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  1. #2151
    Veteran John B's Avatar
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    He does cheat to get rebounds. Unless you are a guy like Doncic that plays PG on offense and forward on defense, if you are getting around 10 rebounds per game, you are hunting for them, grabing rebounds that your teammates could have had. It isn't that big of a deal (proving that you are not leaving your guy open to go after rebounds), but it isn't a difference maker for your team either. The rebounds that make a difference are those contested ones. The type of rebounds that bigmen get.



    And relax, I'm not taking anything away from Murray. There's nothing I'd like more than for him to become a mega-super-duper star. I'm just stating something that I think should be pretty obvious for NBA and Spurs fans now: guards grabbing rebounds isn't a difference maker, and Murray needs to work on that offensive efficiency. I don't see how that's hating on the guy.

    Also, yeah, if you are ever serious about winning, being Westbrook-lite isn't ideal.
    DJM is long PG who can rim run. It’s but natural he gets rebounds and I’ve seen him grab rebounds against bigs. Granted his teammates would probably let him grab the rebound or two but that’s what teammates do. I have no problem him getting 3-doubles. It’s good for the team to have a budding star and could even attract a caliber FA in.

    The problem I have sometimes is he gambles too much for a steal. I hate to think to pad stats, being the league leader in steal. Because sometimes he gets burn. I’m not big on advanced metrics on how effective a defender DJM is vs his steals. I’d rather he stays in front of his guy on some plays.

    Lastly, the best comparison to look up to is Magic, who was also a 3-double machine. Unlike Russ, Magic made his team better as someone who can rim run, distribute and score. It’s tough because Magic did it in a slower and low scoring NBA, with giants staying in the paint.. whew

  2. #2152
    ಥ﹏ಥ DAF86's Avatar
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    Do you have any actual evidence of his ďcheatingĒ to get rebounds? I havenít seen anything like that from Murray. Heís always been a great rebounder. Thatís due to his very long reach, effort, and lack of rebounding big men on the roster, not cheating.
    There are many examples but what's the point? I will say them to you and you could just say "no, that isn't true" and that's it, no productive argument can be have.

    There are plenty examples that if you aren't a blind homer can easily see like getting needlessly among frontmen to grab rebounds others could have had, or always being the third guy on opposing free throws attempts to grab cheap rebounds when they miss. But instead of talking about this, I will just post this stat:

    https://www.nba.com/stats/players/re...sort=REB&dir=1

    Out of all the rebound leaders, Murray is the guy that grabs the lowest % of contested rebounds. What does that mean? That he grabs the least amount of meaningful rebounds. The vast majority of his rebounds are meaningless. That means rebounds that if he wouldn't have got, a teammate would have grabbed. That happens when you are hunting for rebounds to stat pad.

  3. #2153
    ಥ﹏ಥ DAF86's Avatar
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    Congrats sons, you made me look like a Murray hater when I was just trying to provide constructive criticism.

    I love the improvement he made as a playmaker and the mentality he showed to grab that 1st option job. I just don't care for his rebound hunting and I wish he could improve his efficiency. That's all he needs to become a true star.

  4. #2154
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    I still rather have Simmons! Murray has improved, kudos to him.

  5. #2155
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    There are many examples but what's the point? I will say them to you and you could just say "no, that isn't true" and that's it, no productive argument can be have.

    There are plenty examples that if you aren't a blind homer can easily see like getting needlessly among frontmen to grab rebounds others could have had, or always being the third guy on opposing free throws attempts to grab cheap rebounds when they miss. But instead of talking about this, I will just post this stat:

    https://www.nba.com/stats/players/re...sort=REB&dir=1

    Out of all the rebound leaders, Murray is the guy that grabs the lowest % of contested rebounds. What does that mean? That he grabs the least amount of meaningful rebounds. The vast majority of his rebounds are meaningless. That means rebounds that if he wouldn't have got, a teammate would have grabbed. That happens when you are hunting for rebounds to stat pad.
    Yikes. I never saw this stat before. He is definitely a rebound hog. The computer says so. He should stop trying to rebound around teammates and improve his fanboy rebounding %.

