Bowen vs. Danny Green?

[Chinook]

Go watch the vid I just posted. Very similar as Bruce stuck to his man like white on rice. I remember Bowen's defense quite vividly. And Green is not close to being as good as Bowen. Green is very good, but Bowen's defense was legendary at times during his prime.

I watched the entire vid. You apparently didn't, since you said that Bradley and Bowen both defended by beating their men to the spot, when Avery didn't do that more than once in the video. Instead, he kept getting chase-down blocks and reaching steals. That simply wasn't Bowen, as the "Bruce was better than his number suggest" crowd can tell you.

Again, if you want to believe Green is not as good as Bowen was, no one can stop you. But your evidence simply hasn't been up to snuff.

[Chinook]

Go watch the Bradley video. Hand checking has been illegal before Bowen even joined the Spurs. Bruce just has super quick hands and feet like another guy named Bruce, where he had the ability to stay in front of almost anyone in his prime

Serious question: Do you know what hand-checking is?

Green guarded Wade, whose was injured as well. Most of those fouls came off Lebron. I watched the series. A couple were Wade but most came from guarding Lebron. And that doesn't matter. The fact is they were ticky tack crap that the refs didn't call on Kwahi once he established himself in the league as a premier defender.

Just everything you "watched", I don't think you looked at it very closely.

No, the league changed the rule or clarified it that if a defensive player is at the spot and jumps straight up and the offensive player JUMPS into that player, no foul is called. Harden, like KA, are great at juking guys to jump AT THEM. If you Jump straight up, its no a foul. But these guys jump at them and all the offensive player has to do is make contact at that point.

The league made that ruling ... and it had almost no effect on how officials called those plays. And if you think it's natural to both beat a guy to a spot (in the way that Bruce did) and jump straight up, then I don't know what to say.

And here is a good clip of Bowen defense. Notice how after every pick, he recovers and is still able to contest almost every shot. Same can't be said for Green, well at least not at this point.

It's called "going under the screen". Those are open shots all day against KD and Curry. Though that's exactly the way you want to play Kobe, and Bowen deserves his due for being great on him.

[Cowboys_Wear_Spurs]

I watched the entire vid. You apparently didn't, since you said that Bradley and Bowen both defended by beating their men to the spot, when Avery didn't do that more than once in the video. Instead, he kept getting chase-down blocks and reaching steals. That simply wasn't Bowen, as the "Bruce was better than his number suggest" crowd can tell you.

Again, if you want to believe Green is not as good as Bowen was, no one can stop you. But your evidence simply hasn't been up to snuff.

Most of Bradley steals are him being front of his man. And also, the chase down stuff you mention, that is exactly how Bowen played defense. He never gave up on a play.



And here is Green's defense some nights with the Spurs. Green letting Jimmer go off is what cost the Spurs this game, as I actually watched it. Funny how people post this for Jimmer highlights on the thread of his.

Green is not as quick as Bowen. I don't get these people that say Green is more athletic than Bowen was, because nothing could be farther from the truth.

Green has some nights he stellar, but mostly he is just very good. Bowen, pretty much every night, was Stellar or Beyond. I have watched both play many many games. And Green is not on Bowen's level. Bradley is, Kawhi is, Allen is, but Green is in that tier below these types of defenders.

[Chinook]

Most of Bradley steals are him being front of his man. And also, the chase down stuff you mention, that is exactly how Bowen played defense. He never gave up on a play.

Green is one of the top-two transition defenders in the game. If you're going to actually sit then and say that chase-down blocks are something Bowen has over Danny, it's pretty clear why I keep find a ton of fault in your reasoning.

And here is Green's defense some nights with the Spurs. Green letting Jimmer go off is what cost the Spurs this game, as I actually watched it. Funny how people post this for Jimmer highlights on the thread of his.

Green made exactly one defensive mistake in that sequence, which was going under the Davis screen on Fredette's second three. He allowed two additional scores where he closed hard to prevent the threes. If Jimmer is going to drive into the teeth of your defense and score on you, that's a much bigger issue than what Green did.

But again, it doesn't surprise me that you would "watch" this and come to an erroneous conclusion.

Green is not as quick as Bowen. I don't get these people that say Green is more athletic than Bowen was, because nothing could be farther from the truth.

