Bowen vs. Danny Green?

[Chinook]

I just watched the entire video and there wasn't a single hand check by Bowen in the game. Forearm on the back in the post is completely legal, and touching a guy who's got the ball is not a hand check if you don't impede progress. Go pull up a video of this year's finals, and defenders touch each other exactly the same amount. Bowen was an effective defender in two of the first three championships after the rule was changed. If Bowen defended with his hands, as you say, wouldn't his personal foul rate per 36 have gone up? It didn't. Bowen was THE MOST TARGETED defender in the league because so many players complained that he was dirty, yet his personal foul rate per 36 went up by 0.2 in the first two years after the rules were changed.

BTW, the Rockets had 60 points with ten minutes to go, and finished the game with 70 points. Then the video ended. Defense not shown.

Actually watch when McGrady drives (which is when hand-checking would get called), and tell me Bruce isn't pushing him? And his attempts to get open when Bowen his literally grabbing his jersey?

[Cowboys_Wear_Spurs]

The point of the vid wasn't "OMG look at Bruce get owned", since that's lame. Rather it was for people like you who think Bowen didn't play with his hands to see to that that's false and for people like CWS who think Bowen didn't get caught up on screens when he had to fight over them that that wasn't the case either. Highlights can be deceiving in many ways. But they can debunk absolute statements like yours that Bowen did hand-check (and get away with it) because there was a rules change. He was hand-checking on McGrady's makes. Who knows what he was doing on Tracy's misses?

Bowen fought through screens but he was so quick he mostly went under them as the Big would hedge until Bowen recovered. And notice Bowen always had his arms up to deny the entry pass inside to the big if he rolled to the basket and to contest the shot if the shooter did pull up.

Bowen was an awesome defender and extremely intelligent one at that. Kobe even said that Bowen was the only defender he needed screens to get open most of the time. And sometimes the Lakers even set double screens to get Kobe open.



I wrote the above comment before even watch this vid, but Bruce explains his style of defense in a nuts . Notice how when he funneled guys to the Spurs big, he ALWAYS kept his arms up to deny the outlet passes. Bowen had perfect technique in his defense and it was on display nightly.

[Arcadian]

Green is also a better shot blocker. He's had some epic blocks in the last 2-3 seasons...one of the best shot blocking guards I've ever seen.





He almost made Lebron cry on this one

[Obstructed_View]

Were you the one who tried to argue two years ago that LMA was one of the best stretch-fours in the league because Google said so? I'm really starting to think that was you. Even if you weren't the one, you're doing the same thing. "People agree with me," is NOT a vaild argument. It doesn't prove the correctness of your point, only that other people hold it.

I think there was a discussion about what defines a stretch 4, and someone idiotically stated that Lamarcus wasn't one, which is almost as stupid as your refusal to give Bowen any credit for pioneering the 3 and D role.. At some point, when people are rejecting a simple definition, like a 3 and D or a stretch 4, you simply have to go to a source to try to nail it down. Since there's not really a dictionary at a library that contains recent basketball terms, I tried to give you a chance to go look at the discussions about 3 and D players that all show the genesis of the role being Bruce Bowen and Shane Battier. Your response was to tell me about his nickname. Either you're just really really ing stupid or you're just too stubborn to accept how wrong you are on this discussion, no matter how much evidence is produced to confirm it.

First, you're concatenating two different ideas about the league adapting (defensively with offensively).

No, I'm not. Bowen's impact as both a defender and three point shooter are relevant to this discussion. He wasn't a one-way player. His three point shooting was a key. He was elite at both roles, which is why he's a pioneer.

Again, though, even accepting the idea that Bruce pioneered 3/D players, it doesn't mean he'd be the best at it now, or even passable. That's like saying Bill Russel was the best outlet passer because he was the one who made it famous.

