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Now youre just being obtuse.
Green
Bowen
It's not irrelevant. If Bowen couldn't guard Paul, he couldn't. It doesn't matter why Pop switched them.
Now youre just being obtuse.
“Bruce Bowen was the premier perimeter defender in the NBA for close to a decade,” said Spurs Head Coach Gregg Popovich. “His success is proof that hard work and determination do, in fact, pay off. Statistics are meaningless when talking about his importance to this franchise. The simple fact is the Spurs don't win NBA Championships in 2003, 2005 and 2007 without Bruce Bowen.”
http://www.nba.com/spurs/news/120123...e_bowen_jersey
2008 was CP3's best year by a good margin, no one was able to guard him that season.
I would add both shared a humble working guy at ude.
What a bs, disrespectful thread, comparing a spurs legend to someone who still need to grow a pair...
No I don't. Green just doesn't have Bowen's role defensively. That's not a knock on Danny, it's just the reality that we defend in a different way than we did back then. In this defense, Green does a remarkable job, but he has many years ahead of him. That's why I said the comparison will probably be more "fair" later down the road.
He was doing exactly the job Pop wanted him to do. Much like Kawhi was told to hold back on James in 2013 and that's exactly what he did. If you're not going to do what the coach tells you to do, you go think about it on the bench, especially for players that can't bring much at all on the other end.
Trying to advance that the Spurs couldn't "upgrade" from Bowen for financial reasons after he played 8 consecutive seasons with the team is asinine. A plethora of players came and went during that period and everybody that matters got a pay rise, including Bowen. He was what Pop wanted for that team, because the combo of him and Tim worked. Pop valued it so much, he has his jersey in the rafters. Heck, Pop himself has downplayed Bowen's offense, but at the same time said he played not good defense, but great defense, and was trying to get Kawhi to that defensive level.
It's entirely possible that Danny is the better one on one defender in a vacuum, but does that really matters? At this level what matters is executing the gameplan, and Bruce did that, and that's why he played as much as he did with us back then, and he was an integral part of that success.
That doesn't mean that Danny doesn't do it too, but it's well known that one of his major flaws early on was his focus and attention to detail, and that's why Pop was hard on him. And I think a big reason for that is that Pop was used to a guy like Bruce, who he told "do X" and Bruce would do exactly that. Now, Danny seems to have grown out of it, and hopefully what that means is we're going to get an improved Danny Green, which hopefully translates to success and when it's all said and done, might mean he's remembered as the better player between him and Bruce.
I just think this is another instance, like with Tiago/Diaw, where your valuation of talent doesn't really align with how Pop or the Spurs value talent.
Last edited by ElNono; 07-22-2015 at 01:56 PM. Reason: typo
When the Spurs needed a stop it was Bruce who stepped up. Ray Allen, Paul Pierce, Chris Paul, Vince Carter, Steve Nash, Chauncey Billups, etc.. Bowen had Nash yelling at refs all game long and didn't take from anyone.
Nice vids down memory lane:
Retrospective:
Chris Paul:
Last edited by tmtcsc; 07-22-2015 at 01:24 PM.
you cant beat old memories
But but NASFs know better
Bowen may have had a better career than Danny at this point, but there's no reason to assume Danny has to play another three years with the Spurs to be in the conversation for better player. C'mon Nono.
Unless Pop told Bowen, "Get beat," I doubt what we saw was Bowen just following orders. Duncan was able to swallow guys whole back then on the perimeter. If anything, all this shows is that Bruce had a much easier job defensively.He was doing exactly the job Pop wanted him to do. Much like Kawhi was told to hold back on James in 2013 and that's exactly what he did. If you're not going to do what the coach tells you to do, you go think about it on the bench, especially for players that can't bring much at all on the other end.
What does that even prove? Bowen was so awesome that he got like $4 Million a year at his peak. And I don't doubt that Bruce could have gotten more money than that somewhere else, but the fact that he had to take less to stay with the Spurs underscores that the Spurs didn't have the money to spend on an upgrade at that spot. Tim was still a $20 Million player back them, and Parker's deal way better large by the end of it.Trying to advance that the Spurs couldn't "upgrade" from Bowen for financial reasons after he played 8 consecutive seasons with the team is asinine. A plethora of players came and went during that period and everybody that matters got a pay rise, including Bowen. He was what Pop wanted for that team, because the combo of him and Tim worked. Pop valued it so much, he has his jersey in the rafters. Heck, Pop himself has downplayed Bowen's offense, but at the same time said he played not good defense, but great defense, and was trying to get Kawhi to that defensive level.
