OT: RIP GOAT ALI

[Silver&Black]

You really can't make the comparison between Vietnam and WWII.

Just said that women did their part in WWII. Plenty of women who went to work in naval shipyards across the country...yet I'm positive that every single one of them didn't agree with the war overseas. There were probably even some who thought that America hated them. They didn't get paid what a man did...and were often seen as inferior to men at the time. , some of their mothers probably didn't even have the right to vote.

You can't do the whole "This war was just...this war was unjust" thing. We've got 50-80 years now to reflect on whether or not the wars were "right or wrong" now. In short, we've got the benefit of hindsight. The average Joe in the sixties who couldn't even spell Vietnam much less find it on a map....he got drafted. And if he didn't break the law...he went to 'Nam. 50 years later it's easy to determine that those guys got the raw end of the deal. My sorrow doesn't lie with the guy who broke the law and went on to make millions of dollars by punching other people in the head. My sorrow lies with the kid who never got to see his 20th birthday.

[Thread]

?

I don't give a who Bail votes for or not. 99% of the time I can't stand Dale. We just happen to agree on this one issue. I also don't give a flying if you agree or disagree with me over Ali being a draft dodger. I've already stated my opinion on the matter. Countless men (both white and black) answered the call. I'm willing to bet that a lot of the people who got drafted (maybe even the majority of them) didn't agree with Vietnam War...but they still went anyways.

What pisses me off more than anything is you of all people tugging at the heartstrings of the other posters here. I hate racists You're not that guy. You're the same guy who starts a thread about how ugly Kobe's children are....the same guy who laughs at the death of kids who died in a tragic bonfire accident....the same guy who says if he buys the site misogyny will be encouraged not met with banning. (When spurraider and 100%Duncan got banned over Becky comments)

1. Making fun of dead kids = O.k. in your book
2. Misogyny = Encouraged
3. Thread being a racist = Borderline worst thing possible.

I just don't get it bruh. The area where you draw the line between allowed and taboo is shocking to me.

&

[Thread]

What exactly did the US of A need ali for?

To not be a coward, and a chicken .

[midnightpulp]

Wow, talk about a completely one-sided, strawman argument. Trump supporter here, I can almost confirm.

Not even close, Catboy. But anyone with even a cursory knowledge of history who reads it with an open mind would scoff at the simplistic idea that "Murka cause of all of world's problems " because they saw a PBS special about Guantanamo Bay.

[midnightpulp]

Just said that women did their part in WWII. Plenty of women who went to work in naval shipyards across the country...yet I'm positive that every single one of them didn't agree with the war overseas. There were probably even some who thought that America hated them. They didn't get paid what a man did...and were often seen as inferior to men at the time. , some of their mothers probably didn't even have the right to vote.

You can't do the whole "This war was just...this war was unjust" thing. We've got 50-80 years now to reflect on whether or not the wars were "right or wrong" now. In short, we've got the benefit of hindsight. The average Joe in the sixties who couldn't even spell Vietnam much less find it on a map....he got drafted. And if he didn't break the law...he went to 'Nam. 50 years later it's easy to determine that those guys got the raw end of the deal. My sorrow doesn't lie with the guy who broke the law and went on to make millions of dollars by punching other people in the head. My sorrow lies with the kid who never got to see his 20th birthday.

My point was there wasn't the same kind of motivation for the American public and the soldiers to back the Vietnam War effort since Vietnam wasn't really any kind of threat to the United States, so of course a 19 year old kid might dodge the draft here because he really doesn't know what he's fighting for. I can't demonize that mentality as "cowardly." Note: My dad and his brother were drafted into Vietnam. Also, my friend's dad was and another friend of mine's dad dodged it. I once asked my friend's dad (who knew the latter) what he thought about him dodging the draft. He said, "I don't blame him. Who the would want to go over there?" He was Purple Heart winner.

It was a war our hearts collectively as nation weren't in. But unlike some people who deride the soldiers who didn't dodge as "idiots," I think those soldiers can stand proud because, as I said, they fought on the right side and it was a noble cause (even if the cause wasn't really relevant to our interests, outside of domino theory logic). Ho Chi Minh wasn't some benevolent man of the people. Basically Stalin Jr., and people were fleeing the North when he seized power. About 800K fled from the North into the South at the start of the war, and another 2 million fled between 1975 and 1995. Yeah, socialist paradise.