You're really spending too much time going off on this tangent about Bowen being the best defender on today's Spurs team. Your saying that Bowen wouldn't be passable now, even if it were true, is like saying that Bill Russell wasn't a good player when he played because teams have learned over the last 50 years how to game plan for all of the things he did, and again, I don't think you're that stupid. You said that the rules allowed Bowen to dominate, which again, isn't true. You're welcome to reject my assertion that his defense was so good that it would make him a great defender today, but that's not the sum total of my argument. It's not even the discussion that people are voting on. It was a hypothetical I made to show how good I think Bowen's defense was.

Yeah, and he reached his ceiling about as fully as any role-player ever has. So the idea that he could do more is ludicrous. He was atrocious from the non-corner three. Danny isn't. Non-corner threes are better for spacing than corner threes, and the ability to shoot both is even more valuable. Hence why they aren't in the zip code offensively, despite Bowen "inventing" 3/D.

Your continued fabrications are becoming tiring. He was not atrocious from anywhere. at your spacing argument, which is completely incorrect. Pop's offense relies most strongly on the corner three. I'd tell you to Google it, but you'll get annoyed at someone showing you evidence.

He shot 30 percent from the non-corner three, so it's really easy to make the argument. Bowen for his Spurs' career is a 42.4-percent corner three shooter (he never got near 50 percent even though Danny was 55 percent from one of the corners last season). Green is 42.6 percent as a Spur from that position, while being 42 percent from the non-corner three. Totally doesn't make a difference....

In 2006, Bowen took 245 three pointers, and 23 of them were NOT from the corners. The Spurs offense relied heavily on his shots from that spot, which is why he took the overwhelming majority of them from that spot. Saying he was atrocious from another position where he shot less than ten percent of his threes is not a valid basis to say that he wasn't a good player. I've got three championship trophies to refute it. Are you calculating attempts in the Green numbers you're mysteriously throwing out there?

You've presented absolutely no argument for there being no difference between their offensive impacts. There have been quite a few arguments to the contrary in this thread, even from people thinking they're supporting Bowen by using those arguments.

I haven't attempted to make the argument that there's no difference between their offensive impacts. Bowen was a deadly corner three point shooter with a hall of fame post player that he spread the floor for. In that system, his offensive impact was far higher than Danny Green's offensive impact on one of the highest scoring teams in the league. I simply said that Danny Green has all the tools to become a far better offensive player than Bowen ever was. I fully expect that to be the case this year. Green's handles are improving season by season, and his midrange game and ability to penetrate have really gotten good.

It hasn't been debunked at all. Your idea that Bruce stopped hand-checking (and that the NBA immediately called every instance of hand-checking) simply because of the rule change HAS been debunked.

I never said that Bruce stopped hand checking. I said that he never hand checked in the first place. Bowen always played defense with his feet. It's part of Pop's defensive philosophy, and I submitted Bowen's personal foul numbers before and after to back it up. You posted a video where he doesn't hand check. You posted a video where McGrady has the same number of shot attempts as points in a game they lost because you, for all your whining about it, apparently Googled "Bowen gets schooled". You said that he played under a different set of rules, which is incorrect, since he won two of his three les after the rules were changed. Have your mom drive you to the library so you can look up, "debunked."

So Leonard's Prime Tim now, is he?

Oh, I'm sorry. You said that Bowen had one of the best defenders in his prime backing him up. Are you saying that the defensive player of the year is not one of the best defenders in the league, or are you going to try to argue that Kawhi is not yet in his prime? I think Danny Green is an excellent defender, regardless of who he's playing alongside. It's sad that your argument is so weak that you try to make up about Bowen's abilities.

When Danny gets a top-five GOAT candidate and two other HoFers in their primes to run with him, then I'll consider your rings argument remotely valid.

If you think that Bowen wasn't a vital cog in those le teams, I have news for you: You're alone in that. I'd make the retired number argument as well, but I'm sure you've got a ridiculous hypothetical to attach to it.

You're the one who used false arguments over and over again and can't seem to understand that the NBA defensive culture is completely different from the on-the-book NBA rule changes.

