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  1. #2301
    LMAO koriwhat's Avatar
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    i think it should be considered a human right. for whatever its worth, the UN's declaration of human rights includes medical care.
    your thoughts and the UN too!

  2. #2302
    Veteran DMC's Avatar
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    i think it should be considered a human right. for whatever its worth, the UN's declaration of human rights includes medical care.

    you seem to be less comfortable with that term and prefer than i call it a need. i dont think the distinction is relevant in this discussion. there's a reasonable way to protect and ensure human rights are preserved. just because you cant get a daily dental cleaning doesnt mean your rights are being "limited." but the government has to act in a reasonable way.
    It's relevant. If it's a right, then someone must provide it or face criminal penalty. If it's a need, well we have a lot of needs.

    The strawman about "daily dental cleaning" is duly noted. What if I cannot get yearly dental cleaning at no cost? There's also a false dichotomy in your comment - the choices aren't limited to "free healthcare" or "unreasonable".

    I think everyone has a right to access to healthcare. I don't think the healthcare itself is a right. Everyone has that right now. If the argument is "cost of emergency rooms" that's not really a counter to the fact that people have access to healthcare now. Like legal representation, the quality and amount is dictated often by cost.

    Is it worse that someone cannot get timely knee replacement due to the lack of coverage than the fact that someone might be convicted to life in prison because they cannot get good legal representation?

  3. #2303
    Savvy Veteran spurraider21's Avatar
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    It's relevant. If it's a right, then someone must provide it or face criminal penalty. If it's a need, well we have a lot of needs.
    where are you getting that from?

    The strawman about "daily dental cleaning" is duly noted.
    you brought up "denial of cleanings or braces." who would be the one denying the services? business owners, including dentists, have the right to refuse service (as long as its not discriminatory). the government provided coverage would just mean that the dentist gets paid through that government plan, and that patient doesn't pay out of pocket. dentists and doctors aren't all going to become government employees who must provide service to everybody that runs through the door.

    What if I cannot get yearly dental cleaning at no cost?
    can you explain this? if your government health/dental plan allows for it, and if its a single payer system (everyone on the same plan), then you just have to find a dentist and make an appointment. the rationale behind M4A is that nobody should have to forego necessary medical or dental treatment because they cant afford insurance. M4A is all about the cost.

    There's also a false dichotomy in your comment - the choices aren't limited to "free healthcare" or "unreasonable".
    i didnt say there was. medicare for all means everybody gets free health coverage. i brought up reasonable as a way it would be implemented.

    I think everyone has a right to access to healthcare. I don't think the healthcare itself is a right. Everyone has that right now. If the argument is "cost of emergency rooms" that's not really a counter to the fact that people have access to healthcare now. Like legal representation, the quality and amount is dictated often by cost.
    "access" barely has any cognizable meaning in this context. everyone has access to lamborghinis. everyone has access to billion dollar mansions. everyone has access to luxurious vacation homes and private jets.

    nobody ever claimed that people dont have "access" to healthcare in that they are phsyically/legally precluded from obtaining it. its that a lot of people cannot afford basic needs and have no de facto access to it.

    Is it worse that someone cannot get timely knee replacement due to the lack of coverage than the fact that someone might be convicted to life in prison because they cannot get good legal representation?
    there's no need to change the subject to legal representation or get into the discussion of which is "worse." i think healthcare should be treated as a human right. let's just leave it at that.

  4. #2304
    Savvy Veteran spurraider21's Avatar
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    translation:


  5. #2305
    Veteran DMC's Avatar
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    Bernie knows a "corporate bailout" isn't socialism. riding duly noted.

