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Sum it up
Bowen- better defense, more consistent, more toughness
Green- better offense, good defense, somewhat inconsistent
How you put that together is a matter of opinion. You don't have to bash one player to make a case for the other.
Green
Bowen
Sum it up
Bowen- better defense, more consistent, more toughness
Green- better offense, good defense, somewhat inconsistent
How you put that together is a matter of opinion. You don't have to bash one player to make a case for the other.
Green also is not that much better on offense like people try to make him to be, consider he tends to get into the biggest shooting slumps and that Bowen had much better floater after a close out...
I forgot the article because its been so long, but there was one that showed all the player Bowen guarded over the years and how every single one except Ray Allen all had noticeably worse stats with Bowen guarding them as opposed to the their avg stats against other players. For Kobe, Kobe scored like 4 points less than is career avg and took 3 more FG per game. His FG% dropped to 41% to 42% pg as oppose to his career avg at the time of 47-48%. Even he said Bowen was the toughest defender he faced. While others people about Bowen, Kobe said Bruce just made you work harder to get your points and had mad respect for him as a defender.
Just to be fair, Green mostly guards spot up shooters. Look at Harden on Green.
http://www.hoopsstats.com/basketball.../15/10/158/398
Harden for the most part has killed Green. Green is great at locking down spot up shooters like Allen, Thompson, etc. But Green is hardly left alone on an island against a team's best offensive player like Bruce was almost every night. When Green is, as in the case of Harden, is left alone against a guy that can dribble and is a player maker, he gets owned QUITE A BIT.
Green has Kawhi to thank for being better defensively as Kawhi is the guy that usually takes the player's best offensive wing player out of the game.
Convenient that you ignore that 5 year stretch coincided with Duncan's prime. And Spurs floundering in the playoffs in the late 2000s had less to do with Bowen and more to do with Duncan exiting his prime.
And like others habe said here, Bowen also didnt own Dirk, Lebron, Nash contrary to popular nostalgic memory/opinion. Kawhi didnt even have to guard durant a whole lot last year, it was Green who was primarily against him. Bruce also has to thank Prime Tim for making his life better by defending the paint when his man got past him.
Paul was face raping Bruce in the 2008 playoffs. Ended up in a 3-1 deficit with Bruce guarding CP3. We were only able to turn that series around after Pop switched Bowen onto someone he could actually defend(Peja)
I'm beyond shocked that this is a debate.
Bowen used to take opposing players out of a series altogether.
Bowen >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Green
And this is coming from someone who loves the out of Green. Bowen was an absolute legend and one of the greatest perimeter defenders in history.
But why did the Spurs start gaining PO success again once they got a player of Bowen's caliber defensively in Kawhi. Look at Duncan's defensive rating, they were still very good (top 5 league wide) during that playoff drought. But Duncan guards the post, not the WING.
What players did bruce take out for a whole series?
Watch the video I posted of the Spurs defending Lebron in 2007, and watch Duncan in recent years. You should be able to see why the Spurs couldn't defend on the perimeter once Duncan got old.
Let me see, Lebron, Bowen 37, Lebron 23 when they met in the finals.
Dirk. Let me see. 6'11 and a huge wingspan that he could easily shoot over Bowen. Yeah, there is a reason why someone line Splitter had way more success.
Nash. Don't get me started. Is Bowen to blame that Amare would score like 40 ppg off the pnr. Nash was too quick for Bowen, but he was the best on the team off slowing him down despite it. No one of the Spurs team could stop Nash. Even Kawhi, who I think is a better defender than Bruce ever was (by a slight margin) couldn't have stopped Nash at the time.
But players like Kobe, Carter, Van Horn, Butler, Peja, Marion, Pierce, etc all had way worse stats with Bruce guarding them and he did so mostly one-on-one.
I don't think anyone has too big of a problem saying Bowen was good guarding SGs and SFs. The issue is that people try to credit him with guarding PGs and PFs, which he simply wasn't even passable at. That shouldn't be held against him, but it's also not a credit to him.
I have seen it. But why are they capable now. Its mostly because of Kawhi. The two players that have the most impact on the Spurs team defensive rating over the past two years were, Kawhi and Splitter. Not even Duncan.
I agree Duncan was a defensive beast in his prime. But what allowed him to dominate the paint was that Bowen made is so damn hard for players to get there.
Watch Green and Bowen highlights playing the PNR. Green 4 outta 5 times is trailing the play. Bowen is like Kawhi where he is still right along side his defender and contests the shot.
Green is a very good defender. But he is not on Kawhi's or Bowen's level.
Yep, people just tend to overrate the past. Nostalgia is a of a drug
They are better now because both Green and Leonard are BETTER than Bowen was. They don't just have to be at his level nowadays with the rule changes and older core. They have to do more than Bowen ever did.