I'm sure everyone here is going to be fascinated by your extensive list of my false arguments. The NBA defensive culture has changed because every team wants a Bruce Bowen to play solid defense and keep the other team's best player from scoring efficiently. The NBA offensive culture has changed because every team wants a Bruce Bowen to shoot 40 percent from the corners. None of that has anything to do with a rule change, because Bowen did most of his damage in the league after the rule change you just won't shut up about.

[BackHome]

For me I am looking at them from two different view points for Bowen it was his defense that what got him on the team and that is what kept him on the team. The dude won awards and helped us win a couple of rings by being very good at that. For me Green made the team on his three point shooting that is what keeping him on the team is his outside shot (he can't dribble). If he can keep shooting well and help us win another ring I would not mind seeing his number hanging up but if he doesn't show up like this past playoff games then ..Nope...

As far as defense I will say that Green one on one defense is not close to what Bowen was but Green help defense is pretty dang good when he is dialed in.

[Obstructed_View]

Actually watch when McGrady drives (which is when hand-checking would get called), and tell me Bruce isn't pushing him? And his attempts to get open when Bowen his literally grabbing his jersey?

Yeah, I watched it. I know what a hand check is. What's becoming clear is that you do not. They showed that first McGrady drive three times, and Bowen puts a hand on him after he's passed by. It's not a hand check. If a ref wanted to call it a push I suppose they could, but virtually every drive in the NBA to this day has someone making contact like that. Go pull up a random game highlight and watch it.

Bowen was the most scrutinized defender in the NBA, and he didn't get whistled for a lot of fouls. His fouls didn't go up after the hand checks were outright banned. Pop's defense emphasizes not fouling.

[Obstructed_View]

As far as defense I will say that Green one on one defense is not close to what Bowen was but Green help defense is pretty dang good when he is dialed in.

Hopefully consistency comes with age. He's scary good when he's on.

[Cloud786]

Damn Obstructed going in with no lube tbh

[Obstructed_View]

The point of the vid wasn't "OMG look at Bruce get owned", since that's lame. Rather it was for people like you who think Bowen didn't play with his hands to see to that that's false and for people like CWS who think Bowen didn't get caught up on screens when he had to fight over them that that wasn't the case either. Highlights can be deceiving in many ways. But they can debunk absolute statements like yours that Bowen did hand-check (and get away with it) because there was a rules change. He was hand-checking on McGrady's makes. Who knows what he was doing on Tracy's misses?

You've gone from saying that he couldn't play in today's NBA, to saying that he was a terrible shooter from the spots where he never shot, to ... he was actually fouling all along and was getting away with it?

Bowen didn't hand check in the video. Bowen didn't get away with hand checking. There was a rules change to stop hand checking the year before the video, and he still wasn't whistled for it. Is there an echo in here?

You know what Bowen wasn't doing on Tracy's misses? Fouling. At some point if a guy goes his whole career and almost never fouls out, you have to say that either the refs loved him or he just wasn't fouling.

I'm sure glad that the refs loved Bruce Bowen so much.

[z0sa]

You've gone from saying that he couldn't play in today's NBA, to saying that he was a terrible shooter from the spots where he never shot, to ... he was actually fouling all along and was getting away with it?

Bowen didn't hand check in the video. Bowen didn't get away with hand checking. There was a rules change to stop hand checking the year before the video, and he still wasn't whistled for it. Is there an echo in here?

You know what Bowen wasn't doing on Tracy's misses? Fouling. At some point if a guy goes his whole career and almost never fouls out, you have to say that either the refs loved him or he just wasn't fouling.

I'm sure glad that the refs loved Bruce Bowen so much.

great post, dude.

[BlackSilver]

[BlackSilver]

You've gone from saying that he couldn't play in today's NBA, to saying that he was a terrible shooter from the spots where he never shot, to ... he was actually fouling all along and was getting away with it?

Bowen didn't hand check in the video. Bowen didn't get away with hand checking. There was a rules change to stop hand checking the year before the video, and he still wasn't whistled for it. Is there an echo in here?

You know what Bowen wasn't doing on Tracy's misses? Fouling. At some point if a guy goes his whole career and almost never fouls out, you have to say that either the refs loved him or he just wasn't fouling.