[webshad]

You've nary room. Your Neal raped as well.

And did you see me defending Neal or Kirby or any other rapist? But you do.

So defending a rapist is good, but defending a "negro" who didn't want to fight a white man's war is bad.

Great moral compass you have.

[Ghazi]

Iran's hate for USA is entirely justified.

You had interference in Operation Ajax in 1953, then 25 years of an imposed dictator, then encouraging Saddam to wage a war that lasted 8 years, then sanctions for no reason and the entire media aligned against Iran... not to mention it's unconditional blowjobs for an usurper nation like Israel (although USA is pretty much blackmailed into supporting Israel since the entire CONGRESS is bought). Not to mention the USA threats of war constantly... although if the USA COULD'VE waged a war on Iran, they would've done so already. The intelligence now realizes it would be too costly and far from worth it.

There's plenty of reasons to think the USA is an imperialist aggressor.

[Thread]

My point was there wasn't the same kind of motivation for the American public and the soldiers to back the Vietnam War effort since Vietnam wasn't really any kind of threat to the United States, so of course a 19 year old kid might dodge the draft here because he really doesn't know what he's fighting for. I can't demonize that mentality as "cowardly." Note: My dad and his brother were drafted into Vietnam. Also, my friend's dad was and another friend of mine's dad dodged it. I once asked my friend's dad (who knew the latter) what he thought about him dodging the draft. He said, "I don't blame him. Who the would want to go over there?" He was Purple Heart winner.

It was a war our hearts collectively as nation weren't in. But unlike some people who deride the soldiers who didn't dodge as "idiots," I think those soldiers can stand proud because, as I said, they fought on the right side and it was a noble cause (even if the cause wasn't really relevant to our interests, outside of domino theory logic). Ho Chi Minh wasn't some benevolent man of the people. Basically Stalin Jr., and people were fleeing the North when he seized power. About 800K fled from the North into the South at the start of the war, and another 2 million fled between 1975 and 1995. Yeah, socialist paradise.

Well, we had to wait, Midst, had to wait to get LBJ out, and Nixon in. Then we could really descend on Vietnam. Before that JFK was linked by LBJ. Can't have JFK linked to anything bad except cavorting with Monroe. "We'll" accept that because it's Monroe and she was pretty. Anybody would cavort with her (cept that sexual Duncan). Once JFK was safe Media went after Vietnam with a vengeance, they'd wanted Nixon for years and they finally got him, exactly where they wanted him.

We're no more benevolent than the next asshole in the line. We let our sovereign suffer horribly in their streets at the hands of the Nazi's for years before we used the slopes attack on Pearl Harbor to jockey in and over.

[Thread]

Iran's hate for USA is entirely justified.

You had interference in Operation Ajax in 1953, then 25 years of an imposed dictator, then encouraging Saddam to wage a war that lasted 8 years, then sanctions for no reason and the entire media aligned against Iran... not to mention it's unconditional blowjobs for an usurper nation like Israel (although USA is pretty much blackmailed into supporting Israel since the entire CONGRESS is bought). Not to mention the USA threats of war constantly... although if the USA COULD'VE waged a war on Iran, they would've done so already. The intelligence now realizes it would be too costly and far from worth it.

There's plenty of reasons to think the USA is an imperialist aggressor.

Horse . Everything was honkey & dory for over 75 years. Gas was .15 to 25 cents per gallon. The Shah was our friend. We had his Northern border to keep an eye peeled on the Russians. Then we let him fall. And we've been against a stiff headwind ever since.

[Thread]

And did you see me defending Neal or Kirby or any other rapist? But you do.

So defending a rapist is good, but defending a "negro" who didn't want to fight a white man's war is bad.

Great moral compass you have.

I never defended Kobe's rape.

Clay is a draft dodging coward. His death doesn't change that fact.

[midnightpulp]

Iran's hate for USA is entirely justified.

You had interference in Operation Ajax in 1953, then 25 years of an imposed dictator, then encouraging Saddam to wage a war that lasted 8 years, then sanctions for no reason and the entire media aligned against Iran... not to mention it's unconditional blowjobs for an usurper nation like Israel (although USA is pretty much blackmailed into supporting Israel since the entire CONGRESS is bought). Not to mention the USA threats of war constantly... although if the USA COULD'VE waged a war on Iran, they would've done so already. The intelligence now realizes it would be too costly and far from worth it.

