Anderson's defense

[aal04]

Ive never seen a player sag off as much as him. He will defend smaller plays by staying beside them and not infront of them and he can be very effective from that position.

He will have trouble with those taller perimeter players, but then again, so does everyone else ala Durant.

The only question mark for me is if it panics the team and forces unnecessary help defense. It may look a bit chaotic out there with him.

[Fireball]

That's all he needs to be as a bench player.

that was I wanted to say

[All Mighty Janitor]

He's been fouling quite a bit in the preseason. He's is gonna have to clean that up. If Anderson and West keep fouling like they have, opponents will be getting into the bonus early. That's really going to hurt the spurs in 2nd and 4th quarters, especially against Harden, Westbrook, And Durant.

[sasaint]

They're teaching him good positional defense. On one play, he got a steal against Houston, and their announcer said that he kicked the ball, or might have. He didn't. He's just an absolute condor with that 7'3" wingspan. He will steal the ball or block your shot if you're not careful and mindful of his arms. He's not like Kawhi in that he's going to just take it from you, but he's great at playing the passing lanes, and picking off passes that people think they can throw over the top.

Yep, I pointed this play out in another thread. It was impressive, like a SS getting his glove down to snag a hot grounder. His length is a much greater asset than many realize. With his BB IQ and playing on the Spurs, he will be an asset not a liability in team defense. And he will only improve with coaching, experience and physical development. He is a kid! His body is nowhere close to what it will become. He will be a fine rotation player this year and only improve in years to come.

[Chinook]

He doesn't blow by shooters like Danny.

I largely agreed with your post. I've said for a while that Anderson will be a plus defender if he is able to play within the team scope. He simply doesn't have to guard difficult guys very often, and he can get the steals, blocks and rebounds he needs to make up for whatever speed he doesn't have.

However, I just wanted to touch on the part of your post I quoted above. I see a lot of posts talking about Green "falling for fakes" or "getting blown by" against shooters, especially those beyond the three-point line. It's been a topic on this board for a few years. It's a misconception that jumping at three-point shooters is bad defense. Danny and the other player who jump are not trying to block the shot. When the shooter pulls the ball back down and moves, he's doing EXACTLY what Green is trying to get him to do. Danny is trading an assisted three attempt for an off-dribble two or unassisted three. It's a very good trade in terms of expected points allowed.

And it doesn't actually lead to more fouls, as Danny is great at jumping away from the shooter. He takes himself out of the play in both a good and bad way. When you close out but try to stay in position, you often end up touching the player, either with the contesting hand or by moving your body under their feet.



Five of those shots were after closeouts. Three were soft (guy not jumping at the attempt), and two were hard (doing what Danny almost always). Of course, undisciplined defenders might foul by sticking their hands out while flying by. But those guys are trying to block the shot. For the most part, Green is just trying to disrupt the shooter's timing and force him to move off the line. Obviously, the benefit of selling out to prevent the three depends on the shooter. No one should by diving at Tony Allen. But Danny puts up elite defensive numbers because he's good defending. Don't let Pop's tirades convince you otherwise.

[SAGirl]

I largely agreed with your post. I've said for a while that Anderson will be a plus defender if he is able to play within the team scope. He simply doesn't have to guard difficult guys very often, and he can get the steals, blocks and rebounds he needs to make up for whatever speed he doesn't have.

However, I just wanted to touch on the part of your post I quoted above. I see a lot of posts talking about Green "falling for fakes" or "getting blown by" against shooters, especially those beyond the three-point line. It's been a topic on this board for a few years. It's a misconception that jumping at three-point shooters is bad defense. Danny and the other player who jump are not trying to block the shot. When the shooter pulls the ball back down and moves, he's doing EXACTLY what Green is trying to get him to do. Danny is trading an assisted three attempt for an off-dribble two or unassisted three. It's a very good trade in terms of expected points allowed.

And it doesn't actually lead to more fouls, as Danny is great at jumping away from the shooter. He takes himself out of the play in both a good and bad way. When you close out but try to stay in position, you often end up touching the player, either with the contesting hand or by moving your body under their feet.



Five of those shots were after closeouts. Three were soft (guy not jumping at the attempt), and two were hard (doing what Danny almost always). Of course, undisciplined defenders might foul by sticking their hands out while flying by. But those guys are trying to block the shot. For the most part, Green is just trying to disrupt the shooter's timing and force him to move off the line. Obviously, the benefit of selling out to prevent the three depends on the shooter. No one should by diving at Tony Allen. But Danny puts up elite defensive numbers because he's good defending. Don't let Pop's tirades convince you otherwise.

Kyle closes on shooters w/o getting out of the play. That is way harder to do than what Danny does. Kawhi is actually a master at closing out in control and its probably a factor of body control plus his size . Not having to cover that much ground at to speed like Danny does. I love Danny in many other respects but him closing out shooters and getting out of the play is one of the things he is not a master of. He probably is running at too fast a speed to close out and come to a stop w/o fouling the shooter.

