Bravo, FromWayDowntown, samikeyp, and ambchang... Bravo...
I dont get owned worker bee. it just doesnt happen that way.^ Already did chief, and if you've spent any time around this forum, you would know what I'm talking about, I know some of the other posters do. Trust me my simple friend, you've been OWNED. Don't feel too bad, you're not the first.
I44, You obviously know the game and no one is debating how much you know or don't know but you tell people that "I can bust your ass" or say that you are better than someone on the court when you don't even know how good that person might be. You also say that because someone didn't play the game that their opinion is worthless and because you did, yours is more valid. You call people out like that...they are going to react accordingly...wouldn't you? You make statements like that, then when people react, as they are going to do, you jump behind the "its my opinion" or "its a joke" card. You said it yourself...its hard to tell in a post. (actually you said email) No one is saying you can't have an opinion or that your opinion sucks. Personally I respect your opinions, I just haven't always agreed. Just because I don't agree doesn't make me any less knowledgable about the game...as you have said, its an opinion. You will find that a lot of the posters here are very well versed in the all phases of the game, the business side as well as the playing side. I am not saying you don't know the game, but we have a lot of smart people here as well. You could probably learn something from them and vice versa.
i dont make jokes -- i have opinions - everyone does. basketball is an opinion - you can attempt to validate that bill russell is the best player ever because of those rings or you can say wilt chamberlain because he scored 100 and even led the league in assists one year when they called him selfish and said he didnt make his teammates better. - point is it is all opinion - some of you homers opine that bowen is a better fit for the spurs than ray allen - i dont agree. you throw statistics out which carry little or no weight with me because ray allen is not a spur and has not had the benefit of playing with a big man the caliber of tim duncan. there are no statistics for me to present. you think one thing and i think another.
Yeah, offensive proficiency alone wins championships. Just ask the real champions, you know, the Suns, Kings and Mavs.
It's obvious that Bowen's defense was critical to the 2003 and 2005 championships.
But never underestimate some Spurs fans. Never.
Man, I suppose they don't make law students like they do, that's the BASIS of logic, I mean, people learn that stuff in Grade 9, and it's making people into an intellectual icon in your book? And yeah, why let the simple concept of the following cloud you.
watch that sentence structure again brother - socrates would be flipping in his grave and pulling his hair out. " i suppose the don't make law studens like they do?"???? - be careful a little time goes a long way in expressing your thoughts - get them clear in your head before you type them and then proof read it.
"You assert that good player = good basketball mind.
I came up with Isiah Thomas, Elgin Baylor and Magic Johnson to refute that point.
You somehow think that I imply good basketball makes terrible GMs/coaches, while my simple example was to illustrate that good player does not make good basketball mind.
Is it so hard to grasp? Mr. Lawyer. I mean, how do you argue in court without the use of logic? I would love to see it.
Let me draw up a simple example.
Person A asserted the invention of TV led to violence. Person B pointed out that violence was present prior to the invention of TV. Person A somehow think that Person B is implying the invention of TV stopped all violence, and thus say that violence is still present AFTER the invention of TV, and thus proving his original point.
See how stupid Person A is now?
now i see how stupid your logic is though and how you have issues with the truth and choose to distort it. Are you telling me that Isaiah, magic and elgin baylor arent good basketball minds? you honestly think that they can play the game at the level they do and not understand it ? elgin baylor is the victim of an owner who bought his team for purely social reasons. If they would have resigned their players and if their owner would have been willing to spend money over the years they would have one of a team. - Ddint Isiaih win games with the pacers ? Didnt he establish the magic ? give him some time in new york - he inherited a team WAYYYYYYYYYY over the cap with a log jam of terrible players from Frank Layden and you want to blame isaiah ? - you have to be able to understand basketball to be able to play it at the level these guys do. magiv failed because he expected todays players to have the same drive, dedication and love that he did and they dont. does that mean he doesnt know basketball ? - hey tragic - you dont know basketball - this guy on the spurs board says so,. - please. - when you can comprehend the law and the simplicity of it - let me know.
Could you find me ONE player who EVER shot 60% from 3pt line, ever? Or do you think sharp eye shooters like Steve Kerr, John Paxson et all all we doubled teammed throughout their career?
i dont think they were double teamed but they didnt get the open looks that bruce does, - their man just didnt leave them - or wasnt supposed to huh steve nash?
"And yeah, don't let common sense and facts get in the way of your opinion. It doesn't matter that Ray Allen only got in the playoffs 4 times in his 9 year career (that is finishing worse than 16 out of 30 teams, or even 29 teams earlier on his career), which means that his teams finished in the bottom half of the league a majority of his career. But no, don't let that come between your opinion that he is a winner."
switch ray and bruce and see how good the sonics would have been last year. and the spurs would have had the same result - switch them for the past three and the spurs would have actually won consecutive les and bruce would not be all nba defense or even starting for that matter.
"I don't know how the Spurs would have done without Bowen, all I know is that Billups was tearing the Spurs apart in the Finals until Bowen was on him, and then, for some magical reasons, he couldn't score."