Because Bowen was totally impeding Lebron's progress in that vid.I agree Duncan was a defensive beast in his prime. But what allowed him to dominate the paint was that Bowen made is so damn hard for players to get there.
Do you have any highlights you want to show?Watch Green and Bowen highlights playing the PNR. Green 4 outta 5 times is trailing the play. Bowen is like Kawhi where he is still right along side his defender and contests the shot.
Every part of this is wrong.
1) Spurs tied the series 2-2
2a) Peja was dominating Manu Ginobili off the ball which is the only reason why the switch occurred
2b) Bowen switching from CP3 and TP switching to CP3 and dueling him down for a mostly even matchup changed the dynamic of the series. IOW, Bruce shutting Peja down in no small part contributed to allowing the Spurs to come back from down 0-2 after being blown the out twice in a row.
37 yo Bowen against Lebron and yet Lebron, shot 35% for the series. Wow, one play and he completely owned Bowen. Lebron went from averaging 27 ppg in the previous series to only 22 ppg against Bowen. He avg liked 6 TURNOVERS A GAME AS WELL, and only avg 2.6 TO a games in the previous series.
Seriously, do you think Green can do that. NOOOOOOOOOOO.
Look at Green. And I can post NUMEROUS videos of him being completely outta of the play once he gets picked. Kawhi at least fights through it and is on his guy, much like Bowen use to do.
Every part except Bowen getting 'face-raped' by CP3, apparently. You didn't refute that. Not that I blame old Bruce for not being able to check young Paul, mind you. But he sure wasn't stopping him.
Last edited by Chinook; 07-22-2015 at 12:19 PM.
And you say that Green and Kawhi make the Spurs better defensively. What people fail to see is that Manu defensive rating in his prime was better than Green's. Manu is a much under rated defender in this prime. This Spurs team hasn't come close to be as defensively dominated as the mid 00's Spurs were. But they are much better offensively, so it balances itself out.
Just admit you didn't watch that video. It's really easy to see how Lebron was defended if you do. So much help, it was insane. So much size toss at him from Duncan and Oberto. So many guards digging at the ball. The other Cavs may as well have not been there. It was like D-Rob against the Rockets.
Green was the on-ball defender on a Harden pick-and-roll exactly once in that video, and Jones was sliding to keep him from getting back in the play. Leonard was the defender for most of that game (which pissed me off, I recall, because Green was on Parsons, and both Danny and Kawhi struggled defensively), and he was trailing on nearly every play in that video.Look at Green. And I can post NUMEROUS videos of him being completely outta of the play once he gets picked. Kawhi at least fights through it and is on his guy, much like Bowen use to do.
Was this really the best piece of evidence you could find to support your assertion?
Well first, you're using DRtg, which has been demonstrated time and again as being a nearly worthless stat for perimeter players.
Second, saying that the Spurs had another elite defender in Bowen's time hardly gives him an advantage in this debate. All that "Bowen had to carry the defense" rhetoric rings hollow if we agree Ginobili was great as well.
There is no reason to refute it, it is irrelevant. Pop didnt make the switch because Bowen couldnt guard CP3. He made the switch to shut Peja down and boy did Bruce do that..
Manu wasn't great but he was very good much like Green. And yes, I watched the Cavs series. Spurs had a game plan for Lebron, but it all started with Bowen forcing him off the spots he was most comfortable, which led to 35% shooting and 6 TO's a game.
And watch the video I post Previously of harden. I believe 3x times Green trailed the play after the PNR and didn't even contest the shot. The one time Green did catch up is because Harden stopped and stuttered stepped and still made the shot.
We can go on all day with this debate. But I was around during the Bowen era and Green IS NOT a better defender than Bowen was, plain and simple. Bowen, Cooper and Pippen are the best 3 perimeter defenders of all time.
I like Green, and he is a very good defender, but he is not in the all time great realm.
If both players were on the same team would you seriously put Green on the no.1 option?
We are talking about the greatest perimeter defender of his era. Bruce is simply on another level and no one made superstars work harder then Bowen did. He would chase players all over the floor denying the pass that when they finally did make the catch were often well out of there comfort zone and had spent much more energy then usual. He totally shut down players like Marion and Peja which were crucial to playoff series wins whilst limiting the true superstars ( Kobe, Dirk etc) by at a minimum holding them to the teams goal of 1pt per shot attempt. He had times where cracked the psyche of players and took out of the game . All defensive team every year etc etc
Sure Green is the better shooter of the two but neither player is/was starting for the Spurs for their offensive talent.
Neither player can create their own shot and rely on teammates to assist all of there attempts. Both guys had clutch shooting playoff runs....its not a huge difference when you consider Green is playing in a much more developed offensive system that allows for more points and cleaner looks . Although id agree Green is a better offensive player simply because he can shoot threes from more spots on the floor whilst Bruce was strictly in the corners as a 5th option who spaced the court.
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