I'm sure glad that the refs loved Bruce Bowen so much.

[Mikeanaro]

Bowie

[HarlemHeat37]

Every Bowen argument in this thread has been largely based on narrative, tbh..no evidence or even videos provided..

Bowen was an elite defender, no question about that..he benefited greatly from being permitted to handcheck, which was widely discussed and complained about among non-Spurs fans throughout the era..he also benefited greatly from the defensive era he played in, which was also the least popular era in the history of the league (partly due to style of play)..nevertheless, I have no argument against him being an elite defender and one of the best of his era..

However, the question here isn't defense vs. defense..Bowen was an elite defender that was average to poor in every other facet of basketball, while Green is a good defender and good offensive player that shows flashes of being better than that on both ends, too..

Bowen could only shoot from 2 spots on the floor, which would kill him in today's game where defenses have made eliminating corner 3s a priority..not to mention that he would have been playing without a star to draw attention on the 2014 and 2015 Spurs..

Let's look at the playoff runs of Bowen in 2003/2005/2007 vs. Green in 2013/2014:

BPM- 2.1(4th on the team among rotation guys), 1.1(6th), 3(4th) vs. 5.8(t-1st), 7.3(1st)

VORP- 0.8(4th), 0.6(4th), 0.9(3rd) vs. 1.3(2nd), 1.2(t-3rd)

RAPM(season + playoffs)- 1.5(4th), 1.3(3rd), -0.1(5th) vs. 3.4(3rd), 2.1(4th)

If we are going to include purely individual box score metrics, it's a landslide:

PER- 8.9, 5.4, 8.5 vs. 15.2, 16.5
TS%- 50.8, 48.7, 53.4 vs. 60.5, 65(on higher usage rate and shot attempts, too)


Bowen is one of my favorites of all-time(and I defended him here until the end while half the forum preferred that piece of trash Michael Finley), but all the on/off numbers are mostly accurate in regards to his performance..he was an elite defender, but mostly a gimmick player, tbh..

He certainly made an impact with his defense and he was always a net positive player, but his offense was virtually a non-factor, even with his nice 3-point percentage, as shown by the numbers and as displayed in the low correlation between his scoring outputs and efficiency Vs. Spurs W/L record..

There's no evidence to really argue otherwise, too..he was a gimmick player that would have had to learn new tricks to play today, particularly learning to shoot from anywhere other than 2 locations..maybe he would have, but that doesn't really factor into this discussion where we are comparing the finished products..

Green has him beat pretty easily in both advanced on/off metrics and individual advanced metrics, as well as individual peak performance..you can argue for Bowen's longevity and you can make the argument that he was more important due to the minutes he played and the way he was utilised specifically for those Spurs squads, but none of his performances compare to Green in neither 2013 or 2014, even including Bruce's nice 2003 run..

[apalisoc_9]

"killer instinct"
"tenaciousness"
"Hard nosed"
"tough"

[HarlemHeat37]

I'm not sure if a player like Bowen could ever work again, tbh..even looking through modern NBA history, the only players I found with similar statistical metrics that managed to produce a notable impact in a substanial amount of minutes are James Posey, early Thabo and past-prime Shane Battier(his Miami days)



Sefolosha, for example, has already been exposed in recent years for his offensive struggles, despite being under 30 years old, too..

[timtonymanu]

"killer instinct"
"tenaciousness"
"Hard nosed"
"tough"

[DPG21920]

Tony Allen ^

[Robz4000]

Damn Obstructed going in with no lube tbh

Chinook destroyed every one of OV's arguments with stats and numbers while OV argued back with antiquated concepts

[spurraider21]

Chinook destroyed every one of OV's arguments with stats and numbers while OV argued back with antiquated concepts

sup mid

[kobyz]

How the is Bruce not on the spurs coaching stuff? And some girl like Becky is??? With Bruce as assistance coach the team would have won at least 3 out of the 4 latest les, Bruce would have hinder Pop's softness and naiveness...