There's plenty of reasons to think the USA is an imperialist aggressor.

I never said it wasn't justified, but let's not forget who pulled the majority of the strings there. The UK, who set up shop with British Petroleum in Iran long before the United States ever cared about Iran, Israel, Palestine, and the Middle East. The UK also armed Saddam, had trade embargos against Iran in the run up to that war. They were also one of the few countries to sell Saddam chemical weapons. A British firm even built a in' chlorine factory in the country.

But yeah, all Murrica's fault.

[Ashy Larry]

RIP Ali , don't understand the hate towards this dude.

he basically told Mr. Charlie and Ms. Ann to go themselves and not "know his place." Dude gave up prime years to stand up to Whitey when many of Whitey's kids were sent to Canada or had money/political power to receive deferments to stay out of the war. If you were poor white trash or poor and black, you were headed to Nam. They say if he enlisted, he woulda been doing tours like Joe Louis did during WW2. I doubt it. Whitey loved Louis because he knew his place according to Honky McGee. They hated Ali and knowing the government who started Nam on a bull reason, would have sent Clay to the kill zone to get rid of that trouble maker.

Ali was a G.

[Ghazi]

Well Iran is not on friendly terms with the British either.

More or less if the USA wasn't allied with Israel and Britain the situation would be much different with Iran.
Iran has a mortal enemy in Israel.

[whitemamba]

I never said it wasn't justified, but let's not forget who pulled the majority of the strings there. The UK, who set up shop with British Petroleum in Iran long before the United States ever cared about Iran, Israel, Palestine, and the Middle East. The UK also armed Saddam, had trade embargos against Iran in the run up to that war. They were also one of the few countries to sell Saddam chemical weapons. A British firm even built a in' chlorine factory in the country.

But yeah, all Murrica's fault.

UK Armed Saddam? Lol it was Rumsfeld that was shaking his hand and pledging support. It was the US, stop trying to spin that .

[Ghazi]

the #1 world threat to peace is Israel , whose monetary influence controls pretty much all of American foreign politics.

[midnightpulp]

he basically told Mr. Charlie and Ms. Ann to go themselves and not "know his place." Dude gave up prime years to stand up to Whitey when many of Whitey's kids were sent to Canada or had money/political power to receive deferments to stay out of the war. If you were poor white trash or poor and black, you were headed to Nam. They say if he enlisted, he woulda been doing tours like Joe Louis did during WW2. I doubt it. Whitey loved Louis because he knew his place according to Honky McGee. They hated Ali and knowing the government who started Nam on a bull reason, would have sent Clay to the kill zone to get rid of that trouble maker.

Ali was a G.

I don't mind anyone not fighting for what they don't believe in, but the bolded point is bull , Ash.

You're my dawg, but this kind of simplistic "America didit" malarkey irritates me to no end. Read my breakdown on the previous page. The French ran that region for nearly 100 years, pillaging all of Vietnam's natural resources. A civil war broke out between French/South Vietnam and Communist insurgents. French came to us for help, and what interested Washington was the fact Ho Chi Minh was being backed by the Soviet Union.

The US "started" the Vietnam War as much as a murder victim started something with their murderer.

[whitemamba]

he basically told Mr. Charlie and Ms. Ann to go themselves and not "know his place." Dude gave up prime years to stand up to Whitey when many of Whitey's kids were sent to Canada or had money/political power to receive deferments to stay out of the war. If you were poor white trash or poor and black, you were headed to Nam. They say if he enlisted, he woulda been doing tours like Joe Louis did during WW2. I doubt it. Whitey loved Louis because he knew his place according to Honky McGee. They hated Ali and knowing the government who started Nam on a bull reason, would have sent Clay to the kill zone to get rid of that trouble maker.

Ali was a G.

I know, all that is dope , that's why I don't understand it lol

[Thread]

I don't mind anyone not fighting for what they don't believe in, but the bolded point is bull , Ash.

You're my dawg, but this kind of simplistic "America didit" malarkey irritates me to no end. Read my breakdown on the previous page. The French ran that region for nearly 100 years, pillaging all of Vietnam's natural resources. A civil war broke out between French/South Vietnam and Communist insurgents. French came to us for help, and what interested Washington was the fact Ho Chi Minh was being backed by the Soviet Union.

The US "started" the Vietnam War as much as a murder victim started something with their murderer.

