The Starting Unit

[TDomination]

How can Pop fix their offensive struggles?

this is probably our best defensive lineup but we have started off slow in too many games.

If we continue to do that against better teams, we won't have enough offensive power to come back

Should he change the lineup? Should he run more set plays for Danny green to get him going? Should Timmy get more opportunities? Or should it all be kawhi and LMA?

[Chinook]

Probably would be better with Mills instead of Parker. Issue is, with Manu back, Tony doesn't make sense on the bench either. I think the best thing they could do would be to run sets for Parker threes, as that would draw defenders farther from the paint. More sets for Green only works when he's hitting shots. When he is, then it's almost a crime not to give him the ball, but he's just too unreliable right now.

Obviously helps with Leonard and LMA don't start off shooting poorly too.

[ceperez]

Starting unit has been s*cking the entire season.

It's just very uncreative.

The problem is that the players don't seem to be making an effort to help each other out. When Splitter was there, he was the utility guy. They guy who would set the hard screens, make the necessary pass or fight for the garbage points.

Maybe the solution is for Tim to start taking up the Splitter role. He's not the man anymore, I rather have Aldrige take the medium range jumpers and post up his man. Duncan should just facilitate. Screen, pass and rebound.

[keeferob25]

How can Pop fix their offensive struggles?

this is probably our best defensive lineup but we have started off slow in too many games.

If we continue to do that against better teams, we won't have enough offensive power to come back

Should he change the lineup? Should he run more set plays for Danny green to get him going? Should Timmy get more opportunities? Or should it all be kawhi and LMA?

There's really no way around it...Parker is the weak link on BOTH sides and its not even up for discussion. His style of play just doesn't fit at all with this group. He's talked often about taking a step back and a reduced role and up until the new year I thought he was doing a terrific job and even looking competent on defense because you can see the effort vs years past. But since the new year he has reverted back to his old habits of ridiculously over-dribbling and needlessly probing as if this is the Steve Nash led Suns that NEEDS him to create everything. To me, he was the one I worried about the most in a reduced role because his style is of a dominating (the ball) nature and that doesn't work as well when needing to increase the role of a star (Kawhi) and integrate in order to feature another (Aldridge). While Duncan does hamper space a bit and limits the pace we can run at...his passing, screening, picks, o. rebounding and rim protecting on the other end all keep him able to be a net positive on both sides.

Another problem is that he just isn't a shooter. His midrange is very good when its going but his mentality still isn't that of a shooter. He is similar to Anderson...the offense is designed for guards to TAKE THE SHOT! Yet he and anderson CONSTANTLY dribble into the D which breaks everything Kawhi, Aldridge, Duncan or whoever works to get them. Its why Kawhi and Aldridge work best with Patty at point. He's a shooter, both in capability AND in mentality. Parker is capable of being a threat but he just has the now ingrained habit of dribbling and probing. Its the largest (but not only) part as to why the SL looks disjointed even after all of this time. Look at the fact that Duncan can look seamless with Patty or Manu...or Anderson even...ALdridge looks great with any of them as well...same as with Kawhi. But with Parker there's no real direction...its aimless/pointless movement just to see IF and WHEN he will decide to give it up...and too often its late in the shot clock forcing us into non-optimal possessions. Sounds like im placing ALL the blame on him and I don't mean it to be like that...but he is certainly the biggest reason and the second biggest a very distant (green lol).

[TDomination]

What worries me is that Pop will not make any major adjustments and just hope that the shots fall.

If it takes benching Parker, and putting Patty into the starting line-up to help our unit, i just don't see Pop doing that.

[spurs10]

We need Green to find his shot. Hopefully starting tonight!

