Bowen vs. Danny Green?

[in2deep]

Bowen is one of the best defenders ever. Green can't hold his jockstrap.

Bowen all the way

[in2deep]

Bowen woulda shut down CP3 btw

[dweaver99027]

Bowen would have fouled out by halftime.

[HarlemHeat37]

Bowen woulda shut down CP3 btw

We already saw a series where he had to guard him, it wasn't pretty..

[HarlemHeat37]

Most of the older posters will naturally prefer Bowen for a couple of reasons:

1- nostalgia
2- revisionist history
3- old fans love unquantifiable, silly traits like "killer instinct" that have virtually no effect on a game

That's fine, I don't really care, but it's evident..I guess you could argue that the metrics crowd will prefer Green since virtually all his advanced numbers dominate Bowen's..

Some of the arguments against Green don't make much sense in this comparison, though..unlike most role players, Green doesn't benefit from a conventional hierarchy of an elite team, which is generally at least 1 superstar and multiple stars, which allows a role player to have a defined responsibility on the team, and less weight on his performance..

The reason Green's inconsistencies are more glaring is because of the role he is asked to play on the Spurs..the team relies on his offensive production in playoff series', there is a strong correlation between Green's output and the Spurs' W/L record in both the regular season and playoffs..

His shooting slumps are not more frequent than other role players, but there's the perception that they are due the role he is asked to play on the Spurs..I can't even recall an example of a role player getting called out for struggling in games 6 and games 7 of an NBA Finals when the opposing defense began treating him as the major priority, which is unheard of(and a major reason why Duncan finally got going in the series, he had a ton of room to operate)..

Bowen's offensive game had virtually no impact on the Spurs..his role was clear, and it worked because he player on a team with the best big man in the NBA and 2 perimeter stars that carried the offense..there was no chance in that any team was ever going to game plan for Bowen like the Heat ever did for Green in games 6 and 7 of that series, or even ever, actually..

Part of the reason there's the perception that Bowen was more consistent is because he had almost no role in the offense..he took a few shots per game, and nobody cared if he made them, they had no effect on the result, tbh..

Take that however you want it, but you are actually arguing in Green's favor when you attempt to cite these silly reasons for Bowen's superiority..

[Obstructed_View]

There's a big gap being Pop not liking Bowen and Pop not already having years of experience with him. What I'm saying now is that if 2005 Bowen showed up to camp as an unknown to Pop, he'd struggle to get minutes. There really wasn't anything ambiguous about what I said.

There's nothing ambiguous about it, it's just re ed. You added a random qualifier (Pop not knowing Bowen) that didn't make any sense and then your clarification (if he showed up to camp as an unknown) was just as stupid. If Bowen showed up without bones in his legs he'd be a bad player too, but it's not sensible to bring up. All things being equal except age, 2005 Bowen's a far better defender than anyone on the Spurs. He wasn't physically more gifted than Kawhi or DG, so they could certainly be that good someday. They certainly have the mindset and the work ethic to do it.

like Bruce was more than a speed bump in that series.

I'm not sure what you're referring to, but I didn't post that Bowen defended Dirk to refute anything you said, or mentioning a specific series (though I can guess what series you're referring to, and I'm sure your opinions on it probably provide a lot of laughs). I posted it to point out that Bowen was the go-to defender when Pop needed someone, which is testament to what a ing incredible defender he was. Again, I love Danny Green, but if Pop needs someone shut down, he puts Kawhi on him, not Green. If Bowen were on the team with both of them, Bowen would get the defensive assignment ahead of both of them. Not a shot against either of them, as they're incredible defenders.

Bowen "invented" the 3/D role (he didn't, but whatever)

So when you're ready to give the name of who did, we'll all be here waiting. There's no discussion of the term without a mention of Bowen.

In that NBA, it was okay to have wings that parked in the corner. Now, the only players who can get away with only shooting from the corner are bigs like Ibaka. Bowen was decent from the corner (not prolific by today's standards), but he was abysmal from other places around the arc (30 percent from what I've calculated). In Bowen's NBA, teams were still figuring out how to defend without helping off the corner. In today's league, defenses are much smarter and know how to not give up that rotation easily. And because Bruce couldn't really move along the arc, he'd be even easier to guard than he was then. Simply put, the spacing he provided back then would be less impactful in today's league. Maybe he gets credit for being a pioneer, but the game has evolved to require more than Bowen showed offensively. Maybe with his work ethic, he would have figured out how to do enough.

