of all time. Pippen, Moncrief, Cooper, Payton, Bowen, Artest, or even Rodman all have a thing to say about that.

    People have to understand, the game is more than athletic ability. If it was just athletic abilities, Stromile Swift would be the best PF of all time, not Duncan, Magic and Bird and Duncan and Russell wouldn't be in the top 10.

    The game is a lot more than that. Marc Gasol is doing well in today's league, Harden isn't overly athletic, Curry is a great shooter but I wouldn't call him the greatest athlete.

  2. #52
    Veteran Sean Cagney's Avatar
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    Playoffs
    2PT%: Jordan
    3PT%: Jordan
    FT%: Jordan


    Get the outta here with that scrub. Wake me up when he discovers a jump shot. You know the ability to throw the ball inside the cylinder


    James = 15 PPG in the 90s
    Don't even get me started on Finals stats either, no comparison when it comes to Jordan in the playoffs. I never saw Jordan scared and choking in a series like I have seen Lebron against Dallas and game 6 against the Spurs, he got let off the hook in that one though. Lebron doesn't have that killer instinct Jordan had, he gets passive at times or looks scared.

  3. #53
    you are a faggot Phillip's Avatar
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    LeBron got shut down by the likes of Rashard Lewis, Hedo Turkoglu, Jason Terry, Dashawn Stevensen, Shawn Marion, Tony Allen in the playoffs
    Are you re ed? Not a single one of those guys shut him down, except MAYBE Shawn Marion.

  4. #54
    Believe.
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    The thing that will always keep him behind was taking 7 or 8 seasons to develop a Jumper. Peak is pretty close though.

  5. #55
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    Ever thought of Jordan possessing the same body type as LeBron James? That guy would probably have a statue in front of the white house and Oxford University if that was the case.
    Well there was a guy called Len Bias who was maybe even more athletic than Michael Jordan and he was also bigger. His body size was probably in between Michael Jordan and Lebron, but unfortunately he didn't get to play an NBA game as he died beforehand after getting drafted as the Celtics' first pick. I really would have loved to have seen Len play in the NBA.

    The other thing about Len is that he had great jumpshot. From the Youtube videos I've watched, his jumpshot looked so feathery soft and smooth. Looked like a better shooter than both Michael and Lebron.

  6. #56
    Savvy Veteran spurraider21's Avatar
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    James doesn't even have a reliable jump shot
    Playoffs
    2PT%: Jordan
    3PT%: Jordan
    FT%: Jordan


    Get the outta here with that scrub. Wake me up when he discovers a jump shot. You know the ability to throw the ball inside the cylinder


    James = 15 PPG in the 90s
    James is the current day version of Tim Thomas. Layups or jack up 3s. Lacks the offensive skill set to do much else
    how much did this sting, tbh?


  7. #57
    Go Spurs Go!! dbreiden83080's Avatar
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    "You know, Jordan couldn't have led this team to the Finals"

    Is he for ing real?

    I have been watching the NBA since the early 90's and the east is the worst I have ever seen..

  8. #58
    Go Spurs Go!! dbreiden83080's Avatar
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    Jordan:

    - Better post game (although it was mostly against tiny defenders)
    - Better mid-range shooter
    - Better ball-handler
    - Better at getting his own father killed(although he wins this by default vs LeBron)
    Jordan was the most mentally tough player of all time.. He was a ing beast out there when it came to winning at all costs.. Lebron has flubbed so many big spots in the playoffs, missed so many big shots, 2-4 in the finals coming up..

    Jordan is the GOAT!!

  9. #59
    SeaGOAT midnightpulp's Avatar
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    I'm a champion of the modern game, but the problem with these comparisons is that they take place in a vacuum and will typically punish the older player over things out of his control, namely that he played in an different era and did not have the opportunity to evolve as the game has evolved.

    Tim Duncan is my favorite example to use here. If he suffered a career ending injury in '05, many of the same arguments applied to diminish Jordan's greatness would be used against Duncan: "He dominated at the PF/C position before the emergence of stretch 4s and position-less basketball!" "Duncan's excellent low-post game would easily countered today by swarming wing defenses, who'd be able collapse on him but would also be quick and long enough to close out on 3 point shooters as he passed out of the double/triple team. You didn't see perimeter defenders like that in '05!" "Pace-and-Space basketball would neutralize Duncan's dominance as a paint anchor." "It's doubtful Duncan would be as lethal an offensive threat lacking a 3 point shot, something every big seems to have now!" etc, etc.