I don't disagree. Bowen was a great athlete. But more people use that as an excuse for Bruce than as a pejorative. Green isn't as quick as Bowen was, but his anticipation is better.

Green has some nights he stellar, but mostly he is just very good. Bowen, pretty much every night, was Stellar or Beyond. I have watched both play many many games. And Green is not on Bowen's level. Bradley is, Kawhi is, Allen is, but Green is in that tier below these types of defenders.

Again, if you want to believe that, I can't and don't care to stop you. But seriously have something more substantive than this.

[Cowboys_Wear_Spurs]

Serious question: Do you know what hand-checking is?



Just everything you "watched", I don't think you looked at it very closely.



The league made that ruling ... and it had almost no effect on how officials called those plays. And if you think it's natural to both beat a guy to a spot (in the way that Bruce did) and jump straight up, then I don't know what to say.



It's called "going under the screen". Those are open shots all day against KD and Curry. Though that's exactly the way you want to play Kobe, and Bowen deserves his due for being great on him.

Yet, despite going under those screens, Bowen still contested almost every 3 Kobe. He played that way against Allen, VC, Van Horn, Dirk, Marion, etc. I believe for his career, Bruce held players to just under 30% 3p shooting. And you are talking about guys that were high 30's low 40 % 3pt shooters for their careers.

What's funny about your comment, Pop PUTS KAWHI on KD and Curry, NOT GREEN, I wonder why. Green does great job shutting down spot shooters like Thompson and such. But guys with handles like Curry, Paul, Harden, etc. that come off the pnr a lot, Green gets beat pretty bad at times.

[Chinook]

Pop PUTS KAWHI on KD and Curry, NOT GREEN

Never say you watch games anymore after making that comment. Like seriously, if you even watched one game recently against OKC and GS, you'd know you were wrong.

You're doing more harm than good to the Bowen cause at this point.

[Hoops Czar]

Most of Bradley steals are him being front of his man. And also, the chase down stuff you mention, that is exactly how Bowen played defense. He never gave up on a play.



And here is Green's defense some nights with the Spurs. Green letting Jimmer go off is what cost the Spurs this game, as I actually watched it. Funny how people post this for Jimmer highlights on the thread of his.

Green is not as quick as Bowen. I don't get these people that say Green is more athletic than Bowen was, because nothing could be farther from the truth.

Green has some nights he stellar, but mostly he is just very good. Bowen, pretty much every night, was Stellar or Beyond. I have watched both play many many games. And Green is not on Bowen's level. Bradley is, Kawhi is, Allen is, but Green is in that tier below these types of defenders.

You'd be surprised how often scrubs go off on Green but when Bowen let a future HOF'er in his prime like Dirk or Nash go off on him, he's considered overrated. When Bowen contests a shot and it goes in, it's considered bad defense. When Green is out of position and the opposing player he's guarding misses a wide open shot, it's considered good defense according to box score geniuses. Green is good but, he's way too inconsistent to be breathing in Bowen's air space.

[Cowboys_Wear_Spurs]

Green made one mistake. No its not that. Its just that Green isn't great guarding players with good handles. That is why Jimmer juked him to get a few open looks.

That is why the rockets have been a thorn on the Spurs side of late. Because Harden own Greens. And that's the difference b/n Bowen and Green. Bowen could stop and contain players with excellent handles consistently, Green cannot.

Bowen would completely shut down just spot up shooters like Peja and Marion. Peja was avg 23 ppg then dropped to 8 ppg once Bowen was one him in '08 series. Peja was avg like 18 ppg that season and in the playoffs. Marion as I mentioned before, was a 20 ppg scorer, only avg 7 ppg against Bowen. Green does a very good job of containing these types of players, but never on this level.

Name 1 series where an opponent numbers dropped that drastically with Green as the primary defender. And I mentioned before, Ray Allen was the only player not to have a huge drop statistically with Bowen defending him. His numbers were down, but just not a huge steep as every other players were.

[Chinook]

Green made one mistake. No its not that. Its just that Green isn't great guarding players with good handles. That is why Jimmer juked him to get a few open looks.

I can't see how to explain this other than saying you simply don't know how defense works in basketball.

