Jimmer Fredette to the Spurs (Update: Mostly Non-Guaranteed Training Camp Deal)

[ceperez]

What have I learned in this thread?

Late first rounders must play a major role in a championship or they are career busts.

lol

When the Spurs don't win the championship, most Spurs fans consider that a failure.

So by the same token, if a Spur player does not contribute to winning the championship, then that player is a failure (in a relative sense).

Now you can may have lower standards. You may be like one of those guys who gives away trophies for every kid that participates.

I'm not, don't contribute to a championship, then a bust as a Spurs player, IMHO.

[dweaver99027]

George Gervin was a bust? 89-97 DRob was a bust?

[snickles]

sorry ceperez, but i have to speak up. i was pretty content to let you have your opinion and all. for the most part, you did attempt to argue your points, although most here think the logic is flawed. but now your reasoning is becoming asinine.


seriously, you are saying the spurs should move assets to trade up...as little as one spot in one example....to pick up a player in the draft range that is routinely considered a crap shoot? many of the players you listed that we "missed out" on were never projected to be anything special. revisionist history at its finest.


not to mention the fact that the spurs often drafted with the intention of stashing players overseas to maintain their limited cap flexibility and stay out of the luxary tax.

EVERY team can go back 3,4,5 years after every draft and find players they miss. the opportunity cost of drafting player A over player B does not make player A a bust. the more i think about these posts, the more i'm shaking my head. your definition of a bust is completely broken and honestly indefensible.

2013 - Trade up one spot and pick Gobert at #27 <--- absolute miss because the pick was the Nuggets who traded with Utah for a 2nd round pick. This could have been the mainstay center for the Spurs!

2012 Trade into the second round and pick Draymond Green at #35 <-- Spurs didn't have any higher picks to trade.

2011 Pick Jimmy Butler or Chandler Parsons at # 29 <-- Cojo a real bust by comparison

2010 Trade up 2 spots and pick Bledsoe at #18 <-- not likely with trading partner OKC. Although Quincy Poindexter and Hassan Whiteside were still on the board.

2009 Nothing realistic - (2nd Round) Isn't is strange that Spurs have Green and Mill all drafted later than Blair.

2008 DeAndre Jordan at #26, trade up 2 spots for Ibaka at #26 or stay with George Hill. <-- Batum at #25 was the main target here... fail on the front office for not trading up Note how Rockets traded pick to Portland.

2007 Splitter at #28 and Marc Gasol at #33 <--- yeah... oh well!

2006 Nothing realistic - <-- Spurs had no picks

2005 David Lee or Monta Ellis at #28 <--- was a draft and stash, but how could they miss on Ellis?

2004 Varejao at #28 <--- would have made sense for a draft and stash. Of course #42 Trevor Ariza was available!

[ceperez]

George Gervin was a bust? 89-97 DRob was a bust?

Pre-Duncan era... so different expectations.

[ChumpDumper]

When the Spurs don't win the championship, most Spurs fans consider that a failure.

So by the same token, if a Spur player does not contribute to winning the championship, then that player is a failure (in a relative sense).

Now you can may have lower standards. You may be like one of those guys who gives away trophies for every kid that participates.

I'm not, don't contribute to a championship, then a bust as a Spurs player, IMHO.

So every player Presti has chosen for OKC is a bust.

Presti is a bust.

[dweaver99027]

My point exactly. Spurs' and PATFO's success have created your unrealistic expectations regarding late firsts. You can keep getting better, but you never get to be infallible.

[Sean Cagney]

EVERY team can go back 3,4,5 years after every draft and find players they miss. the opportunity cost of drafting player A over player B does not make player A a bust. the more i think about these posts, the more i'm shaking my head. your definition of a bust is completely broken and honestly indefensible.

Yep, it's all a luck game when it comes to the draft. Those guys he mentions there got passed up by a ton of teams as well as the Spurs, nobody knew they would turn out to be that good.

[Cowboys_Wear_Spurs]

TBD! Too early to tell but, if he doesn't pick it up on the offensive end, he'll never see the light of day in the NBA.