    Hoe STFU.

  6. #2156
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    Yikes. I never saw this stat before. He is definitely a rebound hog. The computer says so. He should stop trying to rebound around teammates and improve his fanboy rebounding %.

    Hoe STFU.
    Are you 7?

  7. #2157
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    I’ll never get mad at a player for securing a rebound or a loose ball even if advanced analytics say his teammate should have gotten that ball. Part of winning is no one fking cares who got the rebound, the loose ball, the final basket or the final assist. Players and fanboys should care about the win.

  8. #2158
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    Iíll never get mad at a player for securing a rebound or a loose ball even if advanced analytics say his teammate should have gotten that ball. Part of winning is no one fking cares who got the rebound, the loose ball, the final basket or the final assist. Players and fanboys should care about the win.
    Well, that's exactly my point. I don't care for rebounds that may look good on the box score of an individual but are ultimately meaningless on the impact of a game. I prefer my players to make a real impact where it really matters for their roles. So that, you know, the team can win more.

    I would prefer for my 1st option PG to grab less uncontested rebounds but improve his offensive efficiency.
    Last edited by DAF86; 01-20-2022 at 04:45 PM.

  9. #2159
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    Well, that's exactly my point. I don't care for rebounds that may look good on the box score of an individual but are ultimately meaningless on the impact of a game. I prefer my players to make a real impact where it really matters for their roles. So that, you know, the team can win more.

    I would prefer for my 1st option PG to grab less uncontested rebounds but improve his offensive efficiency.
    The majority of his counterparts are hardly adequate and will have to clear the ball to him in most cases anyways. Pick your battles.

  10. #2160
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    There are many examples but what's the point? I will say them to you and you could just say "no, that isn't true" and that's it, no productive argument can be have.

    There are plenty examples that if you aren't a blind homer can easily see like getting needlessly among frontmen to grab rebounds others could have had, or always being the third guy on opposing free throws attempts to grab cheap rebounds when they miss. But instead of talking about this, I will just post this stat:

    https://www.nba.com/stats/players/re...sort=REB&dir=1

    Out of all the rebound leaders, Murray is the guy that grabs the lowest % of contested rebounds. What does that mean? That he grabs the least amount of meaningful rebounds. The vast majority of his rebounds are meaningless. That means rebounds that if he wouldn't have got, a teammate would have grabbed. That happens when you are hunting for rebounds to stat pad.
    I read this stat different then you are trying to describe. This to me is saying others are not around to grab it. This does not mean he is getting it from his teammates. You look at the other wings on the list tatum/luka and they are just above him in % at 22. harden at 24 and harris at 26. Are these all rebound hogs also? I would guess most of these uncontested rebounds are the ones that are going over the bigs. This also explains why they have higher contested rebound %. With people shooting more and more Jumpers and 3s then in the past the rebounds are becoming longer and not just at the rim. If you just try to have your "bigs" rebound you could be losing out on lots of rebounds.

    I went back to look at offense rebounds and spurs have typically had their guards push back to stop fast breaks. murry this year is getting about 15% of his rebounds on offense Jacob is about 44%. looked at LMA (to get a god year i went with 18-19) and he was 33%. White another guard is 14%. So when they are supposed to be getting back he is about the same % as the other guards. Your bigs which would typically stay to try and get a rebound are much higher. Vassel is also about 14%. With him getting the Defense rebounds he may also be able to push the pace a little bit. This also all goes back to that I read it as uncontested from other players not that he is takeing them from his team. His avg reb distance is also up there with the other guards on the list.

  11. #2161
    e^(i*pi) + 1 = 0 MannyIsGod's Avatar
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    There are many examples but what's the point? I will say them to you and you could just say "no, that isn't true" and that's it, no productive argument can be have.