That is why the rockets have been a thorn on the Spurs side of late. Because Harden own Greens. And that's the difference b/n Bowen and Green. Bowen could stop and contain players with excellent handles consistently, Green cannot.

This "handles" line of reasoning is awful. Green is the best PG defender on the team. Do you think it's because none of them can handle the ball?

Bowen would completely shut down just spot up shooters like Peja and Marion. Peja was avg 23 ppg then dropped to 8 ppg once Bowen was one him in '08 series. Peja was avg like 18 ppg that season and in the playoffs. Marion as I mentioned before, was a 20 ppg scorer, only avg 7 ppg against Bowen. Green does a very good job of containing these types of players, but never on this level.

Wait, so was Bowen ALWAYS on the best scorer like you said or was he not? And since when are those the handles guys in league history?

Name 1 series where an opponent numbers dropped that drastically with Green as the primary defender.

Curry shot 10 percent against Green in 2013 before Steph got hurt. He shot way higher against everyone else on the team. This has already been asked and answered in this very thread.

And I mentioned before, Ray Allen was the only player not to have a huge drop statistically with Bowen defending him.

Well him Dirk and Nash and probably others whose performances we haven't really looked into yet. But keep on keeping on, I guess.

[Chinook]

KD: .92 PPP against Green in the WCF
Westbrook: .82 PPP against Green in the WCF.

Looks like a huge drop in efficiency to me.

EDIT: I'll calculate the non-Spurs numbers later. But those are abysmal number for top players.

[Cowboys_Wear_Spurs]

Never say you watch games anymore after making that comment. Like seriously, if you even watched one game recently against OKC and GS, you'd know you were wrong.

You're doing more harm than good to the Bowen cause at this point.

Green was on Durant for like one game. Green occasionally guard Curry now, but if you look at last year, Kawhi was the primary guy to guard both. Green is situational but not the PRIMARY defender.



This video shows who Green guards against GSW. Notice how he did IMO an excellent job guarding Klay for most of this game. But only guarded Curry in one offensive session on this film. This is impact of KAWHI over Green. Kawhi was just coming back from injury and barely played that game and the Spurs get spanked. Next time the Spurs play GSW, Kawhi is fully healthy, guarding Curry, and the Spurs spank the Warriors, handing them the worse defeat of the season last year. And here is the other video of the Spurs handing GSW their 2nd worse defeat of the season after playing the Clips the night before at the Forum. That is the power and impact of Kawhi.

[Chinook]

Green was on Durant for like one game. Green occasionally guard Curry now, but if you look at last year, Kawhi was the primary guy to guard both. Green is situational but not the PRIMARY defender.

Green guarded both Durant and Curry down the stretch in the playoffs. If "situational" means at the most important times, sure.

As far as the vids go, Kawhi barely guarded Curry either time.

[Cowboys_Wear_Spurs]

I can't see how to explain this other than saying you simply don't know how defense works in basketball.



This "handles" line of reasoning is awful. Green is the best PG defender on the team. Do you think it's because none of them can handle the ball?



Wait, so was Bowen ALWAYS on the best scorer like you said or was he not? And since when are those the handles guys in league history?



Curry shot 10 percent against Green in 2013 before Steph got hurt. He shot way higher against everyone else on the team. This has already been asked and answered in this very thread.



Well him Dirk and Nash and probably others whose performances we haven't really looked into yet. But keep on keeping on, I guess.

Wow, I said Peja and Marion were spot up shooters and Bowen completely own these types of players. Please read again. And those two are Bowen's position of SF, with Marion being a combo forward. Name one player that Green completely shut down like this and please show the actual stats, not some stupid %. 23 to 8 ppg and 20 to 7 ppg, something like this.

Curry didn't shoot 10 percent against Green. He shot 35% from 3 in that series and 40% fg. So you are saying he shot 10% against Green, and like 70% against everyone else. Green didn't shut down Curry, he did an excellent job defending him when he did, but he didn't shut him down. Curry still had a decent 2.5:1 TO ratio. So it's not like Bowen, who put guys in the negative.

I know you think Green is better than Bowen, but he isn't and Bowen has the awards, the les and other players and their own coach saying otherwise.

