Lakers: Who do we want: Simmons or Ingram?

[DPG21920]

Ya, but KL was drafted while SA was doing well and LA on the downturn. You can't discount him because he's a 24 year old stud.

[Killakobe81]

Ya, but KL was drafted while SA was doing well and LA on the downturn. You can't discount him because he's a 24 year old stud.

Kiwi is almost 5 years older than the players he is being compared to EXCEPT clarkson/nance ...so yes I can. And I included him on the why you guys are better list ...

Russ was 19 years old when drafted #2 Kiwi at 19 wasnt even on the national radar that is why you need to show patience. Spurs did deeps wants to make sweeping conclusions.

[Thebesteva]

Lakers recent drafts would be fine in a non corrosive environment. The retirement poison that the Buss family pushed on the team for the last 3 years really stunted the growth of the franchise and young players. Bringing in that many head coaches in a short period of time was too disruptive. Even a bad head coach is better than 3 or 4 decent ones when you keep switching loyalties and systems every few months.

A lot of it stems from inexperience and Kobe not retiring. It's not a coincedence that some of these positive things that have been occuring are due to his retirement hence why I been dying in anticipation for Kobe to retire. I knew why the drain was clogged.

Do I think the Lakers are "back"? no...but they're finally beginning a new era. midnightpulp had a really great point a few years ago when he said the Lakers problem was they began to rely so much on just bringing a piece to surround either Kobe or Shaq that they forgot how to build as a franchise from scratch. I really do believe Mitch K is highly overrated.

[Killakobe81]

A lot of it stems from inexperience and Kobe not retiring. It's not a coincedence that some of these positive things that have been occuring are due to his retirement hence why I been dying in anticipation for Kobe to retire. I knew why the drain was clogged.

Do I think the Lakers are "back"? no...but they're finally beginning a new era. midnightpulp had a really great point a few years ago when he said the Lakers problem was they began to rely so much on just bringing a piece to surround either Kobe or Shaq that they forgot how to build as a franchise from scratch. I really do believe Mitch K is highly overrated.

1. Agree with Mid on what the problem was ...
2. Disagree on the forgot ...as premise.
3. are the Cavs some great franchise because they drafted LeBron filled their roster with spare parts and made the ECF? Were the cavs brilliant because they won the lotto 3 times in 6 years and flipped wiggins for Love drafted Kyrie and Lebron came back home?

This league is about:
1. Talent
2. Coaching
3. Management
In that order ...

you need a great coach to maximize the talent on your roster and the help of the Front office to acquire said talent. But it's much easier to coach and to build when you have LeBron, steph, durant, Westbrook, Love, Kyrie etc. All of those guys were lotto picks and most in the top 5.

none of the 4 teams still playing were known for building contenders from scratch
but yet here they are ...

[ambchang]

ROY votes as valid criteria ...

After one year, yeah, that's pretty much the only criteria at this point.

nicknames like a bottom tier poster

Not sure what you mean by that.

Captain Obvious statements "I question an organization ..." no , Laker fans question the we have done lately starting with the horrid coaching choices.

And?

Besides trying to draw me in a debate what great insight did we gain from the above?

It's not really an insight, just a reminder of how bad the Lakers are.

and dont think I didnt get the mention of the player you stick in every conversation btw

You can interpret it any way you want, but the sexual harassment of some 68-year old lady and the snitch belongs in the conversation as well. You can choose to focus on just one player, but I like to take a more holistic view.

Injuries are besides the point ...
the point is you dont judge a draft one year in ..

After one year, I judge by what we see. Sure, if every single player in the draft sans D'bust die in 57 separate accidents, then D'bust would be the best player in the draft, so I guess you can say you can ignore injuries.

I would bet a paycheck that KAT will be better than Porzy who i think will be injury prone but I have no way of knowing that for sure, one year in. Maybe Porzy is Dirk 2.0.

I would too. And I would bet a paycheck that both will be better than D'Bust in 5 years.

Point is curry when drafted no one thought he would win back2bck MVP's which is why only fools judge drafts definitively after the first year ...
Not saying you cant make some initial judgments ...I do claim victory that I was right about KAT but I have no idea if he will be as good as I think he will be.