[Chinook]

You've gone from saying that he couldn't play in today's NBA, to saying that he was a terrible shooter from the spots where he never shot, to ... he was actually fouling all along and was getting away with it?

Again, you're conflating offense and defense. Bowen would be a borderline liability in today's league because team's are much better at defending the corner three. That's not because of the hand-checking rule. So stop acting like I'm backtracking when I'm talking about two different things entirely.

Bowen didn't hand check in the video.

I don't think you know what hand-checking is if you don't think he was doing it. When a player is driving past a defender, and the defender is either pushing him wide with his arms or using his arms to hold the offensive player back that IS hand-checking. Look up the definition.

There was a rules change to stop hand checking the year before the video, and he still wasn't whistled for it.

Yes. Just like players still get free throws for jumping into guys even though the NBA nominally banned that way of drawing fouls. The league doesn't instantly change just because the rules change on the books.

You know what Bowen wasn't doing on Tracy's misses? Fouling. At some point if a guy goes his whole career and almost never fouls out, you have to say that either the refs loved him or he just wasn't fouling.

I don't know what Bowen was doing on Tracy's misses, and neither do you apparently.

I'm sure glad that the refs loved Bruce Bowen so much.

Bowen did seem to get a lot of love from refs. A lot of players who are seen as elite defenders get more leeway than other guys. CWS was just talking about that.

[Chinook]

I think there was a discussion about what defines a stretch 4, and someone idiotically stated that Lamarcus wasn't one, which is almost as stupid as your refusal to give Bowen any credit for pioneering the 3 and D role.. At some point, when people are rejecting a simple definition, like a 3 and D or a stretch 4, you simply have to go to a source to try to nail it down. Since there's not really a dictionary at a library that contains recent basketball terms, I tried to give you a chance to go look at the discussions about 3 and D players that all show the genesis of the role being Bruce Bowen and Shane Battier. Your response was to tell me about his nickname. Either you're just really really ing stupid or you're just too stubborn to accept how wrong you are on this discussion, no matter how much evidence is produced to confirm it.

The point is, what you're saying isn't evidence. It's not about being stubborn; it's about knowing what's valid to respond to.

No, I'm not. Bowen's impact as both a defender and three point shooter are relevant to this discussion. He wasn't a one-way player. His three point shooting was a key. He was elite at both roles, which is why he's a pioneer.

Yes, you are totally concatenating the two. The league has evolved to where players need to shoot more from other places along the arc. The league as also evolved to where it's not conducive to play "physical" defense anymore. But those were not the same change. It's not that they aren't both relevant to the discussion, it's that we're talking about them in different contexts. Bowen's shooting would no longer be very helpful in today's league. He'd probably be fine defensively. However, the difference in defensive culture meant his job was easier, so the fact that he has equal numbers to Green is not a good thing for your argument.

You said that the rules allowed Bowen to dominate

Yeah, no I didn't. I said his job was easier back then, and the "standard" he set isn't achievable today because of the different defensive culture. They have to play with their hands tied behind their back essentially. So Green does as good or almost as good of a job in a harder environment. I think Bowen would have been fine in today's age defensively.

Your continued fabrications are becoming tiring. He was not atrocious from anywhere. at your spacing argument, which is completely incorrect. Pop's offense relies most strongly on the corner three. I'd tell you to Google it, but you'll get annoyed at someone showing you evidence

He shot 30 ing percent from the non-corner three. That is atrocious. I don't know what else to tell you. And Pop does rely on the corner three, because it's still the easiest shot three to make. And Green shot better from the left corner last season than Bowen has ever shot. But the wing three is the longest three, so it draw the defender out the most. That is why it's better for spacing. More importantly, the fact that Danny's man has to worry about him moving anywhere along the arc does more to keep him home than Bowen ever did.

In 2006, Bowen took 245 three pointers, and 23 of them were NOT from the corners. The Spurs offense relied heavily on his shots from that spot, which is why he took the overwhelming majority of them from that spot. Saying he was atrocious from another position where he shot less than ten percent of his threes is not a valid basis to say that he wasn't a good player. I've got three championship trophies to refute it. Are you calculating attempts in the Green numbers you're mysteriously throwing out there?