Depends on your definition of bust. Cojo isn't a pg because he isn't a playmaker and he isn't a sg because he isn't a particularly good shooter. He'd be a decent player if basketball was played one on one unfortunately, it's a team sport and by all definitions, he doesn't fill a team requirement. He's a player without a position. Oh, he'll surely put up numbers in Toronto if he's given the opportunity but, he won't necessarily make the team better when he's on the court. The Spurs tried to make a pg out of CoJo for 4 years without luck. If Toronto tries to do the same, they'll find out firsthand what it feels like to piss away $30M.


So Greg Oden wasn't a bust? Was his career not derailed by injuries? FWIW, JA played in 80 of 82 games averaging nearly 29 MPG last year.



Ian was a bust but CoJo wasn't? He was the 28th pick overall and while he never met fans expectations in SA, he had a pretty decent season for Indiana last year. What kind of contributions were you expecting from him as the 28th pick in the draft? Is there such a thing as a bust in the late 1st and 2nd rounds? Some players work out, others don't.

Bust is defined about expectations. JA was actually more than expected before his injury. Oden was the 2nd coming of Bill Russell.

Ian contributed ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to the Spurs. Cojo actually has had some decent games as a starter and bench player. I would put him up their with Vaughn. Not a playmaker but he can manage an offense. And his jumpshot vastly improved last year, better than Vaughn's ever was. And his D is very comparable to Vaughn. So basically, he is everything you expected and probably more from a late 1st round pick.

And reason why guys like Manu and Parker don't fall into the Spurs laps is because teams weren't scouting European players like the Spurs were at the time. Now, that is why guys like Saric and Hezonja and such are drafted in the lottery nowadays.

[ChumpDumper]

ceperez wins the retroactive mock draft compe ion every year!

[ceperez]

sorry ceperez, but i have to speak up. i was pretty content to let you have your opinion and all. for the most part, you did attempt to argue your points, although most here think the logic is flawed. but now your reasoning is becoming asinine.


seriously, you are saying the spurs should move assets to trade up...as little as one spot in one example....to pick up a player in the draft range that is routinely considered a crap shoot? many of the players you listed that we "missed out" on were never projected to be anything special. revisionist history at its finest.


not to mention the fact that the spurs often drafted with the intention of stashing players overseas to maintain their limited cap flexibility and stay out of the luxary tax.

EVERY team can go back 3,4,5 years after every draft and find players they miss. the opportunity cost of drafting player A over player B does not make player A a bust. the more i think about these posts, the more i'm shaking my head. your definition of a bust is completely broken and honestly indefensible.

I'm going to call a spade a spade.

These players first round drafted players were busts:

Cory Joseph
James Anderson
Ian Mahinmi
Beno Udrih

All 4 were given rookie level salaries to deliver and absolutely could not do so.

Livo Jean Charles - Jury is still out, but looking very much like a bust. Spurs 1st round draft picks are expected to eventually sign with the team. LJC may not even make that cutoff!

That's for a period of 10 years, 2 hits (Splitter and Hill) everyone else, failures. Not very good batting averages based on the averages before 2004.

2003 NBA 1 28 Leandro Barbosa Associação Bauru (Brazil) <-- didn't own rights
2002 NBA 1 26 John Salmons University of Miami <-- didn't own rights
2001 NBA 1 28 Tony Parker Paris Basket Racing (France)
1998 NBA 1 24 Felipe Lopez St. John's University <-- didn't own rights
1997 NBA 1 1 Tim Duncan Wake Forest University

7 years, 2 1st round draft picks... both in the money.

Ask any Spurs fan, if you are a 1st round draft pick for the Spurs, then the expectations is that you make a real contribution otherwise you are a bust.

[ChumpDumper]

Since ceperez told me Presti is a complete bust as a GM, I'm fine with RC Buford.

[ceperez]

Since ceperez told me Presti is a complete bust as a GM, I'm fine with RC Buford.

I said he was an excellent draft picker. I didn't say he was as good a GM as RC.

[ChumpDumper]

I said he was an excellent draft picker. I didn't say he was as good a GM as RC.

You said he's a complete bust as a draft picker.

[ChumpDumper]

It is your binary system of GM/player/draft evaluation; if you would now like to back down from that contention, you are more than welcome to do so.