    But we saw Duncan evolve as the game evolved, and I actually think it's easier for him to score now than it was in the mid-00's. The only reason he's not putting up a 20+ ppg is because he's almost 40. Prime Duncan with his quickness and skillset would terrorize the inside in pace-and-space.

    We don't know how Jordan would've evolved, so the comparison is rather nonsensical. Much of the reason we all consider Jordan the greatest is because of the fact his main wing compe ion was guys who had no left hand and were marginally skilled by today's standards. He was that far ahead of his time and peers that he broke the mold and set a new standard of what wing play could and should be like. Furthermore, Jordan would be a nightmare in a modern offense, with all the spacing it generates. He would be James Harden on mega-steroids.

    There's no romanticism at work here. You can look at Jordan's skillset and athleticism and easily extrapolate how dominant he would be in the modern game.

    Is Lebron better than Michael in a vacuum? Perhaps. But the comparison isn't fair to Jordan. It's like saying Stephen Hawking is a "better" scientist than Albert Einstein because he (Hawking) is working on the cutting edge of theoretical physics while all Einstein did was discover the antiquated theory of relatively.

    Everything evolves, and it's disingenuous to diminish accomplishments as ostensibly "worse" because they came during an earlier period of that evolution.

  10. #60
    SeaGOAT midnightpulp's Avatar
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    Duncan got outplayed by a teammate in 3 of his 5 les.
    Not true.

    What is true is that Kobe got outplayed by a teammate during 4 of his 5 le runs.

  11. #61
    Go Spurs Go!! dbreiden83080's Avatar
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    Duncan got outplayed by a teammate in 3 of his 5 les.
    Magic- 3 finals MVP'S in 5 les

  12. #62
    SeaGOAT midnightpulp's Avatar
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    I'm a champion of the modern game, but the problem with these comparisons is that they take place in a vacuum and will typically punish the older player over things out of his control, namely that he played in an different era and did not have the opportunity to evolve as the game has evolved.

    Tim Duncan is my favorite example to use here. If he suffered a career ending injury in '05, many of the same arguments applied to diminish Jordan's greatness would be used against Duncan: "He dominated at the PF/C position before the emergence of stretch 4s and position-less basketball!" "Duncan's excellent low-post game would easily countered today by swarming wing defenses, who'd be able collapse on him but would also be quick and long enough to close out on 3 point shooters as he passed out of the double/triple team. You didn't see perimeter defenders like that in '05!" "Pace-and-Space basketball would neutralize Duncan's dominance as a paint anchor." "It's doubtful Duncan would be as lethal an offensive threat lacking a 3 point shot, something every big seems to have now!" etc, etc.

    But we saw Duncan evolve as the game evolved, and I actually think it's easier for him to score now than it was in the mid-00's. The only reason he's not putting up a 20+ ppg is because he's almost 40. Prime Duncan with his quickness and skillset would terrorize the inside in pace-and-space.

    We don't know how Jordan would've evolved, so the comparison is rather nonsensical. Much of the reason we all consider Jordan the greatest is because of the fact his main wing compe ion was guys who had no left hand and were marginally skilled by today's standards. He was that far ahead of his time and peers that he broke the mold and set a new standard of what wing play could and should be like. Furthermore, Jordan would be a nightmare in a modern offense, with all the spacing it generates. He would be James Harden on mega-steroids.

    There's no romanticism at work here. You can look at Jordan's skillset and athleticism and easily extrapolate how dominant he would be in the modern game.

    Is Lebron better than Michael in a vacuum? Perhaps. But the comparison isn't fair to Jordan. It's like saying Stephen Hawking is a "better" scientist than Albert Einstein because he (Hawking) is working on the cutting edge of theoretical physics while all Einstein did was discover the antiquated theory of relatively.

    Everything evolves, and it's disingenuous to diminish accomplishments as ostensibly "worse" because they came during an earlier period of that evolution.
    Bump for the page turn, since I actually spent a few minutes typing this out.