    There are plenty examples that if you aren't a blind homer can easily see like getting needlessly among frontmen to grab rebounds others could have had, or always being the third guy on opposing free throws attempts to grab cheap rebounds when they miss. But instead of talking about this, I will just post this stat:

    https://www.nba.com/stats/players/re...sort=REB&dir=1

    Out of all the rebound leaders, Murray is the guy that grabs the lowest % of contested rebounds. What does that mean? That he grabs the least amount of meaningful rebounds. The vast majority of his rebounds are meaningless. That means rebounds that if he wouldn't have got, a teammate would have grabbed. That happens when you are hunting for rebounds to stat pad.
    This is some amazing circular logic to make a point. This is what happens when instead of watching basketball and coming to conclusions based on what you see, you try to shoehorn stats to make the point you want to be true. The idea that an uncontested rebound just means a teammate would grab it is based on what exactly? Your stat selection could easily mean that smaller players grab a smaller percentage of rebounds in contested scenarios because they are smaller than those they are contesting the rebound with. There's a reason that why someone like Gobert is at nearly 50% of those. There's a reason why the league leaders in rebounding are larger players. What happens when you normalize the data for smaller players like DJM? Is his percentage still the lowest?

  12. #2162
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    This is some amazing circular logic to make a point. This is what happens when instead of watching basketball and coming to conclusions based on what you see, you try to shoehorn stats to make the point you want to be true. The idea that an uncontested rebound just means a teammate would grab it is based on what exactly? Your stat selection could easily mean that smaller players grab a smaller percentage of rebounds in contested scenarios because they are smaller than those they are contesting the rebound with. There's a reason that why someone like Gobert is at nearly 50% of those. There's a reason why the league leaders in rebounding are larger players. What happens when you normalize the data for smaller players like DJM? Is his percentage still the lowest?
    I like your analysis. Might have to define normalize to DAF86 to further drive home the point. At any rate I think we can all agree DJ is a definite building block for the future.

  13. #2163
    ಥ﹏ಥ DAF86's Avatar
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    This is some amazing circular logic to make a point. This is what happens when instead of watching basketball and coming to conclusions based on what you see, you try to shoehorn stats to make the point you want to be true. The idea that an uncontested rebound just means a teammate would grab it is based on what exactly? Your stat selection could easily mean that smaller players grab a smaller percentage of rebounds in contested scenarios because they are smaller than those they are contesting the rebound with. There's a reason that why someone like Gobert is at nearly 50% of those. There's a reason why the league leaders in rebounding are larger players. What happens when you normalize the data for smaller players like DJM? Is his percentage still the lowest?
    The thing is that smaller players like DJM don't average over 8 rpg precisely because of this height disadvantage and because it isn't what is asked of them. They grab the rebounds they have to grab and that's it. Them grabing more rebounds, rebounds that could be had by some of their teammates does absolutely nothing for the benefit of the team.

    Just to put it in numbers:

    DJ is grabbing 8.4 rebounds per game, but only 20% of them are contested. That adds to 1.68 rebounds per game. The rest are uncontested, which means (in 90% of the cases) another teammate could have had the rebound.

    So Murray is averaging 19.2 ppg, 8.9 apg and 8.4 rebounds per game. But if he were to average 19.2, 8.9 and 1.68 rebounds per game, the Spurs would be exactly the same team they are now. Sure, DJ's numbers would look a lot less sexy but the Spurs wouldn't suffer one bit with that drop off.

    That's what I want folks to understand with the lack of importance that high volume rebounding guards usually have. Not just Murray, with all rebounding guards it is the same.

  14. #2164
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    There are many examples but what's the point? I will say them to you and you could just say "no, that isn't true" and that's it, no productive argument can be have.

