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  1. #526
    Breaker of Derps RandomGuy's Avatar
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    Your absolutist logic is what is fallacious. Is a jury or a judge inherently evil when rendering a guilty verdict?
    Your reasoning is entirely fallacious. The answer is no.

    Is it possible for a judge or a jury to render a punishment that is itself immoral? Yes or no will do, sophist.

  2. #527
    Corpus Christi Spurs Fan Phenomanul's Avatar
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    Still not quite there.

    I don't know how this universe came into existence. What I believe is that at t=0, something happened. A 'big-bang' explosion is a reasonable conclusion based on observing the expanding nature of our universe. I don't know how the 'big-bang' itself because I am not an expert in the field of cosmology. From what I have read, a lot of the equations that govern our universe breakdown in the absence of spacetime. I assume that the people who study it have some reasonable theories that fit the available evidence, and I am willing to accept those theories as being tentatively true, since I have no reason to believe otherwise. I believe science may eventually answer the question.

    Blake will have to fill in the blank for himself.

    "something from nothing" is a meaningless construct of your own, useful for your strawman, but really useless in scientific terms. "nothing" is a very, very slippery thing to attempt to define.

    NO. Nothing IS nothing. Literally nothing.

    Before t=0

    None of our universe's matter existed.
    Space did not exist

    After t=0

    ALL OF IT existed.

    It's not a strawman at all. It's a concept that "breaks" naturalism because it doesn't fit within its law-based framework. That's why you seem (and unless you state otherwise cause your answer above certainly points to it) you keep wanting to avoid the ramifications of this naturalistic paradox as it pertains to naturalism itself.

    My belief system doesn't have that paradox at all. It defines what happened at t=0, defines the action/cause and defines the reaction/effect.

  3. #528
    Breaker of Derps RandomGuy's Avatar
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    Thou shalt not see thy brother's ox or his sheep go astray, and hide thyself from them: thou shalt in any case bring them again unto thy brother. 2And if thy brother be not nigh unto thee, or if thou know him not, then thou shalt bring it unto thine own house, and it shall be with thee until thy brother seek after it, and thou shalt restore it to him again. 3In like manner shalt thou do with his ass; and so shalt thou do with his raiment; and with all lost thing of thy brother's, which he hath lost, and thou hast found, shalt thou do likewise: thou mayest not hide thyself. 4Thou shalt not see thy brother's ass or his ox fall down by the way, and hide thyself from them: thou shalt surely help him to lift them up again.

    5The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the LORD thy God.

    6If a bird's nest chance to be before thee in the way in any tree, or on the ground, whether they be young ones, or eggs, and the dam sitting upon the young, or upon the eggs, thou shalt not take the dam with the young: 7But thou shalt in any wise let the dam go, and take the young to thee; that it may be well with thee, and that thou mayest prolong thy days.

    8When thou buildest a new house, then thou shalt make a battlement for thy roof, that thou bring not blood upon thine house, if any man fall from thence.

    9Thou shalt not sow thy vineyard with divers seeds: lest the fruit of thy seed which thou hast sown, and the fruit of thy vineyard, be defiled.

    10Thou shalt not plow with an ox and an ass together.

    11Thou shalt not wear a garment of divers sorts, as of woollen and linen together.

    12Thou shalt make thee fringes upon the four quarters of thy vesture, wherewith thou coverest thyself
    I don't "own other people" in there.

    Why is that?

    Either the God who "inspired" the bible doesn't think that owning people is a bad thing, worthy of a simple "shalt not" like so many other minor transgressions, or the bible was simply written by humans who didn't think that owning other people was immoral.

  4. #529
    Corpus Christi Spurs Fan Phenomanul's Avatar
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    Your reasoning is entirely fallacious. The answer is no.

    Is it possible for a judge or a jury to render a punishment that is itself immoral? Yes or no will do, sophist.
    Yes it happens all the time.

    Let's get specific to drive the point home.

    Adolph Hitler, Jack-the-Ripper, The Boston Strangler, Jeffrey Dahmer... take your pick. Their actions all morally reprehensible.

    So if you were the judge of a trial held to render justice over them, would a guilty verdict make you inherently evil?

