Jimmer Fredette to the Spurs (Update: Mostly Non-Guaranteed Training Camp Deal)

[Chinook]

You really want to argue that a team that needs wing help drafting two 6'7" guys who have shots to be premium wings is not worth it?

The Spurs didn't have wing need at the time. They had plenty of twos going in an out. They lacked bigs. Manu and RJ were on big, long-term deals. They had just drafted Leonard and had drafted Anderson the year before (a year where he looked pretty good before his injury). In no way, shape or form did drafting Butler make sense over drafting a PG.

The Spurs were rolling with Neal as the backup one, and Parker wasn't exactly considered untouchable either (since he was marred in controversy and hadn't hit his true peak yet). A development PG to replace Hill made perfect sense. Obviously, Isaiah Thomas may have been a better pick, but dude was Mr. Irrelevant. No one knew he was going to be a decent player.

Had the Spurs drafted Butler, they would have cut Green. No Green, no run in 2012 or 2013, as Jimmy really wasn't that good coming out of college. He's really not that good now, but whatever. And even if Butler became the player he is now, the Spurs would have had no way to sign anyone in free agency.

It's just a really poor line of reasoning all around, unfortunately.

[Spurtacular]

The Spurs didn't have wing need at the time. They had plenty of twos going in an out. They lacked bigs. Manu and RJ were on big, long-term deals. They had just drafted Leonard and had drafted Anderson the year before (a year where he looked pretty good before his injury). In no way, shape or form did drafting Butler make sense over drafting a PG.

The Spurs were rolling with Neal as the backup one, and Parker wasn't exactly considered untouchable either (since he was marred in controversy and hadn't hit his true peak yet). A development PG to replace Hill made perfect sense. Obviously, Isaiah Thomas may have been a better pick, but dude was Mr. Irrelevant. No one knew he was going to be a decent player.

Had the Spurs drafted Butler, they would have cut Green. No Green, no run in 2012 or 2013, as Jimmy really wasn't that good coming out of college. He's really not that good now, but whatever. And even if Butler became the player he is now, the Spurs would have had no way to sign anyone in free agency.

It's just a really poor line of reasoning all around, unfortunately.

I greatly respect your basketball knowledge. But I think you're completely off about the Spurs not having a wing need. That maybe more than anything was at the heart of the so-called dark era.

And CoJo was only ever going to top out at a serviceable PG. I don't think the Spurs even saw him getting to a Speedy Claxton level, tbh. So, if that's the ceiling we're talking about, then come on. Just a poor pick; picking CoJo over Butler. They could have found something comparable to CoJo on the open market for cheap. There was no compelling need to draft a PG as you assert.

And btw, IT would not have been a better pick. He is probably the worst defender in the league. And his offensive impact is vastly over-rated. But throwing out IT does illustrate how bad the CoJo pick was. Even if the Spurs weren't sold on Butler, then they still should've traded down and got IT or Joseph as a late second rounder. The CoJo pick reminds me of watching the NFL drafts and you see a team draft a QB way sooner than anyone expects...Just poor drafting. I can't say it stronger, tbh.

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

ST is the only place where you can find people moan the FO hasn't picked 2 max level players from the same draft but just one. FFS

[Chinook]

I greatly respect your basketball knowledge. But I think you're completely off about the Spurs not having a wing need. That maybe more than anything was at the heart of the so-called dark era.

Yes, and they had used two first-rounders in a row on wings. Why you think they would have done so with a third while still having two wings making more than $10 Million a year makes no sense. It's a poor attempt a revisionist history, because it still would have turned out badly.

And CoJo was only ever going to top out at a serviceable PG. I don't think the Spurs even saw him getting to a Speedy Claxton level, tbh. So, if that's the ceiling we're talking about, then come on. Just a poor pick; picking CoJo over Butler. They could have found something comparable to CoJo on the open market for cheap. There was no compelling need to draft a PG as you assert.

They drafted Joseph to develop over years. He wasn't their backup PG in 2012, just like Butler wouldn't have been their starting two that year. Cory's developed really well, considering he just got a big contract and so will be in the league for a least eight years. It's really looking like only Bulter, Parsons, Thomas and maybe Cole can say that.

Again, just really poor all around. The Spurs are better off WITHOUT Butler, even in a vacuum. You'd really prefer Jimmy over Danny AND LMA? Because that's what you'd get even in your idealized scenario.

[ceperez]

Umm, easy for me to say based on hindsight; but "clouded" is a bit too strong.

In the 10-11 college basketball season, I watched probably a dozen or more SDSU games; so, I was very familiar with KL; and I believed he was a top five prospect and maybe the best prospect in the draft. And when the Spurs traded George Hill for him, I was immediately pleased (which is saying a lot based on how GH had performed). I only lamented that the deal couldn't be done without getting rid of Hill.

For some reason, I saw a good amount of UT basketball that season. I knew CoJo would likely be a serviceable PG in this league despite his not outstanding numbers in college. I knew from watching him that it was not a big upside pick though as well. Frankly, he shouldn't have been drafted below 40th at the earliest was my feeling as I generally recall.