So in the short five seasons since he left, the entire ing league has adapted to defend the spots he was best from, teams have scrambled to find players that do exactly what he does, but he doesn't deserve any praise from you beyond 'maybe he was a pioneer'.

But the gulf between him and Green is massive.

From a 3 and D standpoint, you're correct, and Bowen's better. Green has a lot of room to improve, and I think he can become far more than just a 3 and D player. He didn't handle the ball any better than Bowen did a few years ago, and he's developed some really nice moves around the basket, and his handles are much better than they were.

[Frank Dux]

No when you come into a thread you discuss the point of the thread, since when did you have internet?

Are you saying that pointing out DG's 2-19 is not pertinent to the discussion going on this thread? Really? Are you in that much denial? It's just a reality worth noting that for some reason you refuse to acknowledge. You can still acknowledge that and argue that DG is better. That might actually help you come across as credible. And clearly I don't spend as much of my free time on the internet as you do, dork.

Oh so if the people who chose green over bowen, who presented facts and stats are just trolling over those who picked bowen who have nothing more to offer than nostalgia and sweet memories of the past not acknowledging that the stats say otherwise and that he played with prime duncan and manu? Okay

No, there are plenty of reasonable people presenting arguments in DG's favor, you're just not one of them. Your original post was lame attempt to ruffle feathers and that's why you can't acknowledge that DG's 2-19 significantly contributed to the losses in Games 6 and 7—it undermines your horribly played out MO.

And in response to the point about Duncan and Manu, DG gets to play with old Duncan (who still one of the best defensive bigs in the league), Kawhi (the current DPOY) and the deepest Spurs squad in the history of the team. Just something to think about.

[MaNu4Tres]

Most of the older posters will naturally prefer Bowen for a couple of reasons:

1- nostalgia
2- revisionist history
3- old fans love unquantifiable, silly traits like "killer instinct" that have virtually no effect on a game

That's fine, I don't really care, but it's evident..I guess you could argue that the metrics crowd will prefer Green since virtually all his advanced numbers dominate Bowen's..

Some of the arguments against Green don't make much sense in this comparison, though..unlike most role players, Green doesn't benefit from a conventional hierarchy of an elite team, which is generally at least 1 superstar and multiple stars, which allows a role player to have a defined responsibility on the team, and less weight on his performance..

The reason Green's inconsistencies are more glaring is because of the role he is asked to play on the Spurs..the team relies on his offensive production in playoff series', there is a strong correlation between Green's output and the Spurs' W/L record in both the regular season and playoffs..

His shooting slumps are not more frequent than other role players, but there's the perception that they are due the role he is asked to play on the Spurs..I can't even recall an example of a role player getting called out for struggling in games 6 and games 7 of an NBA Finals when the opposing defense began treating him as the major priority, which is unheard of(and a major reason why Duncan finally got going in the series, he had a ton of room to operate)..

Bowen's offensive game had virtually no impact on the Spurs..his role was clear, and it worked because he player on a team with the best big man in the NBA and 2 perimeter stars that carried the offense..there was no chance in that any team was ever going to game plan for Bowen like the Heat ever did for Green in games 6 and 7 of that series, or even ever, actually..

Part of the reason there's the perception that Bowen was more consistent is because he had almost no role in the offense..he took a few shots per game, and nobody cared if he made them, they had no effect on the result, tbh..

Take that however you want it, but you are actually arguing in Green's favor when you attempt to cite these silly reasons for Bowen's superiority..

All of this.

[barbacoataco]

The revisionist history is the effort to forget that Bowen was universally regarded as the best perimeter defender of his era by people like Pop and Kobe. Now he's a guy who would be average at best because the level of play is so much higher than it was 7-10 years ago. That's why a Tim Duncan who is a shadow of his old self is still able to dominate the league.