So you are on the fence, with no commitment, and your great insight is "I can't tell".

People see glimpses of greatness in Curry after year 1, with his scoring average and great shooting. He was still suspect on ball-handling and defense, but he worked hard on the former and he is out of this world good on offense now. his defense though, is only serviceable at this point.

[JamStone]

I think coaching is overrated, at that goes for most professional sports. I think when you have a really bad coach, it shows. But even an average or slightly average coach with a lot of talent can generally get the job done, at least getting to a certain high level. Maybe you need a great coach sometimes to put a team over the top. But when the talent is there, coaches like Rivers and Spoelstra can win championships, a clueless nobody like Luke Walton can set a record pace with the Warriors when Kerr was out. Talent is so far ahead of coaching in terms of importance, it's funny.

Winning in the NBA (and in most professional sports) is almost always predominately dependent on elite talent. But I would also say the talent evaluation and acquisition for the supporting cast is more important than coaching as well. That's where personnel decision making by the GM / coach / front office becomes more crucial than coaching in my opinion. Getting the right pieces to surround that elite talent that is complements the elite talent and fits what the coach / system calls for is vital for success. Golden State is a prime example of that. In recent years, the Miami Heat did that as well as any team surrounding LeBron and Wade with three point shooting and front court defense. The Spurs have done it for years. Not just having elite talent, but having the right kind of mid-level talent that helps make it easier for that elite talent can make a huge impact on team success. And again, I believe it's more important than coaching.

[Killakobe81]

I think coaching is overrated, at that goes for most professional sports. I think when you have a really bad coach, it shows. But even an average or slightly average coach with a lot of talent can generally get the job done, at least getting to a certain high level. Maybe you need a great coach sometimes to put a team over the top. But when the talent is there, coaches like Rivers and Spoelstra can win championships, a clueless nobody like Luke Walton can set a record pace with the Warriors when Kerr was out. Talent is so far ahead of coaching in terms of importance, it's funny.

Winning in the NBA (and in most professional sports) is almost always predominately dependent on elite talent. But I would also say the talent evaluation and acquisition for the supporting cast is more important than coaching as well. That's where personnel decision making by the GM / coach / front office becomes more crucial than coaching in my opinion. Getting the right pieces to surround that elite talent that is complements the elite talent and fits what the coach / system calls for is vital for success. Golden State is a prime example of that. In recent years, the Miami Heat did that as well as any team surrounding LeBron and Wade with three point shooting and front court defense. The Spurs have done it for years. Not just having elite talent, but having the right kind of mid-level talent that helps make it easier for that elite talent can make a huge impact on team success. And again, I believe it's more important than coaching.

1. I agree talent wins out no doubt.
2. I also agree having the right mid level talent is also very important.
3. But if you lock in on your point about bad coaching ...bad coaching can undermine the talent and the front-office. Morey may be overrated but he has assembled good talent so did OKC ...but Brooks and McHale were not good enough coaches to fully realize that talent.
4. the reason why I think coaching is core critical we all know Lebron pretty much built the Cavs team that is steamrolling the East and even if you want to say the FO provided the right culture Lue has been a upgrade to Blatt who although a smart coach was overmatched.
5. spo is not a bad coach tbh he is not Pop/RC/Kerr but he is better than most
6. The work brad Stevens has done in Boston or RC in Dallas when they are not stacked tells me the value that elite coaching has especially compared the clowns in La the past few years.
7. Luke was following Kerr's blue-print ... plus they had talent that is why state still won ...Plus if it was just the talent why did Mark Jackson fail?

[Killakobe81]

After one year, yeah, that's pretty much the only criteria at this point.



Not sure what you mean by that.



And?



It's not really an insight, just a reminder of how bad the Lakers are.



You can interpret it any way you want, but the sexual harassment of some 68-year old lady and the snitch belongs in the conversation as well. You can choose to focus on just one player, but I like to take a more holistic view.



After one year, I judge by what we see. Sure, if every single player in the draft sans D'bust die in 57 separate accidents, then D'bust would be the best player in the draft, so I guess you can say you can ignore injuries.