  6. #2306
    Veteran DMC's Avatar
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    where are you getting that from?
    14th Amendment.
    you brought up "denial of cleanings or braces." who would be the one denying the services? business owners, including dentists, have the right to refuse service (as long as its not discriminatory). the government provided coverage would just mean that the dentist gets paid through that government plan, and that patient doesn't pay out of pocket. dentists and doctors aren't all going to become government employees who must provide service to everybody that runs through the door.
    Who goes to a dentist for cleanings every day? Eat that turd instead of pretending you didn't lay it. So then these people don't have the right. They have only the right to service that's paid for, just like the right to cable television, if you paid for it, or a full refund.
    can you explain this? if your government health/dental plan allows for it, and if its a single payer system (everyone on the same plan), then you just have to find a dentist and make an appointment. the rationale behind M4A is that nobody should have to forego necessary medical or dental treatment because they cant afford insurance. M4A is all about the cost.
    I'm saying how it is right now, if I was without a job and without coverage, could I walk into a dentist's office and demand a routine cleaning? If it's my right I should be able to.
    i didnt say there was. medicare for all means everybody gets free health coverage. i brought up reasonable as a way it would be implemented.
    Now the health coverage is free again? You said the government has to act reasonable. What else does the government act reasonable about? How about the IRS? ATF? FBI or CIA? HUD? EPA? DoE? What exactly does the government do efficiently and reasonably besides fight wars?
    "access" barely has any cognizable meaning in this context. everyone has access to lamborghinis. everyone has access to billion dollar mansions. everyone has access to luxurious vacation homes and private jets.
    Access to healthcare means that it's available, but it's not free. You should still receive a minimum level of care and the billing can be figured out afterward, but that's only access to healthcare (I didn't say access to hospitals or clinics).

    If I have access to a Lambo, I get to drive a Lambo, or use a mansion I have access to. I could be charged for it (like a lease vehicle or rental property) but I still have access. It doesn't make it free. Do you have access to private jets? Let me guess, semantics again.
    nobody ever claimed that people dont have "access" to healthcare in that they are phsyically/legally precluded from obtaining it. its that a lot of people cannot afford basic needs and have no de facto access to it.
    Access to health care means having "the timely use of personal health services to achieve the best health outcomes" (IOM, 1993).

    It doesn't mean you can walk into a clinic without being arrested.
    there's no need to change the subject to legal representation or get into the discussion of which is "worse." i think healthcare should be treated as a human right. let's just leave it at that.
    Right, because your profession should not be included in the giveaway.

  7. #2307
    Free at last. TheGreatYacht's Avatar
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    Bernie knows a "corporate bailout" isn't socialism. riding duly noted.

  8. #2308
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    Bernie knows a "corporate bailout" isn't socialism. riding duly noted.
    Safety net for regular citizens = socialism

    Safety net and decade long subsidies for insolvent banks and lenders = ???

  9. #2309
    🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆 ElNono's Avatar
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    Same with all aspects of life. Defacto rationing for college, for food, for housing, for lifestyle.. because people want to be paid for the work they do. It's why we don't just settle for minimum wage jobs. About 250K Canadians come to the US yearly to seek better, more timely healthcare. This is after they've paid those taxes for the universal breadline version.
    Depends, it's not all cases. In some areas, like with the elderly, or defense, or emergencies, or public infrastructure, we let the government use our tax dollars to fulfill a higher goal beyond what's sometimes cost-efficient, and/or profitable, for the well-being of the citizenry as a whole. And at the very end, that's the key discussion on healthcare too.

    1.4 million Americans traveled to other countries in 2017 doing Medical Tourism, up from 750K in 2007. US healthcare cost is out of control, has been for a long time now.

    https://www.amjmed.com/article/S0002...620-X/fulltext

  10. #2310
    🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆 ElNono's Avatar
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    As far as the questions I'm seeing of 'how would it work? who pays for what?', well, look at every country not named the US, where there are a plethora of different systems, with different degrees of government intervention. From fully government run, to mixed public/private systems, etc.

  11. #2311
    Free at last. TheGreatYacht's Avatar
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    The Grayzone's Anya Parampil slams mainstream media's anti-Sanders bias on Tucker Carlson Tonight

  12. #2312
    Veteran DMC's Avatar
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    Safety net for regular citizens = socialism

    Safety net and decade long subsidies for insolvent banks and lenders = ???
    Taking money from the federal government and giving it to the private sector is not socialism.

