Slam Online: Spurs Preview

[FromWayDowntown]

hey...all you had to do is clarify. You don't have to be a .

Are you surprised by that, though, mikey?

[Ginobili_20_gold_medalist]

Umm.. you apparently didn't. Bruce was switched onto Chauncey late in games (Parker guarded him the rest of the game while Bowen guarded Rip.) Bowen shut down Chauncey cold when he guarded him.

Marion averaged over 22 points a game in the first two playoff series --as much as players like Tim and Manu. Against Bowen he averaged 7.8 points a game.

So far you gave these excuses:

1. Ray was injured.
2. Carmelo shut himself down.
3. Bowen didn't shut down Chauncey.

So what's Marion's excuse?

Marion's offensive numbers have always been deceiving. He's a garbage player. And I don't mean he's garbage but he doesn't get his points in a traditional way. He cherry picks, runs the floor waiting for a dish from whatever good PG he happens to be playing with (Kidd, Marbury, Nash) for easy dunks and layups, gets put-backs from offensive rebounds, or occassionally hits an open jumper when the PG breaks down the defense, etc.

I don't really give Bowen a lot of credit for shutting a player like Marion down. I give the Spurs team (as a whole) credit for slowing down the type of ball Phoenix liked to do. The Spurs focused on shutting the Suns fast break down by getting back on defense and making them work in the half court. That pretty much took Marion out of the game because he wasn't getting any easy dunks and layups and also made Quentin Richardson disappear because he couldn't launch 3's in transition. Both things are what Phoenix thrives on.

Bowen had it easy because he knew Marion's ball-handling skills were shaky and the Suns weren't going to put the ball in Marion's hands for a one-on-one situation in the half court.

[samikeyp]

Are you surprised by that, though, mikey?

Well I try to give everyone who comes in new the benefit of the doubt....its what I get for being nice.

[implacable44]

hey give me your address and I will send you $5 to get a sense of humor too - what is this the sensitive board? -

I already pointed that out about Marion - who is cedric ceballos reincarnated - a garbage player who has to be set up - i Mean have you seen dudes jump shot ? yuck.

[samikeyp]

hey give me your address and I will send you $5 to get a sense of humor too - what is this the sensitive board? -

I already pointed that out about Marion - who is cedric ceballos reincarnated - a garbage player who has to be set up - i Mean have you seen dudes jump shot ? yuck

Keep your money...sounds like you can use it more than me.

One thing I will agree with you on though....Marion's J is Fugly.

[implacable44]

I dont need money man - what are you talking about ? I can spare $5 for you to get a sense of humor or maybe I could refer you to some of my fellow Judson grads that still live in San Antone to explain my sense of humor and just buy you lunch. ???

[samikeyp]

it wasn't that you need the money...you were saying that you were sending it to me for a sense of humor...I was merely replying that you need it for that purpose more than I.

[FromWayDowntown]

I already pointed that out about Marion - who is cedric ceballos reincarnated - a garbage player who has to be set up - i Mean have you seen dudes jump shot ? yuck.

Marion, a "garbage" player? You're kidding, right?

He's a garbage player who has been to 2 all-star games and has averaged 19+ over the last 4 seasons and who has shot 46% from the floor for his career. (he shoots a better percentage than even Kobe or McGrady -- if he got as many shot attempts as those guys, he'd be a ridiculous scorer, too).

Somehow, that "garbage" player seems to get over on the rest of the league. But when he encounters Bruce "only a pretty good perimeter defender" Bowen, he gets far less than he does against the rest of the league. That's curious. Are all the players that Bowen shuts down garbage guys?

[implacable44]

Look fromwaydowntown - i will assume because of your name you appreciate the long ball - having said that - Marion benefits greatly from extreme atleticism - dude can jump and the majority of his points come off put backs, dunks or rebounds. - he throws -- literally throws in an occassional three - he is not a good ball handler - he is a terrible shooter but he is athletic beyond belief and he plays to his strengths - he benefits from point guards and coaches putting him in the position to be the most effective. He is a Cedric Ceballos type of player. Nobody is saying he sucks but the Suns don't run too many plays for him or isolations. He gets steals, blocks, and moves well without the ball.

[samikeyp]

Yes but can he dunk with a blindfold?

[implacable44]

he can surely do the "cartwheel" dunk Finley attempted in the dunk contest can't he?