I would too. And I would bet a paycheck that both will be better than D'Bust in 5 years.



So you are on the fence, with no commitment, and your great insight is "I can't tell".

People see glimpses of greatness in Curry after year 1, with his scoring average and great shooting. He was still suspect on ball-handling and defense, but he worked hard on the former and he is out of this world good on offense now. his defense though, is only serviceable at this point.

Seriously I dont even know where to start with all the fails ...
I meant using d'bust should be beneath you ....
but I forgot about the cliff you fell off

So let's just say you win for now (otherwise you wont stop) and I will bump this when you are wrong.

[leemajors]

1. I agree talent wins out no doubt.
2. I also agree having the right mid level talent is also very important.
3. But if you lock in on your point about bad coaching ...bad coaching can undermine the talent and the front-office. Morey may be overrated but he has assembled good talent so did OKC ...but Brooks and McHale were not good enough coaches to fully realize that talent.
4. the reason why I think coaching is core critical we all know Lebron pretty much built the Cavs team that is steamrolling the East and even if you want to say the FO provided the right culture Lue has been a upgrade to Blatt who although a smart coach was overmatched.
5. spo is not a bad coach tbh he is not Pop/RC/Kerr but he is better than most
6. The work brad Stevens has done in Boston or RC in Dallas when they are not stacked tells me the value that elite coaching has especially compared the clowns in La the past few years.
7. Luke was following Kerr's blue-print ... plus they had talent that is why state still won ...Plus if it was just the talent why did Mark Jackson fail?

If you ask Mark Jackson, he didn't! He set them up to succeed.

[DPG21920]

Sure when you have a Lebron or Duncan, you have a head start. But for all the teams that don't have them? You can still build very compe ive teams if not contenders. But the key is not about 1-3 year runs; where talent evaluation, drafting, cap management & player development come into play are for the Spurs of the world. To not only win les, but have a long period of sustained success (no one wins a le every year with free agency).

The Spurs have looked wildly different over the years, changed up their style yet continued to have playoff teams for 19 straight years because they did amazing in the draft, built smart teams, managed the cap well signed good fits (plus having Duncan/Manu/TP/Pop).

But in the long run, unless you have stars like Tim/Lebron that can carry any cast to a playoff, you need to consistently be good in the draft no matter your draft spot and find serviceable players for your system.

[DPG21920]

Having money (Spurs rarely paid luxury tax), high draft picks (look at Philly, MIN, CLE before Lebron bailed them out again - & SA hasn't picked inside of the top 20 but twice in 19 years) & other advantages (locale) doesn't guarantee anything. It give you a head start but look at some of the franchises and how bad they have been the past 1-5 years despite having all of the above.

[Killakobe81]

Sure when you have a Lebron or Duncan, you have a head start. But for all the teams that don't have them? You can still build very compe ive teams if not contenders. But the key is not about 1-3 year runs; where talent evaluation, drafting, cap management & player development come into play are for the Spurs of the world. To not only win les, but have a long period of sustained success (no one wins a le every year with free agency).

The Spurs have looked wildly different over the years, changed up their style yet continued to have playoff teams for 19 straight years because they did amazing in the draft, built smart teams, managed the cap well signed good fits (plus having Duncan/Manu/TP/Pop).

But in the long run, unless you have stars like Tim/Lebron that can carry any cast to a playoff, you need to consistently be good in the draft no matter your draft spot and find serviceable players for your system.

agree with most of this but if the end game is to win les ...give me a star first and foremost. I can find a decent coach. But if my team sucks or is mediocre I would rather have a great coach like Stevens or Pop over a great GM.

[Killakobe81]

Sure when you have a Lebron or Duncan, you have a head start. But for all the teams that don't have them? You can still build very compe ive teams if not contenders. But the key is not about 1-3 year runs; where talent evaluation, drafting, cap management & player development come into play are for the Spurs of the world. To not only win les, but have a long period of sustained success (no one wins a le every year with free agency).

The Spurs have looked wildly different over the years, changed up their style yet continued to have playoff teams for 19 straight years because they did amazing in the draft, built smart teams, managed the cap well signed good fits (plus having Duncan/Manu/TP/Pop).