  13. #63
    Veteran Killakobe81's Avatar
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    I'm a champion of the modern game, but the problem with these comparisons is that they take place in a vacuum and will typically punish the older player over things out of his control, namely that he played in an different era and did not have the opportunity to evolve as the game has evolved.

    Tim Duncan is my favorite example to use here. If he suffered a career ending injury in '05, many of the same arguments applied to diminish Jordan's greatness would be used against Duncan: "He dominated at the PF/C position before the emergence of stretch 4s and position-less basketball!" "Duncan's excellent low-post game would easily countered today by swarming wing defenses, who'd be able collapse on him but would also be quick and long enough to close out on 3 point shooters as he passed out of the double/triple team. You didn't see perimeter defenders like that in '05!" "Pace-and-Space basketball would neutralize Duncan's dominance as a paint anchor." "It's doubtful Duncan would be as lethal an offensive threat lacking a 3 point shot, something every big seems to have now!" etc, etc.

    But we saw Duncan evolve as the game evolved, and I actually think it's easier for him to score now than it was in the mid-00's. The only reason he's not putting up a 20+ ppg is because he's almost 40. Prime Duncan with his quickness and skillset would terrorize the inside in pace-and-space.

    We don't know how Jordan would've evolved, so the comparison is rather nonsensical. Much of the reason we all consider Jordan the greatest is because of the fact his main wing compe ion was guys who had no left hand and were marginally skilled by today's standards. He was that far ahead of his time and peers that he broke the mold and set a new standard of what wing play could and should be like. Furthermore, Jordan would be a nightmare in a modern offense, with all the spacing it generates. He would be James Harden on mega-steroids.

    There's no romanticism at work here. You can look at Jordan's skillset and athleticism and easily extrapolate how dominant he would be in the modern game.

    Is Lebron better than Michael in a vacuum? Perhaps. But the comparison isn't fair to Jordan. It's like saying Stephen Hawking is a "better" scientist than Albert Einstein because he (Hawking) is working on the cutting edge of theoretical physics while all Einstein did was discover the antiquated theory of relatively.

    Everything evolves, and it's disingenuous to diminish accomplishments as ostensibly "worse" because they came during an earlier period of that evolution.
    Great post Mid when you are on you are on. Sometimes, I wonder why you slum/troll with some of your stuff. You are a fine writer. Even if you get misguided from time to time. Props. Please more of this and less of the poo slinging.

  14. #64
    Veteran cutewizard's Avatar
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    for me , the greatest was Chamberlain

  15. #65
    Groundhog Day TDfan2007's Avatar
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    Bump for the page turn, since I actually spent a few minutes typing this out.

  16. #66
    TheDrewShow is salty lefty's Avatar
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    Bird s on those 2 clowns

  17. #67
    Board Man Comes Home Clipper Nation's Avatar
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    Not true.

    What is true is that Kobe got outplayed by all of his teammates during 5 of his 5 le runs.
    FIFY

  18. #68
    Groundhog Day TDfan2007's Avatar
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    Let's break it down:

    Scoring: Jordan

    Jordan was one of the greatest scorers that the game has ever seen, if not the greatest. His midrange game was a thing of beauty, and he had almost otherworldly aerial coordination when attacking the basket. Later in his career he also added a formidable high post/low post game to his repertoire. As a scorer, Jordan had virtually no weaknesses other than a mediocre 3 point shot, but he clearly didn't need one to be effective, and opponents could not use that weakness against him.

    As good as Jordan was as a scorer, LeBron is not too far behind. He's probably a better 3 point shooter than Jordan, but isn't nearly as effective as a mid-range or pull-up shooter or post player. In terms of attacking the basket, LeBron is just about on par with Jordan, albeit through different means. Jordan attacked the rim with graceful explosiveness, while LeBron goes more for the freight train approach. The two factors holding LeBron back here are his blatant travelling and the fact that he never had to deal with the type of punishment and physicality that Jordan had to while attacking the basket.


    Ball-handling: Jordan

    Aside from his post game, this is the only area where I feel LeBron has been mildly underwhelming, but one must remember that he's 6'8'' 260+ lbs. LeBron is a good ball-handler, but he often doesn't use it in his scoring moves.

    Jordan was an exceptional ball handler with a solid crossover and spectacular in-and-out dribble. He also excelled at scoring off of multiple dribble moves.