[Chinook]

Kyle closes on shooters w/o getting out of the play. That is way harder to do than what Danny does. Kawhi is actually a master at closing out in control and its probably a factor of body control plus his size . Not having to cover that much ground at to speed like Danny does. I love Danny in many other respects but him closing out shooters and getting out of the play is one of the things he is not a master of. He probably is running at too fast a speed to close out and come to a stop w/o fouling the shooter.

The point is you WANT to get out of the play. You want the guy to take the inefficient shot you're giving him as opposed to jack up a semi-contested three in rhythm. If it's a good shooter, you want them to not shoot at all costs. Now, if it's a bad shooter, you don't want to give them a driving lane. On those, you just want to get in position slowly and encourage the shot. Green's not diving a Josh Smith spotting up.

I complied the numbers concerning this during the 2014 WCF. This is what I had to say (thread was http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/show...php?t=233435):

Three-Point Defense



This was a subplot I paid attention to for the WCF. I stopped posting the chart after Game One, but I kept track of the numbers.

Series
	Result	Three	Two	Foul	Miss	Pass	Total
	Hard	10	3	0	26	4	43
	Soft	4	4	6	7	1	22
	Stunt	1	0	0	0	0	1
	None	4	0	0	2	0	6

(In case anyone is wondering, the Spurs jumped on all but two hard-closes while jumping on three soft-closes.)


As you can see, the Spurs are a hard-closing team, and they do so because it is a very successful strategy. There are a lot more intricacies to this than I am listing, obviously, and during the summer, I intend to get more into various strategies. We’ll see how that goes. For now, this was a fun little exercise.

Most Spurs do what Danny does, and it leads to better results even if it looks like it's bad. When you're trying to run at full speed and stop on a dime with a hand in the shooter's face, a LOT of bad things can happen. The most benign of these is that the shooter will just shoot anyway, in rhythm. But it can lead to driving lanes almost as easily since the closer has to stop their momentum and can't really contest a drive without bumping into his man. It forces more awkward rotations since the closer is still technically in the play. It leads to tons of fouls, since the closer is usually somewhat out of control but also moving toward the shooter, making him a relatively easy target for baiting.

[SAGirl]

The point is you WANT to get out of the play. You want the guy to take the inefficient shot you're giving him as opposed to jack up a semi-contested three in rhythm. If it's a good shooter, you want them to not shoot at all costs. Now, if it's a bad shooter, you don't want to give them a driving lane. On those, you just want to get in position slowly and encourage the shot. Green's not diving a Josh Smith spotting up.

I complied the numbers concerning this during the 2014 WCF. This is what I had to say (thread was http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/show...php?t=233435):



Most Spurs do what Danny does, and it leads to better results even if it looks like it's bad. When you're trying to run at full speed and stop on a dime with a hand in the shooter's face, a LOT of bad things can happen. The most benign of these is that the shooter will just shoot anyway, in rhythm. But it can lead to driving lanes almost as easily since the closer has to stop their momentum and can't really contest a drive without bumping into his man. It forces more awkward rotations since the closer is still technically in the play. It leads to tons of fouls, since the closer is usually somewhat out of control but also moving toward the shooter, making him a relatively easy target for baiting.

We'll just have to disagree. YOu are not going to convince me that closing out and getting out of the play is better. Sometimes the shooter will fake you a la Marco and just take an uncontested shot or just drive at top speed b4 Timmy is able to come out to get into the play himself. In fact, never mind that, Tim is not going to help since it leaves his man open for an alley oop, or a pass for an easy shot at the rim. It is tough to run at a guy and close out w/o getting out of the play. That Kyle has been able to do that has surprised me a whole lot and is a plus TBH.

[ElNono]

this discussion again?

It's not hard: run to the chest, put your hand up. If you jump, only straight up. That's it. Any other "closeout" is just not proper, can lead to 4 point plays, etc. If you want the opposing player to shoot, then you just give him room.

All the Spurs want is the shot to be contested, which means, having a hand up on the shooter. No hero blocks, etc.

[Chinook]

this discussion again?

It's not hard: run to the chest, put your hand up. If you jump, only straight up. That's it. Any other "closeout" is just not proper, can lead to 4 point plays, etc. If you want the opposing player to shoot, then you just give him room.

All the Spurs want is the shot to be contested, which means, having a hand up on the shooter. No hero blocks, etc.

They don't want the shot at all. Like when they double, they aren't desperately trying to block or contest the offensive player. They are trying to discourage any shot at all.

[SAGirl]

this discussion again?

It's not hard: run to the chest, put your hand up. If you jump, only straight up. That's it. Any other "closeout" is just not proper, can lead to 4 point plays, etc. If you want the opposing player to shoot, then you just give him room.