I don't believe i ever said bruce cannot play defense - i know he can play defense. that is his niche. i seem to remember chauncey bustin a few jumpers on bruce though.
"Bowen led the league in 3pt %? Didn't he? http://www.basketball-reference.com/...bowenbr01.html
Oh no, I just stated out facts, and since that's regurgitation of real life situations, it MUST be wrong according to you. For me to look smart, I will have to say that it is not the case, and that Bowen never led the league in 3 pt shooting. That will make me more intelligent."
how nice of you to quote me and leave out part of it - I put how many attempts he had that year when he shot .414 - i am very aware that he had the highest peercentage and won the three point shoot -- er no he didnt - didnt even get invited , --wierd since they usually invite the league leaders.
"So you can just plug any Joe Schmoe in the Spurs system and it will work? I suppose that is exactly why Bowen made the AllD team last year, while Manu, Parker, Barry et all didn't. What about Miami? How did that happen? How did Bowen make that All-D team? By having Anthony Mason covering his back?"
ray allen is any joe schmoe now ? somebody call the sonics and tell them they wasted all that money. - are you honestly implying anthony mason was the best player on the heat that year? man i seem to recall they had this center- ferocious guy - great shot blocker - tenacious - you know his name right ? and you know it wasnt anthony mason = selective fact guy,.
there is no fact that bruce bowen is better for the spurs than ray allen - that is an opinion that cant be proven unless they traded places. that case would even get to court. i would still take your money though,.
NBA front offices never make mistakes. Never.
The basic question is whether the marginal offensive gain from replacing Bowen with Allen would make up for the marginal defensive loss. There is something to be said for a sharpshooter, but there is also something to be said for a guy who can allow you to play some semblance of man to man D against top opposing perimeter scorers.
Perception is what it is and it goes against your opinion.
But hey, it's valid, but its just a what-if. Your opinion is virtual reality. Actual reality says different and it's bolded for our enjoyment
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/200...nse/index.html
Clamping down
The Spurs are proving they have the defensive goods
Posted: Monday June 13, 2005 11:20AM; Updated: Monday June 13, 2005 9:49PM
There is an old mantra in sports that defense wins championships, which in the NBA is as close to gospel as it comes. Last year's Detroit Pistons team staged on a nightly clinic on the intricacies of team defense, while two upper-echelon defenders, David Robinson and Tim Duncan, anchored the 2003 San Antonio Spurs.
Go back even further and you'll find teams such as the Chicago Bulls, who, as talented as they were offensively, were equally dominating on the defensive end. Scottie Pippen and Michael Jordan were regulars on the all-defensive teams, and power forwards Horace Grant and Dennis Rodman both garnered nods while wearing Bulls uniforms. Hakeem Olajuwon was a first-teamer during the Rockets' le run in 1994, while Bad Boys Rodman and Joe Dumars were among the premier defensive players of their era.
After two games in the NBA Finals, it appears the '05 San Antonio Spurs are primed to take their place in history as the next great defensive team. With all due respect to Detroit, which boasts the reigning Defensive Player of the Year (Ben Wallace) and a pair of defensive second-teamers (Chauncey Billups and Tayshaun Prince), San Antonio has proven there is defense and then there is defense.
The Spurs' defensive philosophy is simple: Have BruceBowen, the best on-ball defender in the league, neutralize the opposition's best perimeter threat while the rest of the team revolves around Duncan, whose tremendous basketball acuity allows him to assess situations as they occur and make adjustments accordingly. The strategy is effective -- in Game 2, no Piston scored more than 15 points, while several times during the course of the night Detroit players were forced to fire off-balance jumpers or were met rudely by an expiring shot clock.
The other problem for Detroit is that while San Antonio can shut you down, it also has an offense capable of causing problems. In Game 2, the Spurs seemingly solved the Pistons' defensive schemes, posting 58 first-half points while consistently befuddling Detroit with some of the most basic of plays. Several times Sunday night Spurs swingman Manu Ginobili set up around half-court and ran the high pick-and-roll with Duncan. Ginobili's aggressiveness forced the strong-side defender to cheat over and deny him the lane, thereby leaving wing players such as Bowen open for uncontested jump shots. Of the 13 shot attempts Bowen had Sunday, at least eight came with no defender within 10 feet.
San Antonio also appears to have a certain continuity that Detroit lacks. For the second consecutive game, Spurs head coach Gregg Popovich pulled Ginobili early in the first quarter, keeping a tight rotation of bench players Brent Barry, Beno Udrih and Robert Horry. On the other side, Pistons head coach Larry Brown is subs uting at will, trying various combinations in an effort to match up better with San Antonio. A late ankle injury to Carlos Arroyo further depletes a Pistons bench that isn't very deep to begin with.
For Detroit to climb back into this series, two things need to happen: First, Brown must restore the team's confidence in itself. The Pistons clearly are a shaken team unaccustomed to taking two sound beatings in a series. Brown has won les before, but he's lost them as well -- that makes him the only person qualified to remind the Pistons that they have the talent to compete in this series.