[FromWayDowntown]

Look fromwaydowntown - i will assume because of your name you appreciate the long ball - having said that - Marion benefits greatly from extreme atleticism - dude can jump and the majority of his points come off put backs, dunks or rebounds. - he throws -- literally throws in an occassional three - he is not a good ball handler - he is a terrible shooter but he is athletic beyond belief and he plays to his strengths - he benefits from point guards and coaches putting him in the position to be the most effective. He is a Cedric Ceballos type of player. Nobody is saying he sucks but the Suns don't run too many plays for him or isolations. He gets steals, blocks, and moves well without the ball.

Actually, my screen name has nothing to do with three point shooting, but thanks for asking.

Your arguments set up ridiculous fallacies, implacable. If anyone points to an accomplished player that Bruce Bowen handles well, you say its because the guy isn't very good. If anyone points to statistics that say that Bruce Bowen is able to deny good looks and force bad shots, you say that statistics don't matter. If anyone points to logical problems with the positions you take, you simply change the position.

It's no wonder that you tell people not to question you -- questioning you just gets you to move the freakin' target.

The truth of the matter is this: players who score lots of points in the NBA still can score lots of points on Bruce Bowen, but they do that against everyone - it's why they score lots of points. But, statistically speaking, when those players are forced to match up with Bruce Bowen, it takes them more shots to get their points. Those guys taking more shots means that their teammates aren't getting shots. It's a fairly simple concept, but if a team only has, say, 90 possessions in a game and its top scorer takes 30 shots to score 30 points, that means that the team only has 60 other possessions to find somewhere around 65-70 points to win the game. In the 4 years that Bruce Bowen has been starting on the wing in San Antonio, the Spurs have used that formula to pummel the NBA into the best overall record (by a wide margin) and two championships. That's pretty convincing proof that the defense-first formula, whether because of Tim Duncan or not, has worked as well as any approach in the L.

What's even more interesting, I think, is this. The Spurs have a winning record when playing without Duncan. They have a winning record when playing without Ginobili and without Parker. They have a winning record when playing without almost every player on the roster who's been here before. But when Bruce Bowen misses games, the Spurs (12-13) have a losing record. That's a fact.

You have suggested that Tim Duncan would rather have Ray Allen here than Bruce Bowen. I'm curious if the question has ever been put to him in that exact fashion. If the question is "Tim would you like to play with Ray?" it stands to reason that Tim would say yes, just as he would like to play with almost any other superstar in the game. But if the question is "Tim, suppose you could play with Ray, but you'd have to trade Bruce to do it, is that cool?" I'd be surprised if Tim would say yes. Those are two very, very different questions.

I'd take the time to blow up some of your other vague assertions, but I've got work to do. I'm done with this. If you wish to wallow in some absurd opinion that Jerome James is better than Rasho Nesterovic and some belief that the Spurs should jettison a player who has been among the most vital role players in the history of this franchise in favor of less defense and more scoring then so be it. That sort of "we're not on SportsCenter enough" thinking is loathesome to me. It evidences little basketball i.q. and a lot of reliance on PlayStation to formulate opinions.

[samikeyp]

Personally I think James is a waste of skin but aside from Allen's whining I like his game. Just curious I44...If you make a deal for Allen, who do you send to Seattle? You probably said this earlier but I don't feel like digging through 6 pages of posts.

[implacable44]

Actually - FWDT - You see Bruce with Black and Silver colored glasses and that is fine - I recognize that he can play Defense but I also recognize there are better defenders out there and people who would be better as a Spur than Bruce Bowen will be this year to fill that slot on the floor. We will see how the season unfolds.

As far as a playstation - I don't even own one and I am more of the philosphy to win games and finish shots - the "million dollar move, 10 cent shot" concept doesn't fly with me. It is not my style nor my preference of basketball. I would much rather watch the Pistons, the Mavs or the SPurs play than the Warriors, Nuggets or Nets. I prefer Tim to say Iverson. I think the Spurs have enough to repeat but I still think they will make a move before the all-star break. You can't blow anything up because it is an opinion and it is my opinion - you can't change it and I don't even know that you have any basketball IQ, rather you regurgitate stuff you read on NBA.com, hear on Sportscenter or on the local sports talk shows.