    There are plenty examples that if you aren't a blind homer can easily see like getting needlessly among frontmen to grab rebounds others could have had, or always being the third guy on opposing free throws attempts to grab cheap rebounds when they miss. But instead of talking about this, I will just post this stat:

    https://www.nba.com/stats/players/re...sort=REB&dir=1

    Out of all the rebound leaders, Murray is the guy that grabs the lowest % of contested rebounds. What does that mean? That he grabs the least amount of meaningful rebounds. The vast majority of his rebounds are meaningless. That means rebounds that if he wouldn't have got, a teammate would have grabbed. That happens when you are hunting for rebounds to stat pad.
    Lol @ calling me a homer

    I watch the games, I don’t see Murray hunt for rebounds. Sorry. I’ve been critical of Murray in the past, but never over his rebounding.

    And that stat doesn’t really support the assertion you’re making

  15. #2165
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    The thing is that smaller players like DJM don't average over 8 rpg precisely because of this height disadvantage and because it isn't what is asked of them. They grab the rebounds they have to grab and that's it. Them grabing more rebounds, rebounds that could be had by some of their teammates does absolutely nothing for the benefit of the team.

    Just to put it in numbers:

    DJ is grabbing 8.4 rebounds per game, but only 20% of them are contested. That adds to 1.68 rebounds per game. The rest are uncontested, which means (in 90% of the cases) another teammate could have had the rebound.

    So Murray is averaging 19.2 ppg, 8.9 apg and 8.4 rebounds per game. But if he were to average 19.2, 8.9 and 1.68 rebounds per game. The Spurs would be exactly the same team they are now. Sure, DJ's numbers would look a lot less sexy but the Spurs wouldn't suffer one bit with that drop off.

    That's what I want folks to understand with the lack of importance that high volume rebounding guards usually have.
    Someone lock this thread. Uncontested rebounds is a stupid ing stat to begin with but while we are being dumb we might as well go down the rabbit hole and calculate who is not contesting the rebound and where that uncontested rebound would go based on a computer algorithm or NBA 2K simulation or a fanboys oujiboard calculation.

  16. #2166
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    The thing is that smaller players like DJM don't average over 8 rpg precisely because of this height disadvantage and because it isn't what is asked of them. They grab the rebounds they have to grab and that's it. Them grabing more rebounds, rebounds that could be had by some of their teammates does absolutely nothing for the benefit of the team.

    Just to put it in numbers:

    DJ is grabbing 8.4 rebounds per game, but only 20% of them are contested. That adds to 1.68 rebounds per game. The rest are uncontested, which means (in 90% of the cases) another teammate could have had the rebound.

    So Murray is averaging 19.2 ppg, 8.9 apg and 8.4 rebounds per game. But if he were to average 19.2, 8.9 and 1.68 rebounds per game, the Spurs would be exactly the same team they are now. Sure, DJ's numbers would look a lot less sexy but the Spurs wouldn't suffer one bit with that drop off.

    That's what I want folks to understand with the lack of importance that high volume rebounding guards usually have. Not just Murray, with all rebounding guards it is the same.
    My point Im not understand and am actually trying to understand is why does uncontested mean another Spur would have gotten the rebound? I am not seeing uncontested as spurs were the only one to get the rebound. If you could explain that better maybe I could understand where your coming from.

  17. #2167
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    I read this stat different then you are trying to describe. This to me is saying others are not around to grab it. This does not mean he is getting it from his teammates. You look at the other wings on the list tatum/luka and they are just above him in % at 22. harden at 24 and harris at 26. Are these all rebound hogs also? I would guess most of these uncontested rebounds are the ones that are going over the bigs. This also explains why they have higher contested rebound %. With people shooting more and more Jumpers and 3s then in the past the rebounds are becoming longer and not just at the rim. If you just try to have your "bigs" rebound you could be losing out on lots of rebounds.

    I went back to look at offense rebounds and spurs have typically had their guards push back to stop fast breaks. murry this year is getting about 15% of his rebounds on offense Jacob is about 44%. looked at LMA (to get a god year i went with 18-19) and he was 33%. White another guard is 14%. So when they are supposed to be getting back he is about the same % as the other guards. Your bigs which would typically stay to try and get a rebound are much higher. Vassel is also about 14%. With him getting the Defense rebounds he may also be able to push the pace a little bit. This also all goes back to that I read it as uncontested from other players not that he is takeing them from his team. His avg reb distance is also up there with the other guards on the list.
    When does that happen in basketball? That no-one, not only opposing players but also teammates aren't around to grab a rebound?