This is really bad. First, Bowen shot 30 percent there for his whole Spurs career, so there's a decent sample size. Secondly the idea of "ring > 3pt%" is the worse take you've had. And again, didn't say Bowen WASN'T a good player. I did say that he was much worse than Green offensively, because Danny is historically good at what he does. To say Bowen <<< Green on offense is only insulting to a few people who don't want to give Danny his props.

I never said that Bruce stopped hand checking. I said that he never hand checked in the first place. Bowen always played defense with his feet. It's part of Pop's defensive philosophy, and I submitted Bowen's personal foul numbers before and after to back it up. You posted a video where he doesn't hand check. You posted a video where McGrady has the same number of shot attempts as points in a game they lost because you, for all your whining about it, apparently Googled "Bowen gets schooled". You said that he played under a different set of rules, which is incorrect, since he won two of his three les after the rules were changed. Have your mom drive you to the library so you can look up, "debunked."

God, you got juvenile at this point. Do you really think Bowen didn't hand-check when it was legal? This is a guy who literally kicked someone in the face, who gets tons of credit from fans for knowing how to play just-legal defense. And you think he wasn't hand-checking? And you can't even see in the vid I posted that he was hand-checking? It's pathetic denial by you. As far as the vid goes, I actually searched "Bowen defense", but there aren't any vids of him having extended work on anyone but maybe Kobe. I was looking for good highlights of his so that I could show his handchecking. But defenders usually only get vids when they look bad, like O-linemen in football.

Oh, I'm sorry. You said that Bowen had one of the best defenders in his prime backing him up. Are you saying that the defensive player of the year is not one of the best defenders in the league, or are you going to try to argue that Kawhi is not yet in his prime? I think Danny Green is an excellent defender, regardless of who he's playing alongside. It's sad that your argument is so weak that you try to make up about Bowen's abilities.

I'm trying to argue that Prime Tim is way better than Kawhi is or will ever be. Tim may have been the GOAT defensive player in his prime. Also, Leonard doesn't back Green up at all. He plays next to him. If Danny gets beat, Kawhi isn't running over to protect the rim. It was just a bad comparison on your part.

If you think that Bowen wasn't a vital cog in those le teams, I have news for you: You're alone in that. I'd make the retired number argument as well, but I'm sure you've got a ridiculous hypothetical to attach to it.

Again, didn't say that Bowen wasn't critical to those teams. But being relatively good isn't the same thing as being absolutely good, which is something you can't seem to grasp. Bowen was good, and he played an essential role on those teams. He deserves his rings. But that doesn't make him better than Green. Those Spurs teams were completely different in what role-players had to do. Bruce was never going to have to carry the Spurs offensively for stretches of games like Danny had to.

I'm sure everyone here is going to be fascinated by your extensive list of my false arguments. The NBA defensive culture has changed because every team wants a Bruce Bowen to play solid defense and keep the other team's best player from scoring efficiently. The NBA offensive culture has changed because every team wants a Bruce Bowen to shoot 40 percent from the corners. None of that has anything to do with a rule change, because Bowen did most of his damage in the league after the rule change you just won't shut up about.

You should stop concatenating what I'm saying. It's clear you don't understand it. Bruce would be a one-way player in today's league, because of the evolved culture. That's not about the rules change. And I think you're behind on the times anyway if you think Bruce is still the gold-standard for 3/D players. Are any of the permier defenders just corner shooters nowadays? I know there are some fringe defensive prospects like Roberson and Huestis with OKC who are in that discussion, but their lack of versatility is why no one seems to care about them.

[Obstructed_View]

Again, you're conflating offense and defense. Bowen would be a borderline liability in today's league because team's are much better at defending the corner three. That's not because of the hand-checking rule. So stop acting like I'm backtracking when I'm talking about two different things entirely.