[snickles]

Ask any Spurs fan, if you are a 1st round draft pick for the Spurs, then the expectations is that you make a real contribution otherwise you are a bust.

fair enough. spurs fans, do you agree with this statement? i sure don't.

not going to bother rehashing with everyone else has said about how flawed this logic is. there's not much else i can add to what the masses have already replied. you guys have fun.

[ceperez]

It is your binary system of GM/player/draft evaluation; if you would now like to back down from that contention, you are more than welcome to do so.

I am implying that RC isn't as good a draft picker as Presti. Comprende?

[dweaver99027]

fair enough. spurs fans, do you agree with this statement? i sure don't. not going to bother rehashing with everyone else has said about how flawed this logic is. there's not much else i can add to what the masses have already replied. you guys have fun.

Pretty much. Well said.

[ChumpDumper]

I am implying that RC isn't as good a draft picker as Presti. Comprende?

But that can't be because Presti is by your definition a complete bust as a draft picker, even with multiple lottery picks. Comprende?

[ceperez]

But that can't be because Presti is by your definition a complete bust as a draft picker, even with multiple lottery picks. Comprende?

Presti did very well picking for the Thunder. Durant, Westbrook, Harden, Ibaka.....

Of course, OKC doesn't have the same standards and expectations of the Spurs... if that's what you mean.

My "bust" definition is in the context of a Spurs 1st round pick, if that isn't already obvious. The expectation of any Spurs 1st round draft pick to to contribute to winning a championship. Cojo, James Anderson, Mahinmi and Beno are all busts by this definition.

Definiton doesn't apply for coaches, or even players from other teams. Doesn't even apply for Spurs 2nd round picks.

[Hoops Czar]

Bust is defined about expectations. JA was actually more than expected before his injury. Oden was the 2nd coming of Bill Russell.

Exactly. So I wasn't sure why you said he wasn't a bust because his career was derailed by an injury. My expectations were nothing more than a solid contributor off the bench and that's basically the type of player he is in Philly though he's been bumped up to starter due to the lack of depth.

Ian contributed ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to the Spurs. Cojo actually has had some decent games as a starter and bench player. I would put him up their with Vaughn. Not a playmaker but he can manage an offense. And his jumpshot vastly improved last year, better than Vaughn's ever was. And his D is very comparable to Vaughn. So basically, he is everything you expected and probably more from a late 1st round pick.

I know this. Did he have higher expectations as the 28th pick in the draft than others did at the time or could he have been just a tad bit overrated from the start? Wasn't Ian Mahinmi hampered by injuries early in his career or am I thinking of somebody else?

[snickles]

I don't want to get into the whole presti vs RC thing. i don't really care either way in that argument. just a few facts i'd like to interject.\

having the 2nd pick in a 2 horse race, and letting someone else make the decision for you. had portland selected durant, would you devalue presti's drafting skills?

if you're definition of a bust was narrowed down to just lottery picks, i could concede you make a decent point. but getting a rotation player in the late 20s, a player who eventually gets poached by another team because you can't afford to pay a backup more, a player that plays for 8-10 years.....i can't think of any team who would be disappointed by that.

you're expectations of a 1st round pick are lubricious. late first round players often don't even get a 2nd contract. cojo, mahinmi and beno are all still in the league, and have been rotation players for most of their careers. anderson got derailed because of injury. i'll give you that one.

Presti did very well picking for the Thunder. Durant, Westbrook, Harden, Ibaka.....

Of course, OKC doesn't have the same standards and expectations of the Spurs... if that's what you mean.

My "bust" definition is in the context of a Spurs 1st round pick, if that isn't already obvious. The expectation of any Spurs 1st round draft pick to to contribute to winning a championship. Cojo, James Anderson, Mahinmi and Beno are all busts by this definition.

Definiton doesn't apply for coaches, or even players from other teams. Doesn't even apply for Spurs 2nd round picks.

[snickles]

double post

[tholdren]

Jimmer is a lot better than mcCallum

[ceperez]

Jimmer is a lot better than mcCallum

Back to the regular scheduled program on this thread.

So.... why do you think Jimmer is better than McCallum???

[Spurtacular]

2004 Varejao at #28 <--- would have made sense for a draft and stash. Of course #42 Trevor Ariza was available!

Meh.