[Cowboys_Wear_Spurs]

Green guarded both Durant and Curry down the stretch in the playoffs. If "situational" means at the most important times, sure.

As far as the vids go, Kawhi barely guarded Curry either time.

Kawhi guarded him in April and the Spurs completely spanked the Warriors. Kawhi guarded him quite a few times in the Nov game, but as I said, it was like one of his first games back from injury in the game in Feb and he hardly played that game.

Green is a very good defender and versatile at that. I am not refuting this which is why I am glad the Spurs retained him. But he is not better than Bowen. And I can't believe the OP got people thinking otherwise.

[Obstructed_View]

Anyway, even if you assume that the defensive bigs are the same, Bowen still played a type of defense that is specifically banned in today's league. It's quite an adjustment to go from being able to put your hands on a guy to having players like Harden and Durant who literally base a lot of their offense on drawing fouls from minimal contact.

Hate to be the one to tell you this, but Bowen won two les AFTER hand checking was eliminated in 2004-2005, playing against guys like Carmelo, Ray Allen, Steve Nash, and Lebron James in the playoffs. The defense Bowen played is the defense Pop has taught for years, which is to defend with your feet, show your hands, and keep your man in the middle of your chest.

[hater]

Lmao scrub green being compared to Bruce

immature spurs fans

[Chinook]

Hate to be the one to tell you this, but Bowen won two les AFTER hand checking was eliminated in 2004-2005, playing against guys like Carmelo, Ray Allen, Steve Nash, and Lebron James in the playoffs. The defense Bowen played is the defense Pop has taught for years, which is to defend with your feet, show your hands, and keep your man in the middle of your chest.

And CWS just said Bowen was a ball thief and chase-down blocker like Bradley's highlight vid. Which legend of Bowen is true?

As far as Bowen having sound defensive technique goes, I don't think anyone on Earth would disagree with that.



But you can tell 2005 that Bowen wasn't hand-checking (and CWS can tell Prime Bowen that he didn't get caught on screens like everyone else).

[Obstructed_View]

Last time I checked, Bowen doesn't have the nickname '3D'.

It's entirely possible that this is the stupidest thing anyone's ever posted. Dennis Scott's nickname was 3D because he shot threes and his first name starts with a D. He didn't play defense. He was not known for defense. Again, if you google the three and D players, 99 percent of them mention Bowen as a pioneer of the position.

Because the league has adapted passed that. What he did isn't good enough anymore.

The league has adapted specifically because of him. What he did is what everyone does now. As I mentioned, the rules are exactly the same as they were in 2005.

It was barely good enough then, hence why he had to work so hard to do it.

He had to work so hard to do it because he didn't have the talent to be in the NBA otherwise. It's the same path many other players have taken to stick in the NBA. One of those guys who has had to work so hard is none other than Danny Green. He didn't show up being able to shoot and to defend.

Maybe under the pressures of this NBA, Bowen could have done more. But there's no reason to assume that he'd be a dynamic shooter when he struggled so badly anywhere that wasn't the corner.

He shot 40-50 percent from the corners. That's ing elite. He was as good or better than anyone in the entire league from that spot. He shot 39 percent from three point range for his career, so it's kind of hard to make an argument that he struggled badly anywhere on the perimeter.

It's really almost inarguable that Green's offense is in another league than Bowen's,

But it's not inarguable, it's pretty clear that Danny Green's offense, though showing signs of surpassing Bowen sooner rather than later, isn't really as huge a difference maker as you claim.

Green is at least Bowen's peer in most defensive measures despite being in a league that's less friendly to defenders

Since that's been debunked, we'll ignore it.

and despite not having one of the best defensive players in his prime backing him up.

I get that you don't WANT to change your opinion and so won't. But that doesn't actually give the Bowen side any more merit.

I fully hope for my opinion to change. Danny Green is an essential part of the Spurs team. He's young and improving, has the upside to be vastly better than Bowen on offense, and he's a winner with a winning at ude. When he helps the Spurs win three les in five years I'm sure we'll be ready to revisit this conversation.

The only real difference in this conversation is that one of us has to make up lies and try to tear down the other player in order to try to make his argument. I think Danny Green is a great player. He's just not as good as Bowen. Yet.

