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I hate Kobe but he is top 10, lets be honest here
http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/insid...all-player-nbaWith Los Angeles Lakers star Kobe Bryant announcing his retirement from basketball at the end of the 2015-16 season, attention now turns to Bryant's legacy.
Just five months remain in Kobe's career, so this seems like a good time to ask about where he ranks among the all-time greats. In particular, is he one of the 10 best to play the game?
A close reading of the facts suggests the answer is no. As remarkable as his career has been, Bryant's résumé can't quite compare to that of the league's inner-circle Hall of Famers.
Win shares: Kobe ranks No. 15
Win shares, found at Basketball Reference, are our most complete historic NBA metric. They give us a way to compare players across NBA eras.
Although full box-score stats did not become available until 1977-78, when the league started tracking player turnovers, Basketball Reference estimates turnovers and other stats that were not recorded at the time (including steals and blocks before 1973-74) to come up with approximations for player value throughout league history.
Bryant is currently 15th among NBA players in career win shares (172.5), with an outside chance of surpassing Reggie Miller (174.4) by the end of the season, if he improves his level of play. Because he has started so poorly, Bryant has actually lost 0.6 win shares from his career total so far this season.
Expected championships added: Kobe ranks No. 20
As Miller's high ranking suggests, the problem with using win shares as a historic measuring stick is they tend to reward longevity over quality of play. To better reflect the impact players had on their teams, I've developed a model that relates their win shares each season to a typical team's chances of winning a championship.
This model shows value is exponential rather than linear. For instance, a season with 15 win shares (such as Bryant's 2005-06 campaign) is nearly three times as valuable as one with 10 win shares (such as his 2010-11).
A preliminary version of this model shows Bryant 20th all time in expected championships added (ECA), just behind Larry Bird and ahead of the late Moses Malone.
Why Kobe doesn't rate as well by advanced stats:
Added PLAYER CAREER WIN SHARES WS RANK
Wilt Chamberlain 3.82 247.3 2 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 3.14 273.4 1 Michael Jordan 2.69 214.0 4 Karl Malone 1.86 234.6 3 LeBron James 1.84 178.9 11 Oscar Robertson 1.73 189.2 9 David Robinson 1.63 178.7 12 Dirk Nowitzki 1.40 192.0 7 John Stockton 1.32 207.7 5 Tim Duncan 1.30 201.2 6 Bill Russell 1.23 163.5 17 Kevin Garnett 1.23 190.4 8 Charles Barkley 1.22 177.2 13 George Mikan 1.22 87.8 111 Shaquille O'Neal 1.19 181.7 10 Jerry West 1.16 162.6 19 Magic Johnson 1.14 155.8 20 Chris Paul 1.10 131.3 32 Larry Bird 1.05 145.8 23 Kobe Bryant 1.01 173.1 15
Bryant comes out slightly worse by this method because of his lack of truly elite statistical seasons. Bryant's best season in terms of win shares, 2005-06, ranks 102nd in NBA history behind, for example, Stephen Curry's 2014-15 campaign.
That's fairly consistent with what other advanced metrics indicate. Bryant's 2005-06 performance did rank 56th all-time in PER, but his best season by my wins above replacement player statistic (2002-03, with 20.4 WAR) ranks 72nd, dating back to 1977-78.
ESPN's real plus-minus (RPM) is even harsher. Because of the need for detailed play-by-play data, RPM is available only since 2000-01, but in that span, Bryant's best rating (plus-6.3 points per 100 possessions in 2007-08) ranks 80th in that span.
These all-in-one metrics are universally picking up that by the standards of all-time great scorers, Bryant was relatively inefficient. Bryant's best season in terms of true shooting percentage (.580 in 2006-07) would rank seventh in Michael Jordan's career, seventh in LeBron James' and behind five of Kevin Durant's seven full seasons.
Since Bryant wasn't an exceptional rebounder or distributor and has never rated especially well statistically as a defender, he would need to be better than his peers as a scorer to provide more value than they did. That was only the case in Bryant's very best seasons.
The verdict
Naturally, the arguments in favor of Bryant's greatness are likely to revolve around the five championships the Lakers won during his career. While it's a bad idea to credit team success to one individual, it is true that Bryant's postseason performance is a point in his favor.
He ranks eighth in career playoff win shares. Factoring in playoff value surely lifts Bryant's all-time rank from 20th, but it's harder to make the case that he should jump all the way into the top 10.
It's not just advanced statistics that are down on Bryant's best seasons. He won only one MVP award, which puts him behind the 12 players (including former Lakers teammate Steve Nash) who won the league's highest honor multiple times.
Although there's a case to be made that Bryant should have won in 2005-06, when he set an NBA record for usage rate and carried a limited Lakers team to the playoffs, Bryant benefited from something of a "lifetime achievement" factor in 2007-08, when he beat Kevin Garnett and Chris Paul for the award.
In terms of the share of MVP votes ac ulated over the course of his career, Bryant ranks 11th.
