Spurs: The importance of Repeating.

[ambchang]

You are the one who brought up per 100 stats to make Duncan's numbers in his peak seem closer to Hakeem's, which his per 100 stats are still better than Duncan's. You lose here.

I am not entirely sure if you have some sort of recent brain damage or are you just born with issues.

You said Hakeem had a MUCH higher peak than Duncan, and neither per game peaks nor per100 stats show as such. Whether Hakeem's numbers were better are irrelevant, because we are talking about MUCH better.

Guess what, I will be the bigger man and help you out with simple arithmetic.

Hakeem / Duncan / % difference
PPG: 27./25.5/9%
RPG: 14/12.9/ 8.5
AST: 3.6/3.9/-7.7%
STLS: 2.6/0.9/189%
BLKS: 4.6/2.9/59%

So for per game stats, Hakeem is only MUCH better in Stls and blks, neither of them I would consider major categories, especially steals for a center.

For per100 stats:
PPG: 35.8 / 33.5 / 7%
RPG: 18.8/18.3/3%
AST: 4.7/5.7/-18%
STL: 3.3/1.6 / 106%
BLKS: 5.8/4.5/29%

For 100%, the difference is almost negligible for PPG and RPG, Duncan has an OK lead on Hakeem in assists, Hakeem has a huge advantage over Duncan in Stls, and a very large difference in Blks. Overall, nothing could be considered MUCH better.

For Playoffs:

Hakeem 94/Duncan 02:
PPG: 28.9/27.6/4.7%
RPG: 11/14.4/-24%
BLK: 4/4.3/-7%

Actually, Duncan came out on top of this one.

Hakeem 95/Duncan 03:
PPG:33/24.7/34%
RPG: 10.3/15.4/-33%
AST: 2/3.3/-39%

You can argue either way, depending on how much of an emphasis you put on scoring, but Duncan has a major advantage in RPG and AST.

You bring it up when Kobe had bad shooting performances. So NOW it's not important because it pertains to Tim?

Because Duncan puts up decent numbers and not horrible numbers, while not shooting a ton of shots. Kobe bricks with much better options around him, Tim doesn't.

You can't win on raw stats so you moved to per 100 stats which you still lose.

You don't understand the meaning of the word "much" and you can't do basic arithmetic.

And one of those categories, Duncan is only better by 0.3. It simply shows Hakeem had to do more for his team.

Duncan can tie Hakeem, or be worse than Hakeem, and I am right, because I have shown Hakeem wasn't MUCH better than Duncan, with from a PPG, Per100, and playoff perspective.

Also, waiting on your rebuttal around how the system helped Duncan in his stats.

[djohn2oo8]

Good Lord. Chang wouldn't consider steals a major category for a center seeing how Hakeem is the only one in the top 10 in steals, a category that is dominated by guards.

[Killakobe81]

Good Lord. Chang wouldn't consider steals a major category for a center seeing how Hakeem is the only one in the top 10 in steals, a category that is dominated by guards.

Even though Amb is right you dont "normally" look at steals, the fact that Hakeem (and to a lessor extent Robinson) was so good at them it's a powerful extra weapon and speaks to how uniquely dominant Dream was. .
At his peak Hakeem, was protecting the rim, a damn good rebounder he was getting steals and abusing cats in the post. At his best Shaq may have been, no WAS more dominant (and I was to young to see Jabbar's prime) but there was not a more skilled or all around better big man than Hakeem in my book. Yes, Duncan had the better career ...but so many act like Dream only had two magical seasons when to me HAkeem at his best was better than anyone else I ever seen at PF/C, all around.

[TDfan2007]

Good Lord. Chang wouldn't consider steals a major category for a center seeing how Hakeem is the only one in the top 10 in steals, a category that is dominated by guards.

I think he just took exception to your hyperbolic statement of "much much better" and proceeded to put WAY too much effort in refuting your "claim" It's kind of amb's thing here...