    When a shot is missed, the defending team boxes out to try and grab the rebound. Often times the rebound is contested with an opossing player, other times is not, but very rarely a defending team has only one option to grab an uncontested defensive rebound. When a defensive rebound is uncontested, whichever player is closer to the ball gets it. That usually means bigmen, that's why they tend to grab the most rebounds. When a guard is grabbing rebounds at a bigman rate, it is because that guard is putting some extra "effort" in grabbing those rebounds that usually wouldn't fall on his vaccinity because of the position he plays and his phisical disadvantage.

  18. #2168
    e^(i*pi) + 1 = 0 MannyIsGod's Avatar
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    So using the rebound time stamps from the game log from last night, I want to see what a typical DJM triple double looks like reboundingwise.

    1 - 8:07 first. Murry grabs an offensive rebound off his own miss that Jakob was batting around. If Murray is not here, this rebound is not grabbed by a teammate but the Thunder
    2 - 6:52 first. Murray grabs a near airball on an OKC shot. He moves into position after Keldon moves out to contest the shot. Derrick White could have crashed the board if that area was open, but instead leaks out when DJM gets into position and gets an open 3 on the break after a Murray outlet. White could have rebounded here if he had to, but he didn't and it worked out for the better (missed the shot but still a good open look).
    3 - 1:46 first. 3 Spurs and no OKC players around the basket, OKC miss comes off straight to Murray. Another Spur probably would have grabbed this ball if Murray wasn't here, but he didn't do anything out of his way to go get it. He was just playing D, shot went up, he grabbed a board.
    4 - 7:33 second. Similar to the previous rebound. Murray ends up with a board that Jakob would have grabbed if he wasn't there.
    5 - 7:23 second. Murray secures a long rebound off of a White 3 miss. Not only is this not a rebound any other Spur could get (although it definitely didn't seem contested), it is highly likely to be an OKC fast break if DJM doesn't secure it.
    6 - 10:56 third. Murray follows his man in off a PnR and picks up the rebound off the miss. McDermott would likely be able to grab this if Murray isn't here, but Murray isn't out of position by any means.
    7 - 7:46 third. Murray grabs a board that Jakob is fighting for and comes out to 15 feet or so. Immediately ignites a fast break that ends up with a McDermott 3. This isn't a contested rebound, but if Murray isn't in position to grab it, OKC ends up with it and there is no fast break.
    8 - 3:12 third. Murray follows his own miss, gets his rebound between 3 OKC players. Not sure if this counts as contested. No one challenges Murray for the board because he follows the miss so well and is in the right position. If he's not there, OKC ends up with the board yet it wasn't really a contested rebound.
    9 - 46.9 third. Murray gets an uncontested board in the middle of 2 other Spurs. If he doesn't get it, another Spur definitely does.
    10 - 10.7 third. Murray gets a rebound by boxing out and having superior position on an OKC player. This definitely feels like a contested rebound.

    Out of those 10, only #9 was one where Murray probably didn't need to crash the boards. Obviously just one game, but none of this seems like pointless stat hunting. I'm honestly not sure how they determine contested rebounds, because several of those there wasn't anyone in contact with Murray, but if he doesn't grab it, its not Spurs ball.

    The dude is just good at knowing where the ball is going to come off. Its a trait you see in all good rebounders.

  19. #2169
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    The thing is that smaller players like DJM don't average over 8 rpg precisely because of this height disadvantage and because it isn't what is asked of them. They grab the rebounds they have to grab and that's it. Them grabing more rebounds, rebounds that could be had by some of their teammates does absolutely nothing for the benefit of the team.

    Just to put it in numbers:

    DJ is grabbing 8.4 rebounds per game, but only 20% of them are contested. That adds to 1.68 rebounds per game. The rest are uncontested, which means (in 90% of the cases) another teammate could have had the rebound.