If you are going to provide statistics as far as winning percentage - please provide a source - for example if you are going to tell me the spurs lose lose without bowen and include thier record for that tidbit - please include the record for all players you listed as well as who else was out on those games, point in the season and opponents played. Statistics - as anyone who has taken that course in college or studies finance, business etc.,. are easily and often manipulated.

Ray Allen is not a "me" player and never has been. Look at that team he carried into the playoffs and the record they put up - and then look at that roster. Heck he even made Antonio Daniels look good.

[samikeyp]

I don't even know that you have any basketball IQ, rather you regurgitate stuff you read on NBA.com, hear on Sportscenter or on the local sports talk shows.

I will vouch for FWD's knowledge. There are quite a few of us at this site who know their stuff. I will agree that Allen is not a "me" player but IMO James is and personally I would not want his at ude here. Just my .02

[implacable44]

I will take your word for it - doesnt appear to be that way to me but I am new and I am sure my off-handed humor has caused people to think ill of me as well but I go on..

[smeagol]

you can't change it and I don't even know that you have any basketball IQ, rather you regurgitate stuff you read on NBA.com, hear on Sportscenter or on the local sports talk shows.

You are new to the site so you probably don't know this. One thing FWD does not do is what you stated above.

Are you related to Walton? You are as y as he is.

[FromWayDowntown]

I'm efforting your statistics. I'll have them posted by the end of tonight, with sources if you need them.

I will take your word for it - doesnt appear to be that way to me but I am new

For the record, I have never once suggested that the Spurs acquire Jerome James. I'll stand by that.

[ambchang]

ambchang - you are irrelevant - when i say " dont question me" - i am joking -it is humor - albeit difficult to comprehend in an email - and your logic is stupid - I didnt say he was a better offensive player than steve kerr, I said he was a better shooter and anyone who watches any ball - knows ray can get his own shot off and does all the time against anyone. again ray is a guy who's game i appreciate and who i think would fit in nicely with the spurs - an opinion - go get one instead of regurgitating what everyone else thinks or what you read - see that yellow line- follow it all the way to the wizard and get your own opinion

Your logic is even better, because I haven't even addressed your "don't question me" line, and for some reason, you are attributing it to me. Very persuasive of you to start insulting people by allocating wrong responses .
Wuhu, let me guess why what I said is similar to what everbody else said despite me not reading any of the other replies .... perhaps, it's just a very very odd chance, that a majority of people think that way, because it's how it is. If you can just, for a second, think that, perhaps, maybe, the reason your view is different from everybody else on the planet isn't because you have unrealisticlly high basketball IQ, but because you were just wrong. It is my opinion that Magic Johnson is the best in the history of the league to run the fastbreak, oh crap, I just reguritated somebody else's opinion, I HAVE to, MUST, change it to make myself look intelligent ....... Dikembe Mutombo is the best at running the fast break in the history of the league, man, don't I look and sound so much more knowledable now?
BTW, it is my opinion that Ray Allen doesn't fit in the Spurs offense, what are you gonna do about it? I mean, of course, other than put in ANY reasoning to back up your opinion like I did in mine.

my point was not to say I have played with so and so - or this and that guy - and ski didnt last 1 year in the L - and I know he was with the T-wolves -.
my point was to in black talking about dwight asking why he wasnt in the L - and I told him there are plenty of folks who could play ball that dont make it - folks better than people actually playing in the league/.

Yeah, please tell me something I don't know. If the NBA was a series of 1-on-1, we would likely see a few face changes in the league. But guess what Mr. Intelligent Basketball God, it isn't, and there is a reason the teams who are paying millions of dollars in investing in players do not dish out money to those players and ask them to join their team, because they would not help them win. But since we are on the topic on looking intelligent and seeking alternate opinions just for the of it, perhaps they were locked out of the league because all the teams are stupid, and they would rather pay $3 million to an underqualified individual, rather than invest that money into a vastly superior basketball player.

[ambchang]

Look fromwaydowntown - i will assume because of your name you appreciate the long ball - having said that - Marion benefits greatly from extreme atleticism - dude can jump and the majority of his points come off put backs, dunks or rebounds. - he throws -- literally throws in an occassional three - he is not a good ball handler - he is a terrible shooter but he is athletic beyond belief and he plays to his strengths - he benefits from point guards and coaches putting him in the position to be the most effective. He is a Cedric Ceballos type of player. Nobody is saying he sucks but the Suns don't run too many plays for him or isolations. He gets steals, blocks, and moves well without the ball.

yeah, Marion occasionally threw the 3 in 114 times last year alone with a 33.4% accuracy.
And please tell me since when did Ceballos average 10+ boards, grab a lot of steals and blocks.