Midst

[midnightpulp]

UK Armed Saddam? Lol it was Rumsfeld that was shaking his hand and pledging support. It was the US, stop trying to spin that .

We did support Saddam in that campaign but we didn't arm him. Political photo ops aren't evidence. I understand you're a naive college student who is likely in his anti-American phase, but you need to put that education to use and actually do some research.

Fact can't be "spun" only cited.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...796r/?page=all



http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2003/mar/06/uk.iraq

Any more questions? Or are you in that additional phase that accompanies the anti-American phase that thinks Europe is the friendly, tolerant, cultured and all inclusive society compared to America's imperialist war mongering?

[midnightpulp]

the #1 world threat to peace is Israel , whose monetary influence controls pretty much all of American foreign politics.

Sorry, Ghaz. I don't believe in conspiracy theories (Zionism, with America doing Israel's bidding).

I do agree we should tell Israel to off since I'm tired of the US babysitting them. We essentially agree. But where you see Israel as some kind of calculating super-villain puppet master, I see them as a petulant child prone to tantrums ("We're gonna go Samson option if you don't help us!")

[webshad]

I never defended Kobe's rape.

Clay is a draft dodging coward. His death doesn't change that fact.

Alright, so when Kirby dies, and I say "good riddance, one less rapist in the world", I better not hear you ing.

For now, Kirby retired from the NBA, good riddance one less rapist in the NBA.

[Ashy Larry]

I don't mind anyone not fighting for what they don't believe in, but the bolded point is bull , Ash.

You're my dawg, but this kind of simplistic "America didit" malarkey irritates me to no end. Read my breakdown on the previous page. The French ran that region for nearly 100 years, pillaging all of Vietnam's natural resources. A civil war broke out between French/South Vietnam and Communist insurgents. French came to us for help, and what interested Washington was the fact Ho Chi Minh was being backed by the Soviet Union.

The US "started" the Vietnam War as much as a murder victim started something with their murderer.

that proxy war BS is just as bad. We coulda stayed out of Nam but to say we had boys floating in the Gulf of Tonkin when they weren't was pretty chickenbleep. That's basically what got us into Nam. 50000 cats died on something that didn't happen?? Not cool. No different than the Nazis and Operation Himmler.

[webshad]

he basically told Mr. Charlie and Ms. Ann to go themselves and not "know his place." Dude gave up prime years to stand up to Whitey when many of Whitey's kids were sent to Canada or had money/political power to receive deferments to stay out of the war. If you were poor white trash or poor and black, you were headed to Nam. They say if he enlisted, he woulda been doing tours like Joe Louis did during WW2. I doubt it. Whitey loved Louis because he knew his place according to Honky McGee. They hated Ali and knowing the government who started Nam on a bull reason, would have sent Clay to the kill zone to get rid of that trouble maker.

Ali was a G.

Good post!

[Ghazi]

Sorry, Ghaz. I don't believe in conspiracy theories (Zionism, with America doing Israel's bidding).

I do agree we should tell Israel to off since I'm tired of the US babysitting them. We essentially agree. But where you see Israel as some kind of calculating super-villain puppet master, I see them as a petulant child prone to tantrums ("We're gonna go Samson option if you don't help us!")

Shillary Clinton, Jeb Bush, Marco Rubio, and Ted Cruz were all Zionist hand picked candidates

at Cruz suggesting Khamenei wants to kill all Americans.

The Zionists and AIPAC do exert some control over American politics.

USA/Iran could possibly even have DIPLOMATIC ties if the USA stopped supporting that cancerous regime, but alas...

[midnightpulp]

that proxy war BS is just as bad. We coulda stayed out of Nam but to say we had boys floating in the Gulf of Tonkin when they weren't was pretty chickenbleep. That's basically what got us into Nam. 50000 cats died on something that didn't happen?? Not cool. No different than the Nazis and Operation Himmler.

We were in Vietnam since 1950. First as advisers to the French and then later assisting the South Vietnamese with counter-insurgency. The war was going to happen regardless. My point was we didn't "start" anything over there. The communists fired the first shot (against the French/South Vietnamese), and us wanting to fight communism, stuck our nose in.

I agree we shouldn't have stuck our nose in, but I understand why we did given the geopolitical climate at the time (Western powers really were fearful of the prospect of the Soviet Union expanding). Also, Ho Chi Minh was no angel (why do you think millions fled Communist Vietnam?), so those 50K died fighting a good fight, for oppressed people.