    You suggested that when GOD renders his Judgement over sinful humans that somehow HE is evil for rendering exactly what the law demands - death.

  5. #530
    Corpus Christi Spurs Fan Phenomanul's Avatar
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    I don't "own other people" in there.

    Why is that?

    Either the God who "inspired" the bible doesn't think that owning people is a bad thing, worthy of a simple "shalt not" like so many other minor transgressions, or the bible was simply written by humans who didn't think that owning other people was immoral.
    What part of none of that is applicable under the New Covenant do you not get? Wait. You don't want to "understand it" cause it doesn't suit your contrived narrative that claims that Christianity endorses slavery.

  6. #531
    Breaker of Derps RandomGuy's Avatar
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    NO. Nothing IS nothing. Literally nothing.

    Before t=0

    None of our universe's matter existed.
    Space did not exist

    After t=0

    ALL OF IT existed.

    It's not a strawman at all. It's a concept that "breaks" naturalism because it doesn't fit within its law-based framework. That's why you seem (and unless you state otherwise cause your answer above certainly points to it) you keep wanting to avoid the ramifications of this naturalistic paradox as it pertains to naturalism itself.

    My belief system doesn't have that paradox at all. It defines what happened at t=0, defines the action/cause and defines the reaction/effect.
    (sighs)

    Ok, fine, you want to keep hammering away at what I think is a strawman, then it is up to you to prove it is accurate. You claim this is an accurate view of the current understanding of cosmology, you accept yet another burden of proof.

    Show any scientific paper, or article summary that states, that "no matter existed before the big bang". I am always willing to learn.

  7. #532
    Corpus Christi Spurs Fan Phenomanul's Avatar
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    As I've stated repeatedly Evolution doesn't answer the Origins of Life question. Many Evolutionary adherents, however, believe that naturalistic origins are not only possible but are a proven fact. YET there is no evidence for life coming from non-life. Many famous experiments purportedly claiming the creation of amino acids (precursor genetic nucleotides) seem to gloss over one important element: chiefly, that their interference/direction in any proposed series of chemical reactions is tantamount to taking a 'designer role'. In other words, all they've managed to support is that the creation of even the smallest of life's molecules requires a designer --> a Creator. But apparently no one else is able to see past the slight of hand.
    So Blake ran away from this... by throwing some sarcasm at it....?

    Ummmmm... ok.

    THIS is ultimately why it's all an impasse in world views...

  8. #533
    The Boognish FuzzyLumpkins's Avatar
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    I don't think it's ok. The New Covenant rises above it. But keep spinning.
    Pick and choose away sophist.

  9. #534
    Corpus Christi Spurs Fan Phenomanul's Avatar
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    (sighs)

    Ok, fine, you want to keep hammering away at what I think is a strawman, then it is up to you to prove it is accurate. You claim this is an accurate view of the current understanding of cosmology, you accept yet another burden of proof.

    Show any scientific paper, or article summary that states, that "no matter existed before the big bang". I am always willing to learn.
    That is the implication of the asymptotic nature of a singularity.

  10. #535
    Breaker of Derps RandomGuy's Avatar
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    What part of none of that is applicable under the New Covenant do you not get? Wait. You don't want to "understand it" cause it doesn't suit your contrived narrative that claims that Christianity endorses slavery.
    I specifically asked you for a new testament quote. Go ahead, I want to know what the new covenant has to say about slavery, specifically.

  11. #536
    Breaker of Derps RandomGuy's Avatar
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    Yes it happens all the time.

    Let's get specific to drive the point home.

    Adolph Hitler, Jack-the-Ripper, The Boston Strangler, Jeffrey Dahmer... take your pick. Their actions all morally reprehensible.

    So if you were the judge of a trial held to render justice over them, would a guilty verdict make you inherently evil?

    You suggested that when GOD renders his Judgement over sinful humans that somehow HE is evil for rendering exactly what the law demands - death.
    So it is possible for a jury to sentence someone to infinite torture, and that to be immoral?

    Assuming you accept torture is evil. Is torture evil?

  12. #537
    Corpus Christi Spurs Fan Phenomanul's Avatar
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    Pick and choose away sophist.
    It's not picking and choosing.