    So Murray is averaging 19.2 ppg, 8.9 apg and 8.4 rebounds per game. But if he were to average 19.2, 8.9 and 1.68 rebounds per game, the Spurs would be exactly the same team they are now. Sure, DJ's numbers would look a lot less sexy but the Spurs wouldn't suffer one bit with that drop off.

    That's what I want folks to understand with the lack of importance that high volume rebounding guards usually have. Not just Murray, with all rebounding guards it is the same.
    Well I'll agree with you that guards with high rebounding percentage aren't some game breaking advantage. But you can understand that, and also understand that much of what you're saying in order to make that point is wrong. I don't disagree that I would rather my point guard to be a dead eye 3 point shooter than a great rebounder. There's not much to debate there. Having a TS% above .60 would be far better than averaging 8 boards a game as a guard. That is undeniable.

    But there's a difference between DJM being a very good rebounder within the flow of the game, and saying he is "cheating" in order to get more rebounds and stat pad. Triple doubles are definitely one of the most overrated statistical figures in basketball. But there's no indication that DJM is going out of his way in order to get them. He's just a naturally good rebounder - and has been ever since his very first year in the league. Also you're trying to fit DJM into a mold of what you consider a "true" star because you don't value his rebounding. While I don't think triple doubles are the end all be all, DJM is a true star right now. Its actually pretty amazing how well he's played in the past month, and NBA analysts are starting to take notice despite how much they loathe the Spurs (its amazing how DeMar is now their darling now that he's not in SA). He's not a star because of his rebounding, but rather the total package - especially his improvement on offense coupled with his defensive prowess. But from what I can see, the Spurs are leveraging his rebounding skill pretty well turning into fast offense. And just because I don't think its the most desirable stat in a PG doesn't mean its worthless either. The Spurs aren't exactly a great rebounding team as built.

  20. #2170
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    My point Im not understand and am actually trying to understand is why does uncontested mean another Spur would have gotten the rebound? I am not seeing uncontested as spurs were the only one to get the rebound. If you could explain that better maybe I could understand where your coming from.
    Because a "contested rebound" is a rebound that you contest with an opposing player. That means if you don't grab that rebound, the other team will have it. Those are the most meaningful rebounds because it gives your team an extra possession over the other team.

    An "uncontested rebound" is when there's no opposing team player near to try and rebound the ball. If Murray grabs a rebound, but that same rebound could have been had by any of his teammates, it is an "uncontested" rebound. Even if two teammates "contest" for a rebound, like sometimes happens, it is technically an "uncontested" rebound. In basketball it is very rare the occassion where a rebound can be grabbed by one player and one player only. That usually happens in long rebounds that either get grabbed by a player or go out of bounds (in which case it's still ball for the defending team, so grabbing that rebound is still not that important).

  21. #2171
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    So using the rebound time stamps from the game log from last night, I want to see what a typical DJM triple double looks like reboundingwise.