[Obstructed_View]

And CWS just said Bowen was a ball thief and chase-down blocker like Bradley's highlight vid. Which legend of Bowen is true?

As far as Bowen having sound defensive technique goes, I don't think anyone on Earth would disagree with that.



But you can tell 2005 that Bowen wasn't hand-checking (and CWS can tell Prime Bowen that he didn't get caught on screens like everyone else).

So you posted a video of a game where McGrady scored 26 points on 25 shots and the Rockets lost by 13. Bowen scored 11 points, shot .600 from three point range, and had two personal fouls in 37 minutes.

The reason Bowen wasn't hand checking is because it was illegal. Guys that hand check post 2005 don't finish games against hall of fame scorers with two fouls.

[Chinook]

So you posted a video of a game where McGrady scored 26 points on 25 shots and the Rockets lost by 13. Bowen scored 11 points, shot .600 from three point range, and had two personal fouls in 37 minutes.

The reason Bowen wasn't hand checking is because it was illegal. Guys that hand check post 2005 don't finish games against hall of fame scorers with two fouls.

He DID hand-check in that game and just wasn't called for it. Just because there was a rule change doesn't mean that he didn't do it. The evidence is totally in the vid to see.

[Obstructed_View]

And CWS just said Bowen was a ball thief and chase-down blocker like Bradley's highlight vid. Which legend of Bowen is true?

I don't remember Bowen chasing down a lot of steals. He didn't play defense that way, which is why a lot of people, some on this board, don't seem to respect what a difference-maker his defense was. His advanced stats would certainly be better than they are had he gone for steals and blocks, but he didn't get his ego involved, which is a big reason why he was so effective at covering the best players in the world. Deion Sanders didn't get a ton of picks when he was with the Cowboys, you just parked him over there and he'd shut down a side of the field for the other team. That's what Bowen did. You were okay with McGrady going for 30 if he had to take a load of shots to do it, because the rest of the team couldn't shoot a high enough percentage to make up for his missed shots, especially if he wasn't going to the line.

[Cowboys_Wear_Spurs]

And CWS just said Bowen was a ball thief and chase-down blocker like Bradley's highlight vid. Which legend of Bowen is true?

As far as Bowen having sound defensive technique goes, I don't think anyone on Earth would disagree with that.



But you can tell 2005 that Bowen wasn't hand-checking (and CWS can tell Prime Bowen that he didn't get caught on screens like everyone else).

I didn't say that, I said that they similarly in that the stucked to their guy no matter what. Bradley only avg. like 1 spg much like Bowen did. But when their guy got out in front of them, they always chase their defender down. Bowen was not a hand checking defender. Obstruct said it best that and I like said Bowen always moved his feet and stayed squarely in front of his defender. Bowen would literally get bumped like 20+ time a game square in the chest by his defender.



Guys like Carter, Kobe, Lebron, etc. would throw the shoulder, elbows, headbutts etc into Bowen chest night in and night out. And have you ever seen Green get into someone head like this.

[Chinook]

It's entirely possible that this is the stupidest thing anyone's ever posted. Dennis Scott's nickname was 3D because he shot threes and his first name starts with a D. He didn't play defense. He was not known for defense. Again, if you google the three and D players, 99 percent of them mention Bowen as a pioneer of the position.

Were you the one who tried to argue two years ago that LMA was one of the best stretch-fours in the league because Google said so? I'm really starting to think that was you. Even if you weren't the one, you're doing the same thing. "People agree with me," is NOT a vaild argument. It doesn't prove the correctness of your point, only that other people hold it.

The league has adapted specifically because of him. What he did is what everyone does now. As I mentioned, the rules are exactly the same as they were in 2005.

First, you're concatenating two different ideas about the league adapting (defensively with offensively). Again, though, even accepting the idea that Bruce pioneered 3/D players, it doesn't mean he'd be the best at it now, or even passable. That's like saying Bill Russel was the best outlet passer because he was the one who made it famous.

He had to work so hard to do it because he didn't have the talent to be in the NBA otherwise. It's the same path many other players have taken to stick in the NBA. One of those guys who has had to work so hard is none other than Danny Green. He didn't show up being able to shoot and to defend.