I'd have no problem w/ anyone saying Dream was better, tbh, especially if we're talking peaks, but to say he's "much much better" is over the top imo.

Scoring: wash
Rebounding: wash
On-ball D: wash
Off-ball D: Hakeem
Passing: Timmy

[Killakobe81]

I think he just took exception to your hyperbolic statement of "much much better" and proceeded to put WAY too much effort in refuting your "claim" It's kind of amb's thing here...

I'd have no problem w/ anyone saying Dream was better, tbh, especially if we're talking peaks, but to say he's "much much better" is over the top imo.

Scoring: wash
Rebounding: wash
On-ball D: wash
Off-ball D: Hakeem
Passing: Timmy

I would give Hakeem the scoring edge tbh ...
Granted he loved to shoot more than TD who was more efficient but not sure how scoring wise Hakeem is not considered better by any measure.

[ambchang]

Good Lord. Chang wouldn't consider steals a major category for a center seeing how Hakeem is the only one in the top 10 in steals, a category that is dominated by guards.

And it's not. I thought Hakeem was a monster with steals, the only other center who is remotely comparable would be David Robinson.

Come to think of it, given your insistence on PPG stats:
Hakeem had peaks of 27 ppg, 14 rpb, 3.6 ast, 2.6 stl and 4.6 blks
Robinson had peaks of 29.8ppg, 13 rpg, 4.8asst, 2.3 stl and 4.5blks

I supposed you would say they are equals then.

[TDfan2007]

I would give Hakeem the scoring edge tbh ...
Granted he loved to shoot more than TD who was more efficient but not sure how scoring wise Hakeem is not considered better by any measure.

For the exact reason you just stated. He took more shots, and played on a team with a faster pace. That'll do the trick. Otherwise, they shot similar percentages, both were masters on the block, had terrific footwork, and both could take guys off the dribble and hit outside shots.

[ambchang]

I think he just took exception to your hyperbolic statement of "much much better" and proceeded to put WAY too much effort in refuting your "claim" It's kind of amb's thing here...

I'd have no problem w/ anyone saying Dream was better, tbh, especially if we're talking peaks, but to say he's "much much better" is over the top imo.

Scoring: wash
Rebounding: wash
On-ball D: wash
Off-ball D: Hakeem
Passing: Timmy

Yeah, I actually took exception to saying Hakeem was much better. I can see Hakeem as slightly better, which the numbers don't even show, if anything, it showed that they are pretty much equals.

Overall, I'd say Hakeem was the better on ball defender, better scorer, and Tim being the better passer and rebounder. As for off ball, Hakeem was way better as a shot-blocker, but Duncan was better with his positioning so I think overall D are quite similar. They really had similar peaks when you look at the numbers, and I was actually surprised. I always had the notion that Hakeem was a monster as well before djohn2oo8 started looking at the numbers and led me to know that Hakeem and Duncan are pretty much evens.

Kudos djohn2oo8

[Killakobe81]

Yeah, I actually took exception to saying Hakeem was much better. I can see Hakeem as slightly better, which the numbers don't even show, if anything, it showed that they are pretty much equals.

Overall, I'd say Hakeem was the better on ball defender, better scorer, and Tim being the better passer and rebounder. As for off ball, Hakeem was way better as a shot-blocker, but Duncan was better with his positioning so I think overall D are quite similar. They really had similar peaks when you look at the numbers, and I was actually surprised. I always had the notion that Hakeem was a monster as well before djohn2oo8 started looking at the numbers and led me to know that Hakeem and Duncan are pretty much evens.

Kudos djohn2oo8

amb ...smh

[djohn2oo8]

Prime Hakeem vs Prime Duncan would not have been fair for Tim...

[djohn2oo8]

Yeah, I actually took exception to saying Hakeem was much better. I can see Hakeem as slightly better, which the numbers don't even show, if anything, it showed that they are pretty much equals.