[gambit1990]

let's start patty and simmons.

the regular season is for tinkering.

patty is faster, can shoot better, and has better court vision than parker. he also doesn't need the ball in his hands to still operate and be effective: patty makes better cuts and can set up behind the three like parker never could.

with patty starting, that would offset missing the only thing danny provides on offense: the three. i appreciate him as a player and him giving up money to stay but i feel like what he provides he could replicate off the bench.

i would starts simmons over green because he can do exactly what green can't: cut and handle the ball. he's our most athletic and explosive player. dunks aren't everything, but they sure are efficient. i'd rather someone dunk than someone attempt an awkward lay up. simmons is a better passer too. so not only can he cut and dunk, he can cut and make a smart play.

tp off the bench would have an easier time scoring against a teams' second unit. he also has chemistry with boris. patty has chemistry with la.

when teams double kawhi, patty can shoot, simmons can cut to the rim with explosiveness no one else on the team has.

Probably would be better with Mills instead of Parker. Issue is, with Manu back, Tony doesn't make sense on the bench either.

yeah. i wouldn't be against starting patty AND manu. but i would save starting manu until the playoff/late playoffs. just want him to be rested.

with patty starting, k mart could replace his scoring off the bench.

There's really no way around it...Parker is the weak link on BOTH sides and its not even up for discussion. His style of play just doesn't fit at all with this group. He's talked often about taking a step back and a reduced role and up until the new year I thought he was doing a terrific job and even looking competent on defense because you can see the effort vs years past. But since the new year he has reverted back to his old habits of ridiculously over-dribbling and needlessly probing as if this is the Steve Nash led Suns that NEEDS him to create everything. To me, he was the one I worried about the most in a reduced role because his style is of a dominating (the ball) nature and that doesn't work as well when needing to increase the role of a star (Kawhi) and integrate in order to feature another (Aldridge). While Duncan does hamper space a bit and limits the pace we can run at...his passing, screening, picks, o. rebounding and rim protecting on the other end all keep him able to be a net positive on both sides.

THANK YOU! idk how SO many other posters on this forum here watch the same games and see don't see this. it really boggles my mind. idk what it's gonna take for people to snap outta it.

the ball moves more and he's aged worse than duncan and ginobili. duncan can still play d and ginobili is still the best passer in the league... parker's greatest talent was his speed. he was a scorer, not a shooter or one with court vision. anecdotal, but i feel like this season he's missed some easy lay ups. his step has been lost imo.

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=255957

[Keepin' it real]

Starting unit has been s*cking the entire season.

True that. A crappy 53-10 record ... They really suck.

[RD2191]

I just feel like this team has no iden y on the offensive side of the ball.

[RD2191]

We need Green to find his shot. Hopefully starting tonight!

Bruh Green is done for this season imo. He isn't going to magically find his shot just before the playoffs imo.

[SAGirl]

I think TD cramps spacing. You don't agree fine. It's a factor in both LMA and Kawhi getting doubled inside or not being able to get to the basket. Tony is the second factor. Lately he has been pushed to play off the ball more, but that is not his game. He will still default to dribble dribble when things break down.

They are very slow as well which makes them easier to defend and very predictable. I don't think you can do anything at this point. It is due to two things: fit and personnel.

The playoffs are a different monster and hopefully Pop has wrinkles to throw in his bag of tricks.

[coachmac87]

I'm not try to start a player fan debate and I'm not on any particular players nuts..but Tony Parker is to blame.

He's just not a great passer and his court vision is suspect when setting up defenses to find teammates other shots. He's also not a good catch and shoot type of player unless it's a corner 3. IMO he's the Spur that's struggled with his role the most.

He's also never been a great ball handler and heavily relied on his speed WITH the ball

[Chinook]

Player-fan debates, you say? It's gotta be Kawhi's fault. #LMA4Evar

[SpursforSix]

I think the best thing they could do would be to run sets for Parker threes

wtf

[sasaint]

There's really no way around it...Parker is the weak link on BOTH sides and its not even up for discussion. His style of play just doesn't fit at all with this group. He's talked often about taking a step back and a reduced role and up until the new year I thought he was doing a terrific job and even looking competent on defense because you can see the effort vs years past. But since the new year he has reverted back to his old habits of ridiculously over-dribbling and needlessly probing as if this is the Steve Nash led Suns that NEEDS him to create everything. To me, he was the one I worried about the most in a reduced role because his style is of a dominating (the ball) nature and that doesn't work as well when needing to increase the role of a star (Kawhi) and integrate in order to feature another (Aldridge). While Duncan does hamper space a bit and limits the pace we can run at...his passing, screening, picks, o. rebounding and rim protecting on the other end all keep him able to be a net positive on both sides.