    It's an understanding of the context.

    Prior to the 19th amendment women couldn't vote. Afterwards they could.

    If you said that women today were bound to the original language of the cons ution then they wouldn't be allowed to vote.

    The 19th amendment allows them to.

    LIKEWISE, the New Covenant supplants many things from the Old Covenant because it is a major amendment.

    Have you found new evidence that supports your premise that Constantine reinvented Christianity...?

  13. #538
    The Boognish FuzzyLumpkins's Avatar
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    NO. Nothing IS nothing. Literally nothing.

    Before t=0

    None of our universe's matter existed.
    Space did not exist

    After t=0

    ALL OF IT existed.

    It's not a strawman at all. It's a concept that "breaks" naturalism because it doesn't fit within its law-based framework. That's why you seem (and unless you state otherwise cause your answer above certainly points to it) you keep wanting to avoid the ramifications of this naturalistic paradox as it pertains to naturalism itself.

    My belief system doesn't have that paradox at all. It defines what happened at t=0, defines the action/cause and defines the reaction/effect.
    I brought up Euler's topology where 0 and inf were linked with bilateral symmetry and two axis. The one we see that is in singular proportions of 1 and the other along the square root of i or the complex conjugate as mathematicians call it.

    In fact when you do projections in reality that work as evidenced by atomic and electrical engineering you start seeing circular behavior as ratios of pi are the solutions. That is what is real and how real things actually behave.

    Straight lines with easily defined starting points sure are easy to figure but occam's razor is a lie and in reality a crutch for simpletons.

  14. #539
    Breaker of Derps RandomGuy's Avatar
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    Proof #13 - Take a look at slavery
    Here are ten passages from the Bible that clearly demonstrate God's position on slavery:

    Genesis chapter 17, verse 12:

    And he that is eight days old shall be cir cised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed. He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be cir cised.
    In this passage God understands that people buy other people and, quite obviously, is comfortable with the concept. God wants slaves cir cised in the same way as non-slaves.
    Exodus chapter 12 verse 43:

    The Lord said to Moses and Aaron, "These are the regulations for the Passover: No foreigner is to eat of it. Any slave you have bought may eat of it after you have cir cised him, but a temporary resident and a hired worker may not eat of it.
    God again shows that he is completely comfortable with the concept of slavery and singles out slaves for special treatment.
    Exodus Chapter 21, verse 1:

    Now these are the ordinances which you shall set before them. When you buy a Hebrew slave, he shall serve six years, and in the seventh he shall go out free, for nothing. If he comes in single, he shall go out single; if he comes in married, then his wife shall go out with him. If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the wife and her children shall be her master's and he shall go out alone. But if the slave plainly says, 'I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free,' then his master shall bring him to God, and he shall bring him to the door or the doorpost; and his master shall bore his ear through with an awl; and he shall serve him for life.

    Here God describes how to become a slave for life, and shows that it is completely acceptable to separate slaves from their families. God also shows that he completely endorses the branding of slaves through mutilation.
    Exodus Chapter 21, verse 20:

    If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property.
    Not only does God condone slavery, but he is also completely comfortable with the concept of beating your slaves, as long as you don't kill them.
    Exodus Chapter 21, verse 32:

    If the bull gores a male or female slave, the owner must pay thirty shekels of silver to the master of the slave, and the bull must be stoned.

    Not only does God condone slavery, but here God places a value on slaves -- 30 shekels of silver. Note that God is not sophisticated enough to understand the concept of inflation. It is now 3,000 years later, and a gored slave is still worth 30 shekels of silver according to God's word.

    Leviticus Chapter 22, verse 10:

    No one outside a priest's family may eat the sacred offering, nor may the guest of a priest or his hired worker eat it. But if a priest buys a slave with money, or if a slave is born in his household, that slave may eat his food.

    Here God shows that the children of slaves are slaves themselves, and that he is completely happy with that concept.
    Leviticus Chapter 25, verse 44:

    Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. You can will them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.