  13. #2313
    Veteran DMC's Avatar
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    Depends, it's not all cases. In some areas, like with the elderly, or defense, or emergencies, or public infrastructure, we let the government use our tax dollars to fulfill a higher goal beyond what's sometimes cost-efficient, and/or profitable, for the well-being of the citizenry as a whole. And at the very end, that's the key discussion on healthcare too.

    1.4 million Americans traveled to other countries in 2017 doing Medical Tourism, up from 750K in 2007. US healthcare cost is out of control, has been for a long time now.

    https://www.amjmed.com/article/S0002...620-X/fulltext
    Yeah the Texas state government took 20 ing years to complete the project on IH-35 but the private sector builds a toll road from Georgetown to San Antonio in about 3 years.

    Just because some basic services are provided by the State and federal government using taxpayer money doesn't mean other services should be.

    I understand some aspects when it's a problem of ours but if it's a problem of mine that seems to be something I should be responsible for. FEMA doesn't get involved if my house floods only if everyone's house floods.
    Last edited by DMC; 4 Weeks Ago at 09:08 AM.

  14. #2314
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    Taking money from the federal government and giving it to the private sector is not socialism.
    what would you call the public paying for private losses?

    welfare for real individuals equals socialism but welfare for fic ious individuals (corporations)somehow isn't?

    what makes it not welfare in your opinion?

  15. #2315
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    Sanders also leads head to head polling of all candidates vs. Trump


  16. #2316
    Savvy Veteran spurraider21's Avatar
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    Taking money from the federal government and giving it to the private sector is not socialism.
    Redistribution of wealth via taxes

  17. #2317
    Savvy Veteran spurraider21's Avatar
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    I have never once thought “gee i wish there was a toll road coming up” when driving

  18. #2318
    Happy New Decade! Millennial_Messiah's Avatar
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    Sanders also leads head to head polling of all candidates vs. Trump

    giving Trump the normative +7 due to leftward poll bias and primary stages, it seems Bernie is the only one with a legit shot to beat Trump H2H

  19. #2319
    Savvy Veteran spurraider21's Avatar
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    giving Trump the normative +7 due to leftward poll bias and primary stages, it seems Bernie is the only one with a legit shot to beat Trump H2H
    That’s neat

  20. #2320
    Happy New Decade! Millennial_Messiah's Avatar
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    Yeah the Texas state government took 20 ing years to complete the project on IH-35 but the private sector builds a toll road from Georgetown to San Antonio in about 3 years.

    Just because some basic services are provided by the State and federal government using taxpayer money doesn't mean other services should be.

    I understand some aspects when it's a problem of ours but if it's a problem of mine that seems to be something I should be responsible for. FEMA doesn't get involved if my house floods only if everyone's house floods.
    410 and Marbach area construction took like 5 years for a teeny tiny stretch of road that spanned middle and high school for me.

    And to add to your point, the IH-35 project that took 20 years still isn't finished... there are still a good handful of 5-10 mile wide stretches between SA and Hillsboro (the 35W/35E junction) that you have to slow down to 60mph for "work zones" even though I've never seen any workers actually present.

    There's your property and sales tax money at work.

  21. #2321
    Happy New Decade! Millennial_Messiah's Avatar
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  22. #2322
    sick demented ring****** ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    comparing I35 to a toll road built through cow pastures.

  23. #2323
    Savvy Veteran spurraider21's Avatar
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    What about it. National polls capture the popular vote. Trump lost that by millions

  24. #2324
    Happy New Decade! Millennial_Messiah's Avatar
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    What about it. National polls capture the popular vote. Trump lost that by millions
    But not by near the % margin the polls had indicated, especially for the states that mattered.

    Exit polls in early Nov. 2016 had Hillary +11, +7, +9, 12 in states like MI and WI....lol... MN +14 and +16 and she barely won there, etc.

  25. #2325
    sick demented ring****** ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    But not by near the % margin the polls had indicated, especially for the states that mattered.

    Exit polls in early Nov. 2016 had Hillary +11, +7, +9, 12 in states like MI and WI....lol... MN +14 and +16 and she barely won there, etc.
    Do you mean exit polls of early voters?

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