Another problem is that he just isn't a shooter. His midrange is very good when its going but his mentality still isn't that of a shooter. He is similar to Anderson...the offense is designed for guards to TAKE THE SHOT! Yet he and anderson CONSTANTLY dribble into the D which breaks everything Kawhi, Aldridge, Duncan or whoever works to get them. Its why Kawhi and Aldridge work best with Patty at point. He's a shooter, both in capability AND in mentality. Parker is capable of being a threat but he just has the now ingrained habit of dribbling and probing. Its the largest (but not only) part as to why the SL looks disjointed even after all of this time. Look at the fact that Duncan can look seamless with Patty or Manu...or Anderson even...ALdridge looks great with any of them as well...same as with Kawhi. But with Parker there's no real direction...its aimless/pointless movement just to see IF and WHEN he will decide to give it up...and too often its late in the shot clock forcing us into non-optimal possessions. Sounds like im placing ALL the blame on him and I don't mean it to be like that...but he is certainly the biggest reason and the second biggest a very distant (green lol).

I know that fans are focused on this season. Next season, however, Tony is on the payroll for like $14MM when we really need to rebuild.

[SpursforSix]

I know that fans are focused on this season. Next season, however, Tony is on the payroll for like $14MM when we really need to rebuild.

they'll be plenty of time to about that in the summer

[coachmac87]

Player-fan debates, you say? It's gotta be Kawhi's fault. #LMA4Evar

Lmao Stop it bruh

[ceperez]

I think TD cramps spacing. You don't agree fine. It's a factor in both LMA and Kawhi getting doubled inside or not being able to get to the basket. Tony is the second factor. Lately he has been pushed to play off the ball more, but that is not his game. He will still default to dribble dribble when things break down.

They are very slow as well which makes them easier to defend and very predictable. I don't think you can do anything at this point. It is due to two things: fit and personnel.

The playoffs are a different monster and hopefully Pop has wrinkles to throw in his bag of tricks.

I agree here, it is a very slow team that has a very predictable offense.

Pacers gave them fits because they doubled teamed Parker and made it difficult for him to pass to the open man (usually Aldridge).

[TheGreatYacht]

Run more sets for Green? No. He's one of the reasons why the team struggles to score. His defense this season is highly overrated around here by casuals, and he's useless on the other end. He ain't even the second best 3pt shooter behind Kawhi, might drop even more when KMart comes

Ive also noticed that the team tends to use Aldridge like a shooting guard in the first quarter. Every shot he takes ends up being from 2 feet in front of the 3pt line. Post him up or get him closer to the rim. Enough of that Dirk .

TD/Parker 2 man game also needs to stop. Only one that should be setting picks for Parker is Aldridge.

[EVAY]

The starting unit really is so much slower on offense, and Tim is a major part of that slowness. In situations that are not transitions, (i.e., when the other team has scored and we are coming up court in a normal offensive set), it takes a very long time for the players to get into their positions, particularly Tim. Secondly, because the Spursian "beautiful ball" scoring does not have a way of spotlighting Kawhi, and the team has been trying to spotlight Kawhi (to great effect for the scores, I might add), the ball movement of the last couple of years has given way to more iso plays for both Kawhi and Aldridge.

Both of those factors contribute to slow down of the offense. Moreover, when the Spurs set up their offense, everybody on the planet knows where TP is going to dribble, how the rest of the team is going to move while he dribbles, and where he is likeliest to pass the ball out of the dribble. This has been going on for at least the last two years, and as it gets worse, Tony has nowhere to go with the ball because every passing lane is cut off. So he dribbles and dribbles, looking for 'openings' and finding none.