Overall, I'd say Hakeem was the better on ball defender, better scorer, and Tim being the better passer and rebounder. As for off ball, Hakeem was way better as a shot-blocker, but Duncan was better with his positioning so I think overall D are quite similar. They really had similar peaks when you look at the numbers, and I was actually surprised. I always had the notion that Hakeem was a monster as well before djohn2oo8 started looking at the numbers and led me to know that Hakeem and Duncan are pretty much evens.

Kudos djohn2oo8

The numbers do show Hakeem was much better. The numbers show he was a better scorer. Better at blocking shots. Better at stealing the ball. The numbers also show his best playoff runs came at age 31 and 32 when he was playing 40 minutes a game in the playoffs back to back years. The numbers also show Hakeem's best playoff stats came over a total of 45 games. Not 9 games like Duncan. Hakeem's peak better than Duncan's.

[ambchang]

Prime Hakeem vs Prime Duncan would not have been fair for Tim...

YouTube clips? Are you serious? I can find YouTube clips of gheorge muresan that would make him look like a HoFer. That's the point of those clips.

Funny thing though, Hakeem once said in an interview that he'd only send games where the rockets won and he had a big game back home so everybody thought he's some kind of God.

The numbers do show Hakeem was much better. The numbers show he was a better scorer. Better at blocking shots. Better at stealing the ball. The numbers also show his best playoff runs came at age 31 and 32 when he was playing 40 minutes a game in the playoffs back to back years. The numbers also show Hakeem's best playoff stats came over a total of 45 games. Not 9 games like Duncan. Hakeem's peak better than Duncan's.

Are you done being a re ? Hakeem is much better scorer when he is 9% better with raw stats and 7% better with per100? I concede he's a better in blocks and steals, but so what? Duncan matched him in every defensive advanced stat.

And 9 games vs 45? You do realize Duncan played 24 games in 03 playoffs, right? When you compare, at least compare equals.

I'd say Hakeem's peak better than Duncan is most definitely arguable, but much better? Numbers have shown otherwise. Every non re can see it.

[djohn2oo8]

YouTube clips? Are you serious? I can find YouTube clips of gheorge muresan that would make him look like a HoFer. That's the point of those clips.

Funny thing though, Hakeem once said in an interview that he'd only send games where the rockets won and he had a big game back home so everybody thought he's some kind of God.



Are you done being a re ? Hakeem is much better scorer when he is 9% better with raw stats and 7% better with per100? I concede he's a better in blocks and steals, but so what? Duncan matched him in every defensive advanced stat.

And 9 games vs 45? You do realize Duncan played 24 games in 03 playoffs, right? When you compare, at least compare equals.

I'd say Hakeem's peak better than Duncan is most definitely arguable, but much better? Numbers have shown otherwise. Every non re can see it.

You brought up Duncan's 27 and 14. That came over 9 games in 01-02. No it's not arguable. You and David Robinson know this the most. You can't win on raw numbers and you can't even win on advanced stats. You lose. Again.

[ambchang]

You brought up Duncan's 27 and 14. That came over 9 games in 01-02. No it's not arguable. You and David Robinson know this the most. You can't win on raw numbers and you can't even win on advanced stats. You lose. Again.

I took he two year prime. That's what I did. If you want to talk about the 9 games, then don't say it's compared to 45 games. You really are a special kind of stupid in that. And it's arguable, Duncan has shown to be clearly the better passer from an assist perspective. And I didn't even bring up the playoffs numbers, you did, and it showed Duncan to be the better passer and rebounder, also better at blocking shots. Hakeem was only better than Duncan at scoring and that was just in the playoffs. I didn't even care bringing up playoff numbers, you just like to neuter yourselves and kept gvng me ammo to say Duncan is the equal of Hakeem during their respective primes. seriously, I always thought Hakeem just had a higher peak, but thanks to you, I can now say they are about equal, with Hakeem having the slightest of the slight edges.

Also thanks to you, I can now say Robinson and Hakeem are equals. I had doubts before but thanks to your 7 step program, I am now cured.