    1 - 8:07 first. Murry grabs an offensive rebound off his own miss that Jakob was batting around. If Murray is not here, this rebound is not grabbed by a teammate but the Thunder
    2 - 6:52 first. Murray grabs a near airball on an OKC shot. He moves into position after Keldon moves out to contest the shot. Derrick White could have crashed the board if that area was open, but instead leaks out when DJM gets into position and gets an open 3 on the break after a Murray outlet. White could have rebounded here if he had to, but he didn't and it worked out for the better (missed the shot but still a good open look).
    3 - 1:46 first. 3 Spurs and no OKC players around the basket, OKC miss comes off straight to Murray. Another Spur probably would have grabbed this ball if Murray wasn't here, but he didn't do anything out of his way to go get it. He was just playing D, shot went up, he grabbed a board.
    4 - 7:33 second. Similar to the previous rebound. Murray ends up with a board that Jakob would have grabbed if he wasn't there.
    5 - 7:23 second. Murray secures a long rebound off of a White 3 miss. Not only is this not a rebound any other Spur could get (although it definitely didn't seem contested), it is highly likely to be an OKC fast break if DJM doesn't secure it.
    6 - 10:56 third. Murray follows his man in off a PnR and picks up the rebound off the miss. McDermott would likely be able to grab this if Murray isn't here, but Murray isn't out of position by any means.
    7 - 7:46 third. Murray grabs a board that Jakob is fighting for and comes out to 15 feet or so. Immediately ignites a fast break that ends up with a McDermott 3. This isn't a contested rebound, but if Murray isn't in position to grab it, OKC ends up with it and there is no fast break.
    8 - 3:12 third. Murray follows his own miss, gets his rebound between 3 OKC players. Not sure if this counts as contested. No one challenges Murray for the board because he follows the miss so well and is in the right position. If he's not there, OKC ends up with the board yet it wasn't really a contested rebound.
    9 - 46.9 third. Murray gets an uncontested board in the middle of 2 other Spurs. If he doesn't get it, another Spur definitely does.
    10 - 10.7 third. Murray gets a rebound by boxing out and having superior position on an OKC player. This definitely feels like a contested rebound.

    Out of those 10, only #9 was one where Murray probably didn't need to crash the boards. Obviously just one game, but none of this seems like pointless stat hunting. I'm honestly not sure how they determine contested rebounds, because several of those there wasn't anyone in contact with Murray, but if he doesn't grab it, its not Spurs ball.

    The dude is just good at knowing where the ball is going to come off. Its a trait you see in all good rebounders.
    Crashing the boards along with others 90’s terms including “midrange” and “defense” are dirty words in this day and age.

  22. #2172
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    When does that happen in basketball? That no-one, not only opposing players but also teammates aren't around to grab a rebound?

    When a shot is missed, the defending team boxes out to try and grab the rebound. Often times the rebound is contested with an opossing player, other times is not, but very rarely a defending team has only one option to grab an uncontested defensive rebound. When a defensive rebound is uncontested, whichever player is closer to the ball gets it. That usually means bigmen, that's why they tend to grab the most rebounds. When a guard is grabbing rebounds at a bigman rate, it is because that guard is putting some extra "effort" in grabbing those rebounds that usually wouldn't fall on his vaccinity because of the position he plays and his phisical disadvantage.
    You atleast gave some reason to why you feel the way you do but I see many problems with your logic.

    1. when I said noone was around I did not mean in the building. obviously there are 9 other players and refs on the court. But by you stating what you did helps prove my point. "That no-one, not only opposing players but also teammates aren't around to grab a rebound? " Exactly there is your team plus the other team to rebound. uncontested does not mean that if DJ did not rebound it someone from the Spurs would have. it could have been someone from the other team. Which then yes him not getting these uncontested rebounds would hurt the team.

    2. You say whichever player is closer gets it. That usually means a big man. I would agree with you for rebounds that fall off the rim. but what about the ones that bounce of the rim. Sometimes they will bounce out to the 3 point line. Bigs usually do not get those. As shots get longer the rebounds get longer. This increases the rebounds for non bigs. So Murray is a non big so the longer rebounds would be where he gets them at. I believe his distance was 6.3. I am guessing that is 6.3 feet so enough that it would have bounced over a big man. Yes some of them will be in the paint and some will be further out.

    3. More and more teams are not playing with 2 rebounding bigs anymore. This leaves 1/2 to 2/3 of the rim open for rebounds especially if they go off fast. This also opens up more rebounds for non bigs.

    4. It seems to me more pgs drive then sg and maybe even sf (now that most sf have moved up to pf). This puts him in the lane more then others on his team to get slightly closer rebounds.

    While I will agree that he puts in extra effort in getting rebounds I would not want to discourage someone from putting in effort from getting a rebound unless it would be hurting his team which I dont see how his is.

    Nowhere on there do I see uncontested as it saying the Spurs were guaranteed the rebound even if murray did not get it.