    Here God states where you may purchase your slaves, and clearly specifies that slaves are property to be bought, sold and handed down.
    Luke, Chapter 7, verse 2:

    Now a centurion had a slave who was dear to him, who was sick and at the point of death. When he heard of Jesus, he sent to him elders of the Jews, asking him to come and heal his slave. And when they came to Jesus, they besought him earnestly, saying, "He is worthy to have you do this for him, for he loves our nation, and he built us our synagogue." And Jesus went with them. When he was not far from the house, the centurion sent friends to him, saying to him, "Lord, do not trouble yourself, for I am not worthy to have you come under my roof; therefore I did not presume to come to you. But say the word, and let my servant be healed. For I am a man set under authority, with soldiers under me: and I say to one, 'Go,' and he goes; and to another, 'Come,' and he comes; and to my slave, 'Do this,' and he does it." When Jesus heard this he marveled at him, and turned and said to the mul ude that followed him, "I tell you, not even in Israel have I found such faith." And when those who had been sent returned to the house, they found the slave well.

    Here Jesus shows that he is completely comfortable with the concept of slavery. Jesus heals the slave without any thought of freeing the slave or admonishing the slave's owner.
    Colossians, chapter 3, verse 22:

    Slaves, obey in everything those who are your earthly masters, not with eyeservice, as men-pleasers, but in singleness of heart, fearing the Lord. Whatever your task, work heartily...
    Here God shows that he is in complete acceptance of a slave's position, and encourages slaves to work hard. This sentiment is repeated in us, chapter 2 verse 9:

    Bid slaves to be submissive to their masters and to give satisfaction in every respect; they are not to be refractory, nor to pilfer, but to show entire and true fidelity.
    Once again God shows that he is quite enamored of slavery.

    God loves slavery

    If the Bible is written by God, and these are the words of the Lord, then you can come to only one possible conclusion: God is an impressive advocate of slavery and is fully supportive of the concept.


    As you can see, these slavery passages present us with an immense contradiction:

    On the one hand, we all know that slavery is an outrage and a moral abomination. As a result, slavery is now completely illegal throughout the developed world.
    On the other hand, most Christians claim that the Bible came from God. In God's Word, the "creator of the universe" states that slavery is perfectly acceptable. Beating your slaves is fine. Enslaving children is fine. Separating slave families is fine. According to the Bible, we should all be practicing slavery today.
    The intensity of this contradiction is remarkable. It shows us quite clearly that God is imaginary.

    If God were to exist, and if he were playing any role whatsoever on our planet, he would eliminate this connection between himself and slavery. There is no way that a loving God would allow himself to be perceived as condoning and encouraging slavery like this.

    Here is the thing that I would like to help you understand: You, as a rational human being, know that slavery is wrong. You know it. That is why every single developed nation in the world has made slavery completely illegal. Human beings make slavery illegal, in direct defiance of God's word, because we all know with complete certainty that slavery is an abomination.

    What does your common sense now tell you about a Bible that supports slavery in both the Old and the New Testaments? Given the fact that the Bible clearly condones slavery, your common sense should be telling you that God is imaginary.
    http://godisimaginary.com/i13.htm

    The bible spends a lot of ink on slavery. None of it to every say the simple words "owning other people is a bad thing".

    Fully consistent with the bible being made up by bronze age savages, yet inconsistent with the statement "God is perfect".

  15. #540
    The Boognish FuzzyLumpkins's Avatar
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    I specifically asked you for a new testament quote. Go ahead, I want to know what the new covenant has to say about slavery, specifically.
    Paul tells slaves to be obedient. Masters to be 'fair.'

  16. #541
    Corpus Christi Spurs Fan Phenomanul's Avatar
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    So it is possible for a jury to sentence someone to infinite torture, and that to be immoral?

    Assuming you accept torture is evil. Is torture evil?
    (sigh) You didn't answer the question... but I love how you always want to conclude the logical construct as you've narrowly defined it.

    Humans will receive whatever their actions deserve. Period. GOD is the judge.

    Again, you keep wanting to absolve them of the accountability of their choices. GOD's Justice cannot let those choices go unpunished. Eternal punishment is the equivalent footing in light of the fact that eternal salvation was rejected.