But in the long run, unless you have stars like Tim/Lebron that can carry any cast to a playoff, you need to consistently be good in the draft no matter your draft spot and find serviceable players for your system.

Of course the spurs way is ideal ... they won 5 les dont miss playoffs etc.
Boston did it different made 3 finals in 4 years ...
Miami did it different they made 4 straight finals and won two ...

they aligned the star players and like Jam said built the pieces around those stars.
Spo and Doc are both overrated but 10 x better than:

Mark Jackson
McHale
Vogel
Mike Brown
Alvin Gentry
monty williams
Scott Brooks

and they won primarily because of elite talent and good coaching. I love riles and he mapped that out but we all know the bananna boat buddies planned that . Riles just took advantage.

[td4mvp2k]

Can't wait for the Lakers to draft Derrick Coleman 2.0.

naw their gettin the next michael beasley - simmons

[Thread]

You answered yourself already.

*David Robinson, Tim Duncan, Manu Ginobili, Tony Parker, Kawhi Leonard, Goran Dragic, Leandro Barbosa, Luis Scola, Tiago Splitter, George Hill, Corey Joseph etc...

I'll give you The Pile. I can't count Duncan because it was off the charter tank. The rest are pedestrian, or, via trade.

*"You" drove Robinson this||close to suicide before you tanked to get Duncan which saved Robinson from suicide.

[TDMVPDPOY]

simmons = exum = draft busts

[RD2191]

Simmons just looks like a bust.

[DPG21920]

I'll give you The Pile. I can't count Duncan because it was off the charter tank. The rest are pedestrian, or, via trade.

*"You" drove Robinson this||close to suicide before you tanked to get Duncan which saved Robinson from suicide.

You're an idiot. There was nothing via trade.

[DMC]

I'll give you The Pile. I can't count Duncan because it was off the charter tank. The rest are pedestrian, or, via trade.

*"You" drove Robinson this||close to suicide before you tanked to get Duncan which saved Robinson from suicide.

Robinson was soft. He'd never think of killing himself over the game. He wouldn't even defend himself.

You've tanked 3 times and have to show for it. We tanked once and got Tim Duncan. You're pretending you didn't mean Tim when I quoted you but "struck the mold" pretty much solidifies the fact you did. Now you're looking at a 28th and 57th overall pick and pretending those were as a result of tanking in years we didn't even miss the playoffs.

[DMC]

You're an idiot. There was nothing via trade.

He's talking about Kawhi and saying the rest of those guys are losers but he drafted Russell, Randle and this year another club goer I'm sure.

[Thread]

He's talking about Kawhi and saying the rest of those guys are losers but he drafted Russell, Randle and this year another club goer I'm sure.

Thank you.

[DMC]

Thank you.

Goran Dragic pushed our in a few years ago in the 2nd round. Barbosa is a solid player and could win a ring this season off the bench. Scola was part of the team that hung that brown coin around Tim's neck. George Hill got us Kawhi Leonard (you did draft Marc Gasol so that's something). We've drafted better than any team in the league, especially for a team that hasn't missed the playoffs in almost two decades. You can't deny that.

[DPG21920]

He's talking about Kawhi and saying the rest of those guys are losers but he drafted Russell, Randle and this year another club goer I'm sure.

I know what he meant, but he's an idiot. Kawhi wasn't traded to SA. Spurs traded for the pick and picked Kawhi. SA made the pick. He's trying to strip SA of the credit of doing the work in scouting/drafting Kawhi and that's not true. He's being an idiot.

[DMC]

Cubs has been on the rag today. Even Luva called him out on it and Cubs stormed off to the bathroom and slammed the door after putting dark sunglasses on and refusing to acknowledge anyone in the room.

[Thread]

Goran Dragic pushed our in a few years ago in the 2nd round. Barbosa is a solid player and could win a ring this season off the bench. Scola was part of the team that hung that brown coin around Tim's neck. George Hill got us Kawhi Leonard (you did draft Marc Gasol so that's something). We've drafted better than any team in the league, especially for a team that hasn't missed the playoffs in almost two decades. You can't deny that.

My ass. You drafted The PilePERIOD