All the Spurs want is the shot to be contested, which means, having a hand up on the shooter. No hero blocks, etc.

I didn't know this discussion had a history here since I am new and I am not trying to reignite it. IMO closing out the shooter while staying in front of the play, has been a plus of Anderson. He plays in control - his famous deliberate speed. Its surprised me that he's able to help and recover without getting out of the play. Its a factor of his body control. Its not something that you would have expected him to be good at and he is. That is a plus. Not everyone can do that, and its probably the fact taht they run at top speed and are unable to stop. That is a strength of Kawhi's honestly.


Either way, Chinook not going to convince me that we want Anderson to blow by players instead of what he's doing right now.

[sasaint]

Thanks to SAGirl and Chinook for very good discussion. As a former (read: long-ago) basketball player, this strategy is a more difficult concepts or me to grasp than pulling up for 3s on fast breaks. Both are an hetical to tenets of coaching back in my day and require serious paradigm shifts to grasp. It took a couple of years for me to grasp the defensive strategy and stop yelling at my TV for Danny to "stay on your feet." Chinook, the chart is great for illustrating the reason for the change of strategy. Thanks again folks for some very good discussion.

[ElNono]

They don't want the shot at all. Like when they double, they aren't desperately trying to block or contest the offensive player. They are trying to discourage any shot at all.

You can't control what the opposing player does. You can only try to lure them into doing something uncomfortable. You can't prevent Curry or KD from shooting, you want them to feel like they're taking a high difficulty shot, and thus make them think there's a better option by passing. That's what contesting a shot is. Statistically, contested shots are much harder to hit. You want to play those odds.

[Chinook]

We'll just have to disagree. YOu are not going to convince me that closing out and getting out of the play is better. Sometimes the shooter will fake you a la Marco and just take an uncontested shot or just drive at top speed b4 Timmy is able to come out to get into the play himself. In fact, never mind that, Tim is not going to help since it leaves his man open for an alley oop, or a pass for an easy shot at the rim. It is tough to run at a guy and close out w/o getting out of the play. That Kyle has been able to do that has surprised me a whole lot and is a plus TBH.

Marco is playing into people's hands when he does that. If he "pump-fakes", he's already lost. His man didn't want him to shoot that shot in the first place, so Marco is just playing into his hands. As Seventyniner pointed out in another thread, not all shots from the same spots are created equal. It's much easier to make any shot when it's assisted and in rhythm than it is to make it when you have to do anything else, whether than's dribble, drive or simply reset your motion. Are some players good enough to make a high percentage or resets? Yes. Are most? No.

As far as drives go, as I mentioned, that's not nearly exclusive to hard-closes. Any time you're running toward a player, you're out of position. The difference is, when you're hard closing, the defense already knows it's going to have to rotate. Duncan doesn't have to wait for Danny's man to start moving, since he knows Danny is going to leave that lane open.

I'm very confident that the numbers will support my stance if someone has compiled them for other samples, but obviously, I don't have them. We'll have to agree to disagree indeed. I think Anderson is doing what's best for him, but by no means would I want Danny doing the same.

[ElNono]

This discussion has a few lols from 2014 with Chinook... but it's all good, I think he really likes the way Danny closesouts on shots, even though it's really prone to fouling or pump-fakes...

It's hard for players to stop on a dime when the adrenaline is rushing, and so you see a lot of 4pt plays when hitting shooters these days... it's not just Danny... but he has heard it from Pop before about those flyby closeouts...

[ElNono]

I should add, what I like about Kyle is that he can give a little more room to the shooter, because of his amazing length. Players like Manu has to play guys tight and while Gino happens to be a guy that's very mindful of contesting every shot, his size can hurt him on fakes. I think Anderson has the youth and size to play that better.

[Chinook]

You can't control what the opposing player does. You can only try to lure them into doing something uncomfortable. You can't prevent Curry or KD from shooting, you want them to feel like they're taking a high difficulty shot, and thus make them think there's a better option by passing. That's what contesting a shot is. Statistically, contested shots are much harder to hit. You want to play those odds.

Yes, but a hand in the face is for a knock-down shooter is not the same as a body in the face. That's why the Spurs don't just do that. Hard-closes aren't a means of making a shot harder; they're a threat to stop or delay a shot. As I said, it's like a double-team. You want the player to pass out of it. People acting like players pulling the ball down are "faking out" defenders is like saying that players who pass out of double-teams are outsmarting defenses. I feel like it's just a superficial analysis.

[Chinook]

This discussion has a few lols from 2014 with Chinook... but it's all good, I think he really likes the way Danny closesouts on shots, even though it's really prone to fouling or pump-fakes...