  17. #542
    Corpus Christi Spurs Fan Phenomanul's Avatar
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    Paul tells slaves to be obedient. Masters to be 'fair.'
    You don't believe anything Paul says. So why does it matter what he believes about the indentured servitude of his time...?

  18. #543
    Breaker of Derps RandomGuy's Avatar
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    Paul tells slaves to be obedient. Masters to be 'fair.'
    heh, see above. He say a heckuva lot more than that.

  19. #544
    Breaker of Derps RandomGuy's Avatar
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    (sigh) You didn't answer the question... but I love how you always want to conclude the logical construct as you've narrowly defined it.

    Humans will receive whatever their actions deserve. Period. GOD is the judge.

    Again, you keep wanting to absolve them of the accountability of their choices. GOD's Justice cannot let those choices go unpunished. Eternal punishment is the equivalent footing in light of the fact that eternal salvation was rejected.
    So if you were the judge of a trial held to render justice over them, would a guilty verdict make you inherently evil?
    Already answered, when you asked about judges juries. No. Didn't think you wanted it a second time.
    Last edited by RandomGuy; 01-20-2016 at 05:13 PM. Reason: desnarkification

  20. #545
    i hunt fenced animals clambake's Avatar
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    i love that "indentured servitude"

  21. #546
    Corpus Christi Spurs Fan Phenomanul's Avatar
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    I brought up Euler's topology where 0 and inf were linked with bilateral symmetry and two axis. The one we see that is in singular proportions of 1 and the other along the square root of i or the complex conjugate as mathematicians call it.

    In fact when you do projections in reality that work as evidenced by atomic and electrical engineering you start seeing circular behavior as ratios of pi are the solutions. That is what is real and how real things actually behave.

    Straight lines with easily defined starting points sure are easy to figure but occam's razor is a lie and in reality a crutch for simpletons.
    LOL

    The thing is you think I don't understand any of your statements. The truth is my thesis dissertation for my degree in Physics was applying Lorentz transformations to several mathematical constructs taking a Euclidean approach to quantum gravity.

    The problem is that nothing you've stated is relevant to the origins paradoxes. The amount of energy involved (inherently all the mass) blows up most equations. All of those equations are asymptotic by definition.

    Again.

    Prior to t=0, nothing existed.

    After t=0, everything existed.

  22. #547
    Damns (Given): 0 Blake's Avatar
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    LOL again redefining the framework of your view of GOD to make YOUR selective criteria 'stick'.

    It's explicitly stated in the Gospels...

    Oh... but wait, you chucked them out the window... threw out the baby with the bathwater.

    No matter what I say, you will counter with a non-biblical position because you don't believe any of it. In that context your framework is askew.
    Lol the biblical position is that slavery is ok.

    There's no way to spin that. But I've definitely seen better efforts than " but but the new covenant wipes out God being evil in the Old Testament

  23. #548
    Damns (Given): 0 Blake's Avatar
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    LOL

    The thing is you think I don't understand any of your statements. The truth is my thesis dissertation for my degree in Physics was applying Lorentz transformations to several mathematical constructs taking a Euclidean approach to quantum gravity.

    The problem is that nothing you've stated is relevant to the origins paradoxes. The amount of energy involved (inherently all the mass) blows up most equations. All of those equations are asymptotic by definition.

    Again.

    Prior to t=0, nothing existed.

    After t=0, everything existed.
    Spaghetti monster existed prior to t=0 tho. He's powerful like that.

  24. #549
    Breaker of Derps RandomGuy's Avatar
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    i love that "indentured servitude"
    Except it isn't indentured servitude. Provably so, using the text.

    Another weak tea apologetic, easily cast aside.

    (edit)



    Let a former evangelical deal with that. Dude was on the verge of the seminary, then came to his senses. Specific, permanent slavery was a feature of the bible's instructions.

  25. #550
    Damns (Given): 0 Blake's Avatar
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    So Blake ran away from this... by throwing some sarcasm at it....?

    Ummmmm... ok.

    THIS is ultimately why it's all an impasse in world views...
    No, I asked you a serious logical question. If the molecules requires a designer as you say, then who created God molecules

    Or is this one of those gentleman agreement things you made up where God doesn't adhere to his own rules

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