It would be really nice to see some different offensive sets, but I don't know that that is going to happen. What makes us successful is that, even though we are slow and everyone knows what we are going to do, we still do it better than (almost) anyone else, and we wear teams down when our bench comes in with a frenetic pace and no set offensive sets, and it seems to work well in putting other teams on their heels.

If the starters did what the second team does it wouldn't work because they don't have the personnel for it, and because teams would adjust to what they do if it happened all the time.

I think the predictability (and pace) of the first team and the lack of predictability (and different pace) of the second team has been hugely successful for us in the regular season, but over a playoff series, that is a lot easier to figure out, and it will be considerably tougher to win. Hope we do, though.

[HarlemHeat37]

FYI, RPM rankings for starting players at their respective positions:

Parker- #21
Green- #8
Kawhi- #1
Aldridge- #28
Duncan- #5

RPM has it's flaws, of course, and you can explain the low rankings, too, but just posting it as food for thought..

The offensive struggles aren't by design, of course, but the ugly, slow-paced, ISO-oriented style seemingly is..Parker/Leonard/Aldridge are carrying the load, with Duncan and Green playing peripheral roles as finishers(3-point finisher, in DG's case)..without relying on ball movement and distribution of scoring, you're going to have ugly results when one of Kawhi/Aldridge/Parker isn't producing..that's just the Spurs' offense, at this point..

Defensive rankings at their positions in RPM, FYI:

Green: #2
Kawhi: #1
Duncan: #1

Pop is riding with Kawhi/DG/Duncan as his defensive core on a slow-paced, defense-first team..I've made my skepticism of the style of play clear since the beginning of the season(in my 40+ page Aldridge thread), but can't really argue with the results, so far..

[Agloco]

Start Manu in place of Parker tbh.

[spursistan]

Man, I'm just tired of these drought/deluge stretches by Danny, tbh..he is shooting 31%, 0.83% from 3PT in March ..

[ceperez]

The starting unit really is so much slower on offense, and Tim is a major part of that slowness. In situations that are not transitions, (i.e., when the other team has scored and we are coming up court in a normal offensive set), it takes a very long time for the players to get into their positions, particularly Tim. Secondly, because the Spursian "beautiful ball" scoring does not have a way of spotlighting Kawhi, and the team has been trying to spotlight Kawhi (to great effect for the scores, I might add), the ball movement of the last couple of years has given way to more iso plays for both Kawhi and Aldridge.

Both of those factors contribute to slow down of the offense. Moreover, when the Spurs set up their offense, everybody on the planet knows where TP is going to dribble, how the rest of the team is going to move while he dribbles, and where he is likeliest to pass the ball out of the dribble. This has been going on for at least the last two years, and as it gets worse, Tony has nowhere to go with the ball because every passing lane is cut off. So he dribbles and dribbles, looking for 'openings' and finding none.

It would be really nice to see some different offensive sets, but I don't know that that is going to happen. What makes us successful is that, even though we are slow and everyone knows what we are going to do, we still do it better than (almost) anyone else, and we wear teams down when our bench comes in with a frenetic pace and no set offensive sets, and it seems to work well in putting other teams on their heels.

If the starters did what the second team does it wouldn't work because they don't have the personnel for it, and because teams would adjust to what they do if it happened all the time.

I think the predictability (and pace) of the first team and the lack of predictability (and different pace) of the second team has been hugely successful for us in the regular season, but over a playoff series, that is a lot easier to figure out, and it will be considerably tougher to win. Hope we do, though.

Yes, it is predictable however it is likely that Pop has a different set of plays in the playoffs. Why bother to show one's hand in the regular season? All these games are all being recorded and what you really want is reveal your *special* playbook when it is absolutely necessary.

What I did not like about the game against the Pacers is why the Spurs bothered to play all its starters advanced minutes. Talk about BS from the coach..

[Chinook]

wtf

Dude's a legit shooter from three. He needs to become more willing to take those, and more importantly, defenses have to become more inclined to guard him out there. Especially if Tim or another center plays next to LMA, spacing is too important for Green to be the only floor-spacer in the SL (and Leonard doesn't count, as stars can't space the floor for themselves).