[remingtonbo2001]

Bowen is a physical defender, which is far from being a "dirty" defender. I was a very physical player throughout high school, 6'3 guard. I wasn't, by any means, very quick, nor did I have lightining speed, but I found a way to compesate and in turn used my strength to overpower other guards. Yeah, I would throw elbows to clear room. The difference between physical and dirty, is based upon intention. I would find it hard to believe Bowen's intentions to be ill-fated. Any person who would make such a statement as to say that Bowen is a "dirty" player, is ignorant to the values and standards set by this organization and held by each player. I would always hear cries of ignorance from opposing coaches and players. I would lower my shoulder ever so slightly when driving to push off opposing defenders. There is a fine line to follow in order to aviod a foul, but it still bothered opposing teams, as well as my freshman coach. When I moved, my 2nd coach heralded the move. In no way was this move to cause harm to others, but was intended to produce results, being 2 points. You have two coaches, coaching the same game, yet with two completely different points of view. Those who claim others as "dirty", IMO, lack the compe ive desire to win. There are obvious exceptions, but none reside on Spurs' Roster.

[implacable44]

how in the world can you offer evidence that Ray Allen would not fit in with the Spurs offense ? - that is your opinion and I disagree with it. I also think you are 2 sticks shy of being an idiot if you think that there are not people out there who have the ability to be in the league but didnt make it for one reason or another. - if you feel that way then you don't know how to play basketball and you are an armchair captain. You are a Vitale so to speak.

[ChumpDumper]

You are a Vitale so to speak.

ambchang is a former NCAA and NBA coach?

Wow....

[ambchang]

how in the world can you offer evidence that Ray Allen would not fit in with the Spurs offense ? - that is your opinion and I disagree with it. I also think you are 2 sticks shy of being an idiot if you think that there are not people out there who have the ability to be in the league but didnt make it for one reason or another. - if you feel that way then you don't know how to play basketball and you are an armchair captain. You are a Vitale so to speak.

Nice come back, where is YOUR backup of the opinion that Ray Allen would fit in BETTER THAN BRUCE BOWEN with the Spurs? None whatsoever. You never addressed how taking the ball out of Tim's hands and put it in Ray Allen's hands would be a good thing (about how Allen can create shots for Tim), you NEVER addressed how the Spurs can plug the defensive void left by the departure of Bowen (and have no quantifiable evidence of how Bowen is an average defender despite all the All Defensive teams, runner up to DPoY, shutting down Anthony, Allen, Marion, Rip and Billups during last year's playoffs).
Yeah, and I SAID there are players out there who are great players, and they can't make it to the league because they can't fit into any teams at all. Do you finally get that? I tried to draw a diagram for you, but it's really hard to do it with a mainly text-based writer. How about ?
What happened to the I can bust your ass therefore I must be a better basketball mind argument? You were rolling on that, why shy away? Tell me more about Isiah Thomas and Elgin Baylor please. And tell me how Larry Brown, Phil Jackson and Greg Popovich made the top 50 all time as aplyers.

[implacable44]

Ray has won wherever he has been and played with all sorts of players = he was able to play with sam i am and the big dog in milwaukee and still thrive. Ray won at college and ray will create space for Tim because of his game - He can shoot - spacing will be better on offense - I didnt think i had to point those obvious attributes out to an einstein such as yourself. what does bruce do for Tim's offensive game ? - nothing -- he actually hurts it with his shaq like free throw percentage - inability to go off the dribble - people dont guard him and they drop his man on to Tim in the post. HE is a liability on offense. - I have repeatedly addressed the supposed "void" which I dont think there will be - Manu is still there and he can lock up people and still be productive on offense. - there would not be a void. not to mention the anchor of the D is Tim and the system. The spurs play help man better than any team in the league.

oh and I can bust your ase - and what about LArry Legend ? Bill Russell ? Jerry West ? all top 50 players and all great at coaching / gm positions. what about them huxtable ?