Yeah, and he reached his ceiling about as fully as any role-player ever has. So the idea that he could do more is ludicrous. He was atrocious from the non-corner three. Danny isn't. Non-corner threes are better for spacing than corner threes, and the ability to shoot both is even more valuable. Hence why they aren't in the zip code offensively, despite Bowen "inventing" 3/D.

He shot 40-50 percent from the corners. That's ing elite. He was as good or better than anyone in the entire league from that spot. He shot 39 percent from three point range for his career, so it's kind of hard to make an argument that he struggled badly anywhere on the perimeter.

He shot 30 percent from the non-corner three, so it's really easy to make the argument. Bowen for his Spurs' career is a 42.4-percent corner three shooter (he never got near 50 percent even though Danny was 55 percent from one of the corners last season). Green is 42.6 percent as a Spur from that position, while being 42 percent from the non-corner three. Totally doesn't make a difference...

But it's not inarguable, it's pretty clear that Danny Green's offense, though showing signs of surpassing Bowen sooner rather than later, isn't really as huge a difference maker as you claim.

You've presented absolutely no argument for there being no difference between their offensive impacts. There have been quite a few arguments to the contrary in this thread, even from people thinking they're supporting Bowen by using those arguments.

Since that's been debunked, we'll ignore it.

It hasn't been debunked at all. Your idea that Bruce stopped hand-checking (and that the NBA immediately called every instance of hand-checking) simply because of the rule change HAS been debunked.

[Kawhi pic]

So Leonard's Prime Tim now, is he?

I fully hope for my opinion to change. Danny Green is an essential part of the Spurs team. He's young and improving, has the upside to be vastly better than Bowen on offense, and he's a winner with a winning at ude. When he helps the Spurs win three les in five years I'm sure we'll be ready to revisit this conversation.

When Danny gets a top-five GOAT candidate and two other HoFers in their primes to run with him, then I'll consider your rings argument remotely valid.

The only real difference in this conversation is that one of us has to make up lies and try to tear down the other player in order to try to make his argument. I think Danny Green is a great player. He's just not as good as Bowen. Yet.

You're the one who used false arguments over and over again and can't seem to understand that the NBA defensive culture is completely different from the on-the-book NBA rule changes.

[Obstructed_View]

He DID hand-check in that game and just wasn't called for it. Just because there was a rule change doesn't mean that he didn't do it. The evidence is totally in the vid to see.

I just watched the entire video and there wasn't a single hand check by Bowen in the game. Forearm on the back in the post is completely legal, and touching a guy who's got the ball is not a hand check if you don't impede progress. Go pull up a video of this year's finals, and defenders touch each other exactly the same amount. Bowen was an effective defender in two of the first three championships after the rule was changed. If Bowen defended with his hands, as you say, wouldn't his personal foul rate per 36 have gone up? It didn't. Bowen was THE MOST TARGETED defender in the league because so many players complained that he was dirty, yet his personal foul rate per 36 went up by 0.2 in the first two years after the rules were changed.

BTW, the Rockets had 60 points with ten minutes to go, and finished the game with 70 points. Then the video ended. Defense not shown.

[Chinook]

I don't remember Bowen chasing down a lot of steals. He didn't play defense that way, which is why a lot of people, some on this board, don't seem to respect what a difference-maker his defense was. His advanced stats would certainly be better than they are had he gone for steals and blocks, but he didn't get his ego involved, which is a big reason why he was so effective at covering the best players in the world. Deion Sanders didn't get a ton of picks when he was with the Cowboys, you just parked him over there and he'd shut down a side of the field for the other team. That's what Bowen did. You were okay with McGrady going for 30 if he had to take a load of shots to do it, because the rest of the team couldn't shoot a high enough percentage to make up for his missed shots, especially if he wasn't going to the line.

The point of the vid wasn't "OMG look at Bruce get owned", since that's lame. Rather it was for people like you who think Bowen didn't play with his hands to see to that that's false and for people like CWS who think Bowen didn't get caught up on screens when he had to fight over them that that wasn't the case either. Highlights can be deceiving in many ways. But they can debunk absolute statements like yours that Bowen did hand-check (and get away with it) because there was a rules change. He was hand-checking on McGrady's makes. Who knows what he was doing on Tracy's misses?