I can't say that I was high on Butler. I had him in the 25-40 range based on limited views of him. Had the Spurs drafted him, I wouldn't have been over enthused. But I would have said, that draft pick makes sense.

In the case of CoJo, my immediate thought was well, the Spurs could have traded down and got him and a future first. It was a bad pick even then.

So, no, I'm not saying I knew about Butler. I'm not saying that 6'7" wings always pan out. We know first hand about that based on that kid from Tennessee that we drafted a few years back. But I'm saying that the CoJo pick was funadmentally flawed from the start.

Totally agree here. The Cojo pick was fundamentally flawed. Likely made out of laziness in the sense that they were successful in landing Leonard.

Who knows if they would have picked Butler, but given what everyone knew at that time, a Butler pick would have been better than a Cojo pick. Both then and in hindsight.

Further the success of the Spurs in developing their 1st round picks is more a consequence of a great development program than because of stellar draft selection. Spurs can pick players like Mahinmi that disappoint in development, but have developed enough skills to be serviceable in the league.

There are hundreds of players out there playing in Europe and Asia that have just as much athleticism and talent as NBA players. They can't stick with an NBA franchise because they never learned the skills for the talent / position they have. Spurs are really great in developing these skills within their program.

The encouraging new development is that Spurs seem to be able to translate that development program into their D-league program. For years the Toros kept coming up with duds, but it may be time that they are finally cranking out serviceable players like Jamychal Green and Jonathon Simmons.

[ChumpDumper]

You people are idiots.

[GSH]

You people are idiots.

THAT'S what I'm talking about. I don't have to wade through pages of bull for a basketball take on it now.

[ChumpDumper]

THAT'S what I'm talking about. I don't have to wade through pages of bull for a basketball take on it now.

lol

Here's the Cliff's Notes:

1) Jimmer with is a good NBA player....or he isn't.

2) The Spurs front office is the worst front office except for all the other ones.

3) ST posters pick winners at 100% when it comes to looking at past drafts.

[dweaver99027]

Keep in mind, picking Butler probably means no Danny. And no LMA either if we gave Butler Kawhi money this year.

[AFBlue]

Umm, easy for me to say based on hindsight; but "clouded" is a bit too strong.

In the 10-11 college basketball season, I watched probably a dozen or more SDSU games; so, I was very familiar with KL; and I believed he was a top five prospect and maybe the best prospect in the draft. And when the Spurs traded George Hill for him, I was immediately pleased (which is saying a lot based on how GH had performed). I only lamented that the deal couldn't be done without getting rid of Hill.

For some reason, I saw a good amount of UT basketball that season. I knew CoJo would likely be a serviceable PG in this league despite his not outstanding numbers in college. I knew from watching him that it was not a big upside pick though as well. Frankly, he shouldn't have been drafted below 40th at the earliest was my feeling as I generally recall.

I can't say that I was high on Butler. I had him in the 25-40 range based on limited views of him. Had the Spurs drafted him, I wouldn't have been over enthused. But I would have said, that draft pick makes sense.

In the case of CoJo, my immediate thought was well, the Spurs could have traded down and got him and a future first. It was a bad pick even then.

So, no, I'm not saying I knew about Butler. I'm not saying that 6'7" wings always pan out. We know first hand about that based on that kid from Tennessee that we drafted a few years back. But I'm saying that the CoJo pick was funadmentally flawed from the start.

What I gathered from all of this is that you feel you're a better talent scout than the Spurs FO. Perhaps you should apply for a job with them tbqh.

[AFBlue]

Totally agree here. The Cojo pick was fundamentally flawed. Likely made out of laziness in the sense that they were successful in landing Leonard.

lazy FO

Yep, I can see Pop and RC in the war room after trading for Kawhi.

RC: Man, it was tough to swing that deal. I need a drink.
Pop: Me too. Plus I gotta go tell George.
Random Intern: Umm...sir...sirs. We still have three picks left.
Pop: You got this, kid. (Classic Popovich stare down)
RC: Excellent delegation. I'm thirsty, let's roll.

[ceperez]

lazy FO

Yep, I can see Pop and RC in the war room after trading for Kawhi.

RC: Man, it was tough to swing that deal. I need a drink.
Pop: Me too. Plus I gotta go tell George.
Random Intern: Umm...sir...sirs. We still have three picks left.
Pop: You got this, kid. (Classic Popovich stare down)
RC: Excellent delegation. I'm thirsty, let's roll.

More lilke:

RC: Man, it was tough to swing that deal. I need a drink.
Pop: Me too. Plus I gotta go tell George.
Random Intern: Umm...sir...sirs. We still have three picks left.
Pop: Just pick up that PG we planned to get on the 2nd round. (Classic Popovich stare down)
RC: Excellent delegation. I'm thirsty, let's roll.

[ChumpDumper]

What I gathered from all of this is that you feel you're a better talent scout than the Spurs FO. Perhaps you should apply for a job with them tbqh.

He needs to remember to demo his time machine during the interview.