Considering all those factors, I'd ultimately rank Bryant somewhere around the 15th-best player in NBA history. You might move him a few spots in either direction, depending how you value playoff performance versus regular-season success, peak value versus longevity and the league's quality of play over time.
But when it comes to cracking the 10 best NBA players ever, Bryant didn't quite accomplish enough in a career that now has a finish line in sight..
I hate Kobe but he is top 10, lets be honest here
Consistent with what I have been saying forever, Kobe is a top 13 to 15 player:
In no particular order:
Jordan
Magic
Bird
Wilt
Russell
KAJ
Duncan
Shaq
Moses
Lebron
Oscar
Hakeem
Then the next group:
West
Dr. J
Kobe
Arguments to be made for Dirk, Garnett, Rick Barry, Robinson, and such, but those are long stretches.
It begins.
New Media
Why do you say that?
Its true... he isnt top ten. But damn close.
Although im VERY surprised someone actually came out and said it.
Media overrating Kirby as usual by comparing top 10 all-time players to someone who isn't even top 1000.
Well thought out article. It's nice to see people trying to form a legit opinion based of research and not just the eye ball test. It really is an antiquated mindset Kobe fans have and they will scream bloody murder as more and more of these things come out .
can you imagine if he retired in 2007 in an era of Wilbon and other old school simpletons dictating the narrative
New Media
Come on, back when it was Spurs Lakers every year, that dude was ing assassin, he was unstoppable when he got it going. Just cuz he has sucked lately doesnt mean that he isnt top 10, I think the problem is that a lot of these posters are young and werent around during that time so they never saw it.
Harlem Bots activated.
Nah - he's been great and it's not a knock to say he's not top 10. Just because he's done a lot of great things, doesn't mean there weren't negatives. His negatives and by most advanced study, he's not top 10.
It's the truth - the days of just watching a guy chuck and not looking beyond the basic box score are over. Those who just use terms that can't be proven (he's fierce, blah blah blah) are going by the wayside. He had an amazing career, a ridiculous work eithic and has won at every level.
But his flaws keep him from the top 10 and it's not some travesty to say so.
I would put him ahead of Oscar, LeBron, and Moses. I also think Russell is not as good as people give him credit for. But you cant have LeBron ahead of Kobe yet, he needs another le.
That doesn't make sense to me. Ring arguments aren't the end all, be all or else Horry is better than Kobe and Russell certainly is. Kobe wasn't the top dog on the le teams either (how many finals MVP's does he have)? He was huge part, but not always the true leader.
Lebron is easily ahead of Kobe whether or not he wins another ring.
Kobe just wants attention. Announcing retirement at 37. Duncan/Manu were still winning a le at 37/38.
No, he isn't. Where does this bull about Kobe being an undisputed top 10 player comes from?
Jordan, Wilt, Russell, Kareem, Bird, Magic, Duncan, Shaq, Lebron, Hakeem, Moses Malone, Oscar Robertson, West, Mikan and some others I'm forgetting all have a case to be above Kobe. Not to mention guys like Curry and Durant who had already proven to have a bigger peak than Bryant.
Its not ring arguments. Its ALPHA ring arguments. And Kobe, at best, has 2. Maybe. Depending on how you feel about the Lakers being a complete bag of s Pre and Post-Pau.
Everyone knows me as a Kobe hater, but I'm really not. He was a fine player and just massively overhyped in the NBA's desperation to manufacture the new Jordan. When I say Dirk>Kobe, or Kobe isn't top 10 of all-time, I'm not trolling out of "hate." The stats (and even eye test, i.e. Kobe's defensive issues, even in his prime, and his ball dominance/poor shot selection) simply don't support that claim.
Is he a top ten talent of all-time (footwork, one-on-one unstoppabliity, shot difficulty ability, finishing ability in his prime)? Yeah. But he's not a top ten team basketball player of all-time, and what always held him back was this obsession with personal greatness and filling Jordan's shoes. You can see it in that photo of him eyeing Shaq's Finals MVP with the saltiest look on his face.
More butthurt Spur fans.
LOL CP3 over Bird AND Kobe?
Karl Malone, Dirk and David over Tim?
Love when SPur fans posts some that makes their own guys look bad?
This list is ...
Especially sweet when Amb co-signs but then gives is own list. is this metric good or not? If not, why did OP even bother posting? Karl Malone top 5 ...
Metrics better than eye test
There's other metrics though that justify that opinion.LOL CP3 over Bird AND Kobe?
Karl Malone, Dirk and David over Tim?
Love when SPur fans posts some that makes their own guys look bad?
This list is ...
Now playoff win shares seems more legit, Kobe is 8th Duncan is 2nd Jordan. I could see SPur fan applauding that list because it does seem to hold up close to the eye test ...
Karl Malone 4th!!!!
Kobe ranks relatively poorly in advanced metrics compared to other all-time greats, but the article is over-relying on Win Shares, an iffy stat, tbh..
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