Well then let's separate them, because you've made points about both his shooting and his defense, and each is equally weak. On defense, you said that he hand checks, and his defense was predicated on the rules allowing him to be able to hand check, which is wrong because you clearly didn't know the year that the rule was changed. The video you posted, sorry to say yet again, does not have Bowen hand checking in it. You prove in the rest of the post below that you don't know what a hand check is. You tried to use an old Jordan argument to discredit him and you can't admit that you ed up, and then you doubled down by saying that he's actually violating the rules but the refs are just ignoring it and letting him get away with it. Again, this is a discussion comparing two really good players. I made the case that Bowen's contributions to the team were greater, and Green's upside is higher. You've tried to make the case that Bowen's not a good shooter or a good defender.

As far as offense, it's odd that you post Green's percentage from the corners as evidence of his shooting ability, but won't accept Bowen's percentage from the corners as evidence. If defenses are better, you won't say that it's because of Bowen's offensive impact, and you like to harp on Bowen's lower percentage from the places he shot less than 15 percent of his threes to refute his dominance as a corner threat.

I don't think you know what hand-checking is if you don't think he was doing it. When a player is driving past a defender, and the defender is either pushing him wide with his arms or using his arms to hold the offensive player back that IS hand-checking. Look up the definition.

I know the definition, which is why I'm sure he's not doing it in the video. I'm pretty sure I've posted it in this thread for you. Your definition is pretty close to correct. If you put your hand on them and keep it on them, or if you impede his progress, it's a hand check. Bowen is not impeding progress on McGrady when he's facing up. He just isn't. When a player has his back to you can put a hand with a bent elbow or a forearm against him. When he faces up, no contact that slows down his momentum is allowed. Bowen pushed McGrady after he was past as he was going for that layup. That's not a hand check, it was a push. And if the official wanted to call that he could have. He didn't. The only place you have to run is the "refs love him" argument, which is both ludicrous and par for the course from you.

Pop's "defend with your feet" defensive philosophy wasn't an accident. Bowen knew the definition of hand checking, because there were hand checking rules in place before he even came into the league. It wasn't allowed at all from the baseline to the three point line, so any defender picking up a dribbler at full or half court had to follow the rules. In 2004-2005 they banned it on all spots on the court, but it didn't change his defensive style because Bowen was assigned to defend a ton of scorers who got the ball in isolation outside the three point line.

Yes. Just like players still get free throws for jumping into guys even though the NBA nominally banned that way of drawing fouls. The league doesn't instantly change just because the rules change on the books.

Even if that were true, that would be fine if Bowen's career ended in 2005, but Bowen won a le with the Spurs in 2007. Check his stats. His fouls per 36 went up like 0.2 during that time. You're trying to claim that Bowen got away with rules infractions because the refs didn't have time to adjust when Bowen's numbers were virtually the same FOUR YEARS into the rule change.

I don't know what Bowen was doing on Tracy's misses, and neither do you apparently.

The box score says he wasn't sending McGrady to the foul line. You won't accept the outcome, you won't accept McGrady's poor shooting percentage, you won't accept that the Spurs held the Rockets to ten points in the last ten minutes of the game, you won't accept that Bowen only had two fouls. I guess you really have no refuge to run to when faced with the stats proving that Bowen didn't suddenly become a fouler when the rules changed.

Bowen did seem to get a lot of love from refs. A lot of players who are seen as elite defenders get more leeway than other guys. CWS was just talking about that.

I'm having trouble believing that you don't see that you're playing both sides against the middle in every argument, since if he were hand checking, he wouldn't be seen as an elite defender by the refs.

I recall CWS saying that Bowen wasn't offensively limited and said that every team in the league would love a defender of Bowen's caliber on their team, points you've argued with throughout, even saying that Kobe giving Bowen credit as the best defender he ever faced was meaningless. I missed the part where CWS said that the only reason Bowen was successful is because the refs gave him leeway to hand check.

[Spurtacular]

I haven't voted. If I do, I'm sure it'll be Green. But I'll say this: Bowen doesn't allow CP3 to make that kind of drive at the end of Game 7.