[barbacoataco]

This idea that the league us so much better is ridiculous. It's better than it was in the 70's-80's, but not any better than the 2000's. The 2001 Lakers with prime Shaq and Kobe would with today's "hands off" rules. If anything there us more parity today top to bottom, but the elite teams have a hard time meeting salary cap and holding together Allstar rosters.

[Hoops Czar]

Most of the older posters will naturally prefer Bowen for a couple of reasons:

1- nostalgia
2- revisionist history
3- old fans love unquantifiable, silly traits like "killer instinct" that have virtually no effect on a game

That's fine, I don't really care, but it's evident..I guess you could argue that the metrics crowd will prefer Green since virtually all his advanced numbers dominate Bowen's..

Some of the arguments against Green don't make much sense in this comparison, though..unlike most role players, Green doesn't benefit from a conventional hierarchy of an elite team, which is generally at least 1 superstar and multiple stars, which allows a role player to have a defined responsibility on the team, and less weight on his performance..

The reason Green's inconsistencies are more glaring is because of the role he is asked to play on the Spurs..the team relies on his offensive production in playoff series', there is a strong correlation between Green's output and the Spurs' W/L record in both the regular season and playoffs..

His shooting slumps are not more frequent than other role players, but there's the perception that they are due the role he is asked to play on the Spurs..I can't even recall an example of a role player getting called out for struggling in games 6 and games 7 of an NBA Finals when the opposing defense began treating him as the major priority, which is unheard of(and a major reason why Duncan finally got going in the series, he had a ton of room to operate)..

Bowen's offensive game had virtually no impact on the Spurs..his role was clear, and it worked because he player on a team with the best big man in the NBA and 2 perimeter stars that carried the offense..there was no chance in that any team was ever going to game plan for Bowen like the Heat ever did for Green in games 6 and 7 of that series, or even ever, actually..

Part of the reason there's the perception that Bowen was more consistent is because he had almost no role in the offense..he took a few shots per game, and nobody cared if he made them, they had no effect on the result, tbh..

Take that however you want it, but you are actually arguing in Green's favor when you attempt to cite these silly reasons for Bowen's superiority..

Interesting. I can't speak for others but, when I talk about Green's inconsistencies, I'm talking about his defense. I can't understand why you went off on a tangent describing Bowen's inep ude on offense. Bowen was a SF with a career 11.4 USG% and Green is a SG with a career 17.4 USG%. I think it's pretty clear who has/had more plays run for him. Anyone with half a brain knows Bowen wasn't much of an offensive asset other than his occasional spot up three's that were generated from collapsing defenses and double teams.

But the bolded. you don't have to go back too far to recall a perimeter role player being treated like a major priority. See Kawhi Leonard on JJ Red . It's actually quite common to set up your defense to shutdown a particular role player that can light it up from behind the arc.

Let's not make this too complicated. Green is your basic 3 and D player who can't create his own shot and can't dribble through traffic but, is one of the more prolific and clutch three point shooters we have in the league today (not history of the NBA). Bowen wasn't used much at all on offense and he rarely ever had plays run specifically for him.

[timtonymanu]

This thread has managed to overrate Bruce Bowen while also underrating Danny Green. And I consider myself a huge Bowen homer. But a lot of these arguments are silly.

[Chinook]

There's nothing ambiguous about it, it's just re ed. You added a random qualifier (Pop not knowing Bowen) that didn't make any sense and then your clarification (if he showed up to camp as an unknown) was just as stupid. If Bowen showed up without bones in his legs he'd be a bad player too, but it's not sensible to bring up. All things being equal except age, 2005 Bowen's a far better defender than anyone on the Spurs. He wasn't physically more gifted than Kawhi or DG, so they could certainly be that good someday. They certainly have the mindset and the work ethic to do it.

Oh, so Bowen was better because he was. Great argument there. My point is that Pop will play players based on trust, but if Bowen showed up having to earn trust, his skills wouldn't carve out a rotation spot. Again, not a really hard point to get, and not trivial, seeing as you're proving my point that it's hard to separate Bowen's actual level of player with his reputation.