    Passing: LeBron

    This is not really debatable, so I'll only say that LeBron is right up there with Bird in terms of wing players who were lethal scorers and playmakers.


    Rebounding: LeBron

    One guy is 6' 6'' and never played PF a day in his life. The other guy is 6' 8'', built like a truck, and effectively played PF for a good chunk of 2 le runs. You do the math.


    Defense: Wash

    I haven't seen enough games from Jordan to comment on his defensive consistency, but I know that when he was locked in he was probably the second-best perimeter defender in the league behind Scottie. He could play the passing lanes, lock you up one-on-one, and gave perfect help against would-be drivers or post players.

    As for LeBron, he really blossomed as a defensive player in his last year or so with Cleveland, and in his first 2 years in Miami. Otherwise, his defense has been spotty effort-wise, especially in the last few years. However, when LeBron is engaged, it's incredibly difficult to score on him. He can guard the 1-4 effectively due to his unique combo of size, speed, and quickness. Although he's not as solid of a help defender as Michael, LeBron's defensive versatility definitely makes up for it, making this category a draw IMO.


    Intangibles: Jordan

    Often times with Jordan we get caught up in his myth, but there was a lot of truth to it. The man was, and continues to be, a compe or to a pathological degree. He wanted to destroy his opponent every night, and seemingly never took a game or even a play off. Jordan also produced amazingly on the games biggest stage, as he owns some of the most spectacularly efficient postseason and finals runs in NBA history. However, it's not all roses here, as Jordan's somewhat sociopathic approach to compe ion alienated his fare share of teammates.

    While he may not be as compe ive as Jordan was, LeBron s a caring and relatively unselfish teammate. Guys love playing with him mainly because he just makes them look better. Playing with LeBron as a shooter is like walking into a buffet, and guys know it. One dimensional shooters like Mike Miller and James Jones have LeBron to thank for extending their careers. Like Jordan, LeBron is also a legendary playoff performer. His 2009 series against Orlando is one of the greatest individual series performances is league history, and that's just the beginning of LeBron's laundry list of brilliant playoff moments. Unfortunately, LeBron's 2-3 Finals record is a blemish, especially when considering how poorly he played it 2 of those Finals losses. The other knock on LeBron from an intagible/teammate perspective is his diva personality.


    Overall: Jordan

    Jordan is the game's greatest ever scorer and compe or. He had next to no weaknesses and achieved a level of success unmatched by anyone not named Bill Russel. LeBron, on the other hand, is the NBA lovechild of Magic and Michael, a great scorer who is an equally lethal playmaker. Unfortunately, when guys are this close talent-wise, the rings and accolades must be used to distinguish them. Jordan achieved greater success, both within the team and individually, and did so in an era that was much tougher on guards rule-wise. For that, I give him the nod.

  19. #69
    Savvy Veteran spurraider21's Avatar
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    intangibles aka i need a bs subjective tiebreaker so my guy can "win" the comparison

  20. #70
    Believe.
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    You should be banned from commenting on anything NBA related beyond the second round.

  21. #71
    Groundhog Day TDfan2007's Avatar
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    intangibles aka i need a bs subjective tiebreaker so my guy can "win" the comparison
    You don't believe in using concepts such as leadership when comparing players in a team sport?

  22. #72
    SeaGOAT midnightpulp's Avatar
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    Great post Mid when you are on you are on. Sometimes, I wonder why you slum/troll with some of your stuff. You are a fine writer. Even if you get misguided from time to time. Props. Please more of this and less of the poo slinging.
    Thanks, brother.

    I wasn't trolling with my latest Kobe post, though. The Gasol/Kobe's Legacy post and the like are troll posts.

  23. #73
    Savvy Veteran spurraider21's Avatar
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    You don't believe in using concepts such as leadership when comparing players in a team sport?
    i dont see an objective way to say MJ was definitively better than LeBron in that regard

  24. #74
    Groundhog Day TDfan2007's Avatar
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    i dont see an objective way to say MJ was definitively better than LeBron in that regard
    This is true, but I never claimed objectivity. They're called intangibles for a reason...difficult to interpret objectively, but still an important part of the game

  25. #75
    Believe. Malik Hairston's Avatar
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    Damn, Billy knew it all along, tbh..

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