  23. #2173
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    Because a "contested rebound" is a rebound that you contest with an opposing player. That means if you don't grab that rebound, the other team will have it. Those are the most meaningful rebounds because it gives your team an extra possession over the other team.

    An "uncontested rebound" is when there's no opposing team player near to try and rebound the ball. If Murray grabs a rebound, but that same rebound could have been had by any of his teammates, it is an "uncontested" rebound. Even if two teammates "contest" for a rebound, like sometimes happens, it is technically an "uncontested" rebound. In basketball it is very rare the occassion where a rebound can be grabbed by one player and one player only. That usually happens in long rebounds that either get grabbed by a player or go out of bounds (in which case it's still ball for the defending team, so grabbing that rebound is still not that important).
    Even going off uncontested being when there's no opposing team player near to try and rebound the ball does not mean they are not the second closet player to the ball. If DJ does not get the rebound they still would even though it was uncontested. Usually most teams still play man defense so usually the next closest person to you would be someone on the other team. So even though it may be uncontested I would think a decent amount of the time the next closet player would not be a spur.

  24. #2174
    ಥ﹏ಥ DAF86's Avatar
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    Well I'll agree with you that guards with high rebounding percentage aren't some game breaking advantage. But you can understand that, and also understand that much of what you're saying in order to make that point is wrong. I don't disagree that I would rather my point guard to be a dead eye 3 point shooter than a great rebounder. There's not much to debate there. Having a TS% above .60 would be far better than averaging 8 boards a game as a guard. That is undeniable.

    But there's a difference between DJM being a very good rebounder within the flow of the game, and saying he is "cheating" in order to get more rebounds and stat pad. Triple doubles are definitely one of the most overrated statistical figures in basketball. But there's no indication that DJM is going out of his way in order to get them. He's just a naturally good rebounder - and has been ever since his very first year in the league. Also you're trying to fit DJM into a mold of what you consider a "true" star because you don't value his rebounding. While I don't think triple doubles are the end all be all, DJM is a true star right now. Its actually pretty amazing how well he's played in the past month, and NBA analysts are starting to take notice despite how much they loathe the Spurs (its amazing how DeMar is now their darling now that he's not in SA). He's not a star because of his rebounding, but rather the total package - especially his improvement on offense coupled with his defensive prowess. But from what I can see, the Spurs are leveraging his rebounding skill pretty well turning into fast offense. And just because I don't think its the most desirable stat in a PG doesn't mean its worthless either. The Spurs aren't exactly a great rebounding team as built.
    Well, this is where we can find a common ground. To me it's clear that Murray goes "rebound hunting" sometimes but it doesn't matter. It is a point where we are never going to be on the same page because it is subjective.

    The point I was really trying to make is that one that you brought up. Regardless of whether Murray stat pads or not, I just don't care about guards grabbing high rebounding numbers because it is ultimately pretty meaningless in the overall impact of a game. I do care, however, on improving that offensive efficiency. That's where Murray is gonna provide his most impactful weapon as a Spurs player if he ever gets it to where star players usually have it. If he goes from a barely above .500 TS to around .600, with this current usage %, then that's when he will become a star through and through.

  25. #2175
    Every game is game 1 Seventyniner's Avatar
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    Out of those 10, only #9 was one where Murray probably didn't need to crash the boards. Obviously just one game, but none of this seems like pointless stat hunting. I'm honestly not sure how they determine contested rebounds, because several of those there wasn't anyone in contact with Murray, but if he doesn't grab it, its not Spurs ball.

    The dude is just good at knowing where the ball is going to come off. Its a trait you see in all good rebounders.
    Great stuff. Especially the parts showing that "uncontested" doesn't necessarily mean that there were any other Spurs players around.

    Another consideration: Pop might tell Murray to position himself for rebounds and other players to get going in transition once it looks like there's an easy defensive rebound. That could artificially inflate Murray's rebound numbers, but it would be because of coaching and a game plan (the Spurs play much faster than they have in the past) rather than selfishness.

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