I'm not sure what you're referring to, but I didn't post that Bowen defended Dirk to refute anything you said, or mentioning a specific series (though I can guess what series you're referring to, and I'm sure your opinions on it probably provide a lot of laughs). I posted it to point out that Bowen was the go-to defender when Pop needed someone, which is testament to what a ing incredible defender he was. Again, I love Danny Green, but if Pop needs someone shut down, he puts Kawhi on him, not Green. If Bowen were on the team with both of them, Bowen would get the defensive assignment ahead of both of them. Not a shot against either of them, as they're incredible defenders

The point is that Bowen DIDN'T defend Dirk well (meaning he wasn't effective, not that he didn't try). So it's really not a credit to his skill to argue that Pop put Bruce on him. That whole idea of Bowen being able to legitimately guard 1-4 was debunked early on. That you whip it out here like it's a new or even valid point just makes everyone have to go back and address it again. It's boring. Again, the idea that 'Pop loves him, and he's smarter than you so you're wrong' is a logical fallacy. If you have to rely on Pop's credibility to bolster your own, then you don't really have an argument.

So when you're ready to give the name of who did, we'll all be here waiting. There's no discussion of the term without a mention of Bowen.

Last time I checked, Bowen doesn't have the nickname '3D'.

So in the short five seasons since he left, the entire ing league has adapted to defend the spots he was best from, teams have scrambled to find players that do exactly what he does, but he doesn't deserve any praise from you beyond 'maybe he was a pioneer'.

Because the league has adapted passed that. What he did isn't good enough anymore. It was barely good enough then, hence why he had to work so hard to do it. Maybe under the pressures of this NBA, Bowen could have done more. But there's no reason to assume that he'd be a dynamic shooter when he struggled so badly anywhere that wasn't the corner.

From a 3 and D standpoint, you're correct, and Bowen's better. Green has a lot of room to improve, and I think he can become far more than just a 3 and D player. He didn't handle the ball any better than Bowen did a few years ago, and he's developed some really nice moves around the basket, and his handles are much better than they were.

So another 'Bowen's better because he's better' argument. It's really almost inarguable that Green's offense is in another league than Bowen's, and despite your nostalgia and unwillingness to look at things objectively, Green is at least Bowen's peer in most defensive measures despite being in a league that's less friendly to defenders and despite not having one of the best defensive players in his prime backing him up. I get that you don't WANT to change your opinion and so won't. But that doesn't actually give the Bowen side any more merit.

[Spursfanfromafar]

Bowen - better defender.

Green - far better overall player.

[Cowboys_Wear_Spurs]

Yeah that's crazy to say Bowen couldn't play in today's NBA. There are plenty of defensive specialists who aren't eve as good as him playing for contending teams.

Tony Allen anyone. Allen was owning the GS before he got injured. And if he and Gasol didn't get injured, along with Conley getting even more injured, Memphis probably would have won that series.

Any team in the NBA would love to have 03-05 version of Bowen. He was hands down the best perimeter defender in the league and would be such even in today's NBA.

Bowen wasn't offensively limited. Spurs had Prime Duncan, Parker and Manu getting most of the touches. You had Horry, Barry and Finley as well. Bowen honestly was just the 7-8 offensive option on the team, and chipped in when needed.

[Cowboys_Wear_Spurs]

Well, there's a lot that goes into that. 2005 Tim was hurt during the playoffs. So I dunno how much more mobile he was than 2015 Tim. But Green with Prime Tim in the handcheck era would have been a BAMF. Bowen with Old Time in this finesse era would have had to adjust a lot about how he played defense.

How do you know that, especially when the Spurs recently had Splitter, one of the best bigman defenders in the league and better than Nzar, Elson, Oberto, etc ever were. Splitter was a better defender than '03 Drob w/ back problems and on his last leg (not as good as a rebounder still, but better overall defender). So old a Duncan and prime Splitter equates to Prime Duncan and whoever else the Spur had playing next to him during the Bowen era of the Spurs.

I'll take it from Kobe who said Bowen has the BEST DEFENDER he ever faced. Quit judging Bowen from the 07-08 years when he was already 37-38 yo old. in '03-'05, Bowen was left on an Island most nights.