[AFBlue]

More lilke:

RC: Man, it was tough to swing that deal. I need a drink.
Pop: Me too. Plus I gotta go tell George.
Random Intern: Umm...sir...sirs. We still have three picks left.
Pop: Just pick up that PG we planned to get on the 2nd round. (Classic Popovich stare down)
RC: Excellent delegation. I'm thirsty, let's roll.

They planned to pick Bertans in the second round tbqh. I don't understand the "lazy" argument, as you can probably tell by my sarcastic response. They clearly assessed Joseph as a first round talent, or they wouldn't have selected him there tbqh. I'm sure there were people this year that probably thought their team could get Terry Rozier in the latter part of the first round, but then he was taken at 17 by Boston.

Two points here that you shouldn't miss...

1) You're not smarter or more informed than the front office group that does this as their profession.
2) A player's value at draft time is ultimately measured by where they're drafted, not where they're mock drafted.

[Brazil]

dat ceperez poster tbh.... did not remember he was that bad at bb takes or that good at trolling

[benefactor]

Tbh. Dude is stupid as and annoying as .

You need to take that nig behind Whataburger. The whole Mexican community suffers a setback every time he opens ST in his browser.

[RD2191]

You need to take that nig behind Whataburger. The whole Mexican community suffers a setback every time he opens ST in his browser.

Yeah, dat bean needs a beatdown.

[Kidd K]

ST is the only place where you can find people moan the FO hasn't picked 2 max level players from the same draft but just one. FFS

Yeah and with the 29th pick no less.

Its pick #29 guys. There's not supposed to be good players left. If you get one it's incredibly fortunate.

[BatManu20]

Yeah and with the 29th pick no less.

Its pick #29 guys. There's not supposed to be good players left. If you get one it's incredibly fortunate.

Tell that to Parker haters, tbh.

[Spurtacular]

Yes, and they had used two first-rounders in a row on wings. Why you think they would have done so with a third while still having two wings making more than $10 Million a year makes no sense. It's a poor attempt a revisionist history, because it still would have turned out badly.



They drafted Joseph to develop over years. He wasn't their backup PG in 2012, just like Butler wouldn't have been their starting two that year. Cory's developed really well, considering he just got a big contract and so will be in the league for a least eight years. It's really looking like only Bulter, Parsons, Thomas and maybe Cole can say that.

Again, just really poor all around. The Spurs are better off WITHOUT Butler, even in a vacuum. You'd really prefer Jimmy over Danny AND LMA? Because that's what you'd get even in your idealized scenario.

I don't think who's making what really factors in on rookie contracts....

As for the idea that we may have ultimately been better without Butler b/c Green could've ended up the better fit; I think you could be right. Though, there's nothing to say that Butler couldn't have played her as an off the bench guy. Might he have bolted when we couldn't pay him at the end of the rookie contract? Yes. CoJo bolted too. My point wasn't so much about how it affects us now though as to the fact that the CoJo pick just simply wasn't a good pick at the time.

Though, we probably end up trading Butler sooner for some great return value in that scenario....

[Spurtacular]

What I gathered from all of this is that you feel you're a better talent scout than the Spurs FO. Perhaps you should apply for a job with them tbqh.

Well, if knowing without a doubt that the CoJo pick was the wrong pick, then yea, I'm better. I'm assuming that's your criteria, anyhow.

Though, I think it's a stupid argument anyhow. You don't have to graduate top five percent in Harvard law to be a good talent scout....

[ChumpDumper]

Umm, easy for me to say based on hindsight; but "clouded" is a bit too strong.

In the 10-11 college basketball season, I watched probably a dozen or more SDSU games; so, I was very familiar with KL; and I believed he was a top five prospect and maybe the best prospect in the draft. And when the Spurs traded George Hill for him, I was immediately pleased (which is saying a lot based on how GH had performed). I only lamented that the deal couldn't be done without getting rid of Hill.

For some reason, I saw a good amount of UT basketball that season. I knew CoJo would likely be a serviceable PG in this league despite his not outstanding numbers in college. I knew from watching him that it was not a big upside pick though as well. Frankly, he shouldn't have been drafted below 40th at the earliest was my feeling as I generally recall.

I can't say that I was high on Butler. I had him in the 25-40 range based on limited views of him. Had the Spurs drafted him, I wouldn't have been over enthused. But I would have said, that draft pick makes sense.

In the case of CoJo, my immediate thought was well, the Spurs could have traded down and got him and a future first. It was a bad pick even then.

So, no, I'm not saying I knew about Butler. I'm not saying that 6'7" wings always pan out. We know first hand about that based on that kid from Tennessee that we drafted a few years back. But I'm saying that the CoJo pick was funadmentally flawed from the start.

You're an amazing talent scout.

[Gladney to see you]

joke ???????????

They are different. They have shared a lot of time on the bench together over the years

[ceperez]

McCallum and Jimmer were both drafted by the Kings.

It'll be just sad if both become serviceable players for the Spurs.

[ceperez]

I want to see lots of this play run for Jimmer:



That's how to space the floor!