You act like almost everyone paying attention to the closeouts during that series didn't see my point. You yourself said that no matter how much evidence I showed you you'd never agree due to your Italian heritage or something. As the numbers in that series showed, NOBODY fouled on hard-closes. If you do it right, you're not anywhere near the shooter. It's really hard to draw a foul on a guy who's flying away from you, since you have to catch up to him. Now if a guy is undisciplined and leaves a hand out, then that's another story. Bad defenders are bad defenders no matter what strategy they use.

[sasaint]

I think Anderson is doing what's best for him, but by no means would I want Danny doing the same.

Whatever the technique, Kyle promises to be an effective defender in the Spurs team defense, and we know how effective Danny already is. I am pretty certain that I don't want Kyle trying to mimic Danny in his hard closes.

[ElNono]

You act like almost everyone paying attention to the closeouts during that series didn't see my point. You yourself said that no matter how much evidence I showed you you'd never agree due to your Italian heritage or something. As the numbers in that series showed, NOBODY fouled on hard-closes. If you do it right, you're not anywhere near the shooter. It's really hard to draw a foul on a guy who's flying away from you, since you have to catch up to him. Now if a guy is undisciplined and leaves a hand out, then that's another story. Bad defenders are bad defenders no matter what strategy they use.

The discussion really ended when Danny did one of your famed 'hard closeouts' on Ray Allen, bought the fake, and Allen nailed the 3 comfortably, followed by Pop chewing his ass about running to his chest. I can get you video or bump the thread, if you don't remember, tbh...

I've nothing against your theories, they're your opinion, that's fine. I think they're just wrong.

[SAGirl]

It's hard for players to stop on a dime when the adrenaline is rushing, and so you see a lot of 4pt plays when hitting shooters these days... it's not just Danny... but he has heard it from Pop before about those flyby closeouts...

This is probably factored into Chinook's argument. If you are not able to close out and stay on the play, then Pop just gameplans for you to get out of the play and try to play the man one way or another. It doesn't mean that its better thatn to simply close out and stay on the play if you can. Like I said, I have been surprised that Kyle has been able to do that and its a function of his body control. Kawhi is a master at that, and I remember reading an article when he was first gaining notoriety as a defender that remarked many aspects unique to him, like his length, hand size, ability to get back in plays from behind after being "picked" or blown by, etc. Kawhi is special bc of how many tools he has, and his unique instincts, but one thing that was mentioned was his body control, precisely how he is able to close out and contest without fouling, getting out of the play, biting on pump fakes etc.

Kyle is nowhere near Kawhi's level, but the length of his strides, his arms length and the fact he always plays in control allow him to help and recover, without getting out of most plays. Twice he fouled a guy in a play, and it wasn't even a function of closing out of control. He was careless. Most of the time, I have watched, he's surprised me, closing out on Marco in that SAC game for example without fouling him, going for his pump fakes or giving him a drive, and Marco got Danny, Ray and Simmons in that game to either foul him, or just simply wait for them to get out of the play giving him a drive and dish or some other option.

Needless to say, we will have up and down moments with Kyle this season, but he's been impressive.

[Chinook]

The discussion really ended when Danny did one of your famed 'hard closeouts' on Ray Allen, bought the fake, and Allen nailed the 3 comfortably, followed by Pop chewing his ass about running to his chest. I can get you video or bump the thread, if you don't remember, tbh...

Yes, I remember that. And he did nothing the dozens of times it worked. That Pop doesn't like the strategy does nothing to dilute its effectiveness. It just sort of makes Pop seem like he's out of touch.

[ElNono]

Yes, but a hand in the face is for a knock-down shooter is not the same as a body in the face. That's why the Spurs don't just do that. Hard-closes aren't a means of making a shot harder; they're a threat to stop or delay a shot. As I said, it's like a double-team. You want the player to pass out of it. People acting like players pulling the ball down are "faking out" defenders is like saying that players who pass out of double-teams are outsmarting defenses. I feel like it's just a superficial analysis.

Not sure what you're talking about here. Pop wants defenders close to good shooters, like every other pro basketball coach, so they can put a hand up and contest. That's it, there's no other secret. If he drives, he drives and you hope team defense helps out. That's the trade off against great players.

[ElNono]

Yes, I remember that. And he did nothing the dozens of times it worked. That Pop doesn't like the strategy does nothing to dilute its effectiveness. It just sort of makes Pop seem like he's out of touch.

It's basketball 101 and playing the odds. This is pro ball, if you want to take the ball away from a player, you double team.

[Chinook]

If he drives, he drives and you hope team defense helps out. That's the trade off against great players.

That's not unique to soft-closeouts. In the Thunder series, the difference in efficiency was almost 2:1. It wasn't even close as to whether the Spurs used a hard or soft strategy predominantly (again 2:1). And one was obviously more successful. It simply doesn't matter what Pop prefers.