[Chinook]

How do you know that, especially when the Spurs recently had Splitter, one of the best bigman defenders in the league and better than Nzar, Elson, Oberto, etc ever were. Splitter was a better defender than '03 Drob w/ back problems and on his last leg (not as good as a rebounder still, but better overall defender). So old a Duncan and prime Splitter equates to Prime Duncan and whoever else the Spur had playing next to him during the Bowen era of the Spurs.

I'll take it from Kobe who said Bowen has the BEST DEFENDER he ever faced. Quit judging Bowen from the 07-08 years when he was already 37-38 yo old. in '03-'05, Bowen was left on an Island most nights.

Again, it's not an actual point to say, "So and so said Bowen was better, so he was." And Tim is an all-time great, and in his prime, he was possibly the best defensive big ever. Splitter is one of the best defenders in the league when healthy, but he wasn't Prime Duncan. And Old Tim is great when he's in a phonebooth, but he's abysmal at giving help away from the paint.

Anyway, even if you assume that the defensive bigs are the same, Bowen still played a type of defense that is specifically banned in today's league. It's quite an adjustment to go from being able to put your hands on a guy to having players like Harden and Durant who literally base a lot of their offense on drawing fouls from minimal contact.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

People talking about Bruce while having no clue about him...

Stick to trolling, kid, you don't have the level to do more.

This. Green is an excellent defender, and one of the best I've ever seen at defending in the open court, but Bruce routinely shut down virtually everyone he was put on. The guy had phenomenally quick feet, excellent anticipation, and played one of the greatest games of psychological warfare the NBA has ever seen.

Still, no reason Danny can't join him up there if he plays his career out well.

[Cowboys_Wear_Spurs]

Again, it's not an actual point to say, "So and so said Bowen was better, so he was." And Tim is an all-time great, and in his prime, he was possibly the best defensive big ever. Splitter is one of the best defenders in the league when healthy, but he wasn't Prime Duncan. And Old Tim is great when he's in a phonebooth, but he's abysmal at giving help away from the paint.

Anyway, even if you assume that the defensive bigs are the same, Bowen still played a type of defense that is specifically banned in today's league. It's quite an adjustment to go from being able to put your hands on a guy to having players like Harden and Durant who literally base a lot of their offense on drawing fouls from minimal contact.

I disagree with this. Guys like Ariza, Allen, Bradley, etc. and last year Kawhi, got away with this style of play because they are known well defender. The refs are biased in this regards. If your a no name player, they will call tick tack fouls on you. But once you have established yourself in the league as a premier defender, they allow said person more contact in defending.

Prime example was the '13 and '14. The first finals, Kawhi couldn't even breathe on Lebron before the refs called a foul. But the 2nd finals, Kawhi played him the same and probably even a little more physical and the refs didn't call those same ticky tack fouls.

Bowen did a lot of bumping, but he was always squared up and in front of his man. Which technically isn't a foul as long as you beat your man to the spot. Allen/Bradley play defense the same way Bowen did so yes, that kinda of defense is still allowed. But the thing is, very few players can play defense at that level nowadays, where you are constantly moving your feet and staying in front of your man.

[timtonymanu]

WHAT DID DANNY PROVE YET ???????

Was a game away from winning Finals MVP or at least had a strong case. He's the best PG defender in the league but I'm sure people will scoff at that comment based on the thread asking how much the Spurs should pay him. Shot over 45% from 3 in the playoffs in 2013 and 2014.

Again, I'm a huge Bowen fan but I actually prefer Danny Green over him if we're talking who's better overall.

[Chinook]

I disagree with this. Guys like Ariza, Allen, Bradley, etc. and last year Kawhi, got away with this style of play because they are known well defender. The refs are biased in this regards. If your a no name player, they will call tick tack fouls on you. But once you have established yourself in the league as a premier defender, they allow said person more contact in defending.

A handcheck is illegal no matter what. It's literally the way the Spurs hack, because it's easy to see and doesn't really bother the guy getting fouled. No one is hand-checking their guys in today's league consistently. You're right that body contact is often up for debate, but that's not hand contact (or foot contact in Bowen's case). And if you don't think Green gets a ton of respect for contact, I don't know what to tell you.