Yes. That's what the majority of this thread is about.It's entirely possible that Danny is the better one on one defender in a vacuum, but does that really matters? At this level what matters is executing the gameplan, and Bruce did that, and that's why he played as much as he did with us back then, and he was an integral part of that success.
I don't disagree with that. But a coach being frustrated doesn't mean that player is worse.That doesn't mean that Danny doesn't do it too, but it's well known that one of his major flaws early on was his focus and attention to detail, and that's why Pop was hard on him. And I think a big reason for that is that Pop was used to a guy like Bruce, who he told "do X" and Bruce would do exactly that. Now, Danny seems to have grown out of it, and hopefully what that means is we're going to get an improved Danny Green, which hopefully translates to success and when it's all said and done, might mean he's remembered as the better player between him and Bruce.
Which is why when Pop scratches his leg, I don't feel it. People should make their own judgement. Trying to draw credibility for your argument by citing credible people who support it is a logical fallacy.I just think this is another instance, like with Tiago/Diaw, where your valuation of talent doesn't really align with how Pop or the Spurs value talent.
The poster I replied to insisted that Bowen could stop Paul. Facts tell us otherwise. Paul dominated that matchup and put up monster numbers against Bruce.
You were still wrong, because he did not guard CP3 for 4 games. He only guarded him 2 out of 7.
Which is irrelevant. The guy insisted Bowen would shut down Paul. Facts tell us otherwise. Nice job dodging the real issue here though(Bowen's ability to defend point guards as effectively as Green).
youre the one dodging the fact you used a wrong series score while doubling the sample size so it would fit your narrative. Your credibility's definitely questionable when you egregiously misrepresent one side of the equation for such purposes.
JR's point is that Bowen never showed he was a better match-up against CP3 than Green. He wasn't the one with the burden of proof, so shrinking the sample size is irrelevant. In other words, you've said nothing to back up the assertion that Bowen could check Paul, and picking those holes in his rebuttal doesn't make the original contention any stronger.
I could understand if some feel Green's offense outweighs Bowen's defense. But trying to rewrite history or maintain that Bowen wasn't an elite defender is ridiculous. In 2008 Bowen was 38 years old. Discussions like this don't have to turn in to bashing Spurs greats. This board is finally worth reading again so let's try to keep the quality oc posting up.
Bowen was more consistent on the 3 but he also was limited to the corners mostly. He didn't attempt as much from the top as DG. He was also better at taking it to the rim that DG. I wouldn't call him a finisher but he could make a layup.
Also a better defender IMO.
Don't be that guy, raider.
You were just getting awfully defensive. Somebody says Nash > Paul and you threw a small fit.
fwiw i agree that bruce was pretty bad at defending PG's and PF's. but in fairness, he typically drew tougher assignments than Green does, since we didn't have a kawhi to lean on.
When I say, "Don't be that guy", I mean that guy who nitpicks at things like me using diction you didn't like.
I clearly don't mean absolutely everyone. I mean that folks thinks that Bowen had harder assignments. Prime KD and Lebron are the two best offensive players (or at least the hardest to guard) in either era. And the rules and having a worst Tim makes it even more slanted. I really don't see how the compe ion was superior.
That's because you're looking at the individual, and not how that individual impacts the overall team success. Both are very subjective. Danny has been pretty successful with the Spurs, but Bowen has been integral to the most dominant stretch of the franchise. It's a high bar, and Danny might help the Spurs surpass it. The FO has certainly put the tools around to do so.
It takes discipline to do anything. Pop specifically did not want Lebron going to the free throw line, so Bowen specifically didn't foul on drives. If anything, a fan of Danny Green should know how hard it is not to instinctively throw a hand in there and foul. Was it an easier job? Maybe. Was it what the coach wanted and what gave the Spurs a measurable defensive edge in that series, absolutely.
Bruce took less only one year (before getting old), and he was rewarded with the $4m extension you mention afterwards. It's no different than what Danny did this summer. I think it speaks way more about the character than anything else.
What's silly is to advance that the Spurs didn't "upgrade" from Bowen for any kind of financial reasons. The Spurs had a ton of chances to do this alleged "upgrade", including the year he was handed that $4m extension, and didn't do so, which goes to show they were plenty happy with what Bowen brought to the table.
No it's not. There's help defense, there's rotations, there's execution... there's a ton of stuff that go way beyond "one on one" defense that translate into team success.
I didn't cite support for my opinion. I merely stated it. You can disagree with it, that's fine.
Come on, guys like Kobe, Dirk, T-Mac, Ray Allen, all in their primes, were pretty tough to cover... Lebron is probably superior physically, but I'm not sure I would put KD above some of those guys in their prime.
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