Prime example was the '13 and '14. The first finals, Kawhi couldn't even breathe on Lebron before the refs called a foul. But the 2nd finals, Kawhi played him the same and probably even a little more physical and the refs didn't call those same ticky tack fouls.

Leonard drew a lot of ticky-tack calls from Wade that year. Dwyane is just like Harden and Durant in that regard. Lebron played so close to the basket that he didn't really draw that many cheap fouls either year.

Bowen did a lot of bumping, but he was always squared up and in front of his man. Which technically isn't a foul as long as you beat your man to the spot. Allen/Bradley play defense the same way Bowen did so yes, that kinda of defense is still allowed. But the thing is, very few players can play defense at that level nowadays, where you are constantly moving your feet and staying in front of your man

It depends. Players hardly ever get away with that on Harden. It's not a foul to stop a guy from driving by beating him to a spot, but if that guy goes into a shooting motion while you're moving and hits you, that's free throws. In addition to the rules changing, players have gotten better at taking advantage of those rules. That doesn't even mention that the game being played farther from the basket means that contact is often more noticeable when it occurs.

[Cowboys_Wear_Spurs]

Here is a guy who plays defense pretty identical to Bowen in today's NBA. When I first saw Bradley play in his rookie season, I knew and said he was going to be the best defensive PG in this league. And boy is he ever. I love Green, but he is not this good. This is Bowen level type of defense.



http://www.masslive.com/celtics/inde...bradley_b.html

And to the person that said media awards to matter too much, in Bradley's case, I would say it's the case. Like he said in the article, the guy probably is the best ball on ball defender in the league, much like Bowen was back in the day.

[Chinook]

If that's what you think Bowen's defense looked like, I'm not sure you remember Bruce at all. And this is not to mean that Bowen was better or worse than Avery. It's just that's not what Bowen was like at all.

[Cowboys_Wear_Spurs]

A handcheck is illegal no matter what. It's literally the way the Spurs hack, because it's easy to see and doesn't really bother the guy getting fouled. No one is hand-checking their guys in today's league consistently. You're right that body contact is often up for debate, but that's not hand contact (or foot contact in Bowen's case). And if you don't think Green gets a ton of respect for contact, I don't know what to tell you.



Leonard drew a lot of ticky-tack calls from Wade that year. Dwyane is just like Harden and Durant in that regard. Lebron played so close to the basket that he didn't really draw that many cheap fouls either year.



It depends. Players hardly ever get away with that on Harden. It's not a foul to stop a guy from driving by beating him to a spot, but if that guy goes into a shooting motion while you're moving and hits you, that's free throws. In addition to the rules changing, players have gotten better at taking advantage of those rules. That doesn't even mention that the game being played farther from the basket means that contact is often more noticeable when it occurs.

Go watch the Bradley video. Hand checking has been illegal before Bowen even joined the Spurs. Bruce just has super quick hands and feet like another guy named Bruce, where he had the ability to stay in front of almost anyone in his prime

Green guarded Wade, whose was injured as well. Most of those fouls came off Lebron. I watched the series. A couple were Wade but most came from guarding Lebron. And that doesn't matter. The fact is they were ticky tack crap that the refs didn't call on Kwahi once he established himself in the league as a premier defender.

No, the league changed the rule or clarified it that if a defensive player is at the spot and jumps straight up and the offensive player JUMPS into that player, no foul is called. Harden, like KA, are great at juking guys to jump AT THEM. If you Jump straight up, its no a foul. But these guys jump at them and all the offensive player has to do is make contact at that point.

And here is a good clip of Bowen defense. Notice how after every pick, he recovers and is still able to contest almost every shot. Same can't be said for Green, well at least not at this point.

[Cowboys_Wear_Spurs]

If that's what you think Bowen's defense looked like, I'm not sure you remember Bruce at all. And this is not to mean that Bowen was better or worse than Avery. It's just that's not what Bowen was like at all.

Go watch the vid I just posted. Very similar as Bruce stuck to his man like white on rice. I remember Bowen's defense quite vividly. And Green is not close to being as good as Bowen. Green is very good, but Bowen's defense was legendary at times during his prime.