Second, Detroit has to ratchet up its own defense. This series will be won or lost in the trenches, not the open floor. The 76 points the Pistons put up Sunday likely is the average they'll post this entire series, but San Antonio's 97 is a more flexible number. For the second consecutive night, Ginobili scored 20-plus points, this time doing it on only eight shot attempts. Detroit has the means (Lindsey Hunter, Billups) to slow Ginobili, but the Pistons need some help. Both Wallaces (Ben and Rasheed) must do a better job of denying Manu such easy access to the lane, perhaps going as far as delivering a message to the scrappy Argentine in the form of a body shot during one of Ginobili's hard drives to the basket. Disrupt Ginobili and you wreak havoc with an integral part of the Spurs offense.
The next three games are at the Palace of Auburn Hills, making each contest a must-win for the defending champions. One loss guarantees San Antonio, at worst, a trip home with a 3-2 advantage and a chance to close out its third le in seven years on its home floor. The Pistons must play near-flawless basketball to achieve that goal, a tall order against what appears to be the next dynasty in the making.
AROUND THE FINALS
Rasheed Wallace was up to his typical tricks Sunday, choosing to make the media and the officials his enemy instead of the opposing team. The technical-foul champion managed to avoid one in Game 2, despite an Oscar-caliber flop and spread on the floor after a foul call (referee Dan Crawford showed great restraint with Wallace throughout the game). After the game, Rasheed punished the press by answering questions in front of a 3-foot wide beam, dismissing requests to move into the camera's line of sight. By all accounts, 'Sheed is a great teammate and solid man, but the level of disdain he holds for the media is not only a mockery of him but is embarrassing to the game as a whole.
Last edited by Man In Black; 10-12-2005 at 12:56 AM.
How a Piston fan feels:
http://www.hoopsjunkie.net/blog718/i...guards-stupid/
Not only in game two but also for this entire series.
While the Pistons had a lot of problems in game one of the NBA Finals the main one, which is the one most likely to do them in, is how to handle San Antonio’s explosive and relentless backcourt duo of Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili. Both players shook off the rust and bad first halves to finish with 15 and 26 points respectively. They may have outscored Detroit’s backcourt tandem of Chauncey Billups and Richard Hamilton by a mere two points but in the critical fourth quarter, it was Parker and Ginobili that were dominating the game by breaking down the vaunted Detroit D and either scoring on drives or knocking down off the dribble J’s.
If that continues tonight and throughout the rest of this series, then the Pistons, well, can’t win. And that’s the big dilemma for Larry Brown and his coaching staff at this point. What do they do with the Spurs guards, especially Ginobili? One of the reasons — perhaps the main one — the Pistons D is so good because they have two intimidating and prolific shot blockers in the Wallace Boys that opposing guards don’t like to mix it up with. After all, who wants to run into the heavily-muscled Ben Wallace or face ‘Sheed’s scowl and listen to him talk smack after he’s swatted away an attempted lay-up? Faced with that twosome, most guards are content to hang around the perimeter and shoot J’s.
That certainly isn’t true of the Spurs guards, who are always on the attack. Rather than be pressured by Detroit’s unforgiving D, Ginobili and Parker push back, putting pressure of their own on the Wallace Boys, Billups, Hamilton, and Tayshaun Prince by refusing to be denied the lane. And this is a different game than the Pistons are used to playing. They’re used to bullying opponents into bad shots and generally wreaking havoc on the opposing teams offense.
As we saw in game one, that formula just isn’t going to work against the poised and irrepressible Spurs, which means the defending champs need to find another way to win. Unfortunately for the Pistons, they don’t seem to have many other options. More offensive production from ‘Sheed would be nice but he’s got his hands full with Tim Duncan, Nazr Mohammed, and the wily Robert Horry. Even if Wallace scores 30 points will that be enough? It sure doesn’t seem like it, as any additional buckets he gets are likely to come because the Spurs, the NBA’s best defensive team, have shut down Hamilton or Billups.
Prior to this series, it was the fact that San Antonio is the NBA’s best defensive team that seemed to be overlooked by the hoops cognoscenti. When you consider beat the NBA’s two highest-scoring teams to win the Western Conference, it’s clear they have the defensive chops to shut down a Detroit squad that’s very average on the offensive end. Through in the fact the Spurs designated stopper and disruptor, Bruce Bowen, seems to have gotten into Richard Hamilton’s head — the normally accurate Hamilton missed six lay-ups in game one — and the Pistons are in trouble.
With San Antonio refusing to be cowed by Detroit’s fearsome D, the Pistons are looking to their offense for a win tonight. The problem with that line of thought is that, as we saw in game one, the Spurs play some pretty some mean D themselves. Beyond the Spurs great D is the fact that Detroit, a team prone to long stretches of offensive inep ude, just isn’t the sort of squad that can outscore an opponent. So, we’re back to square one: it’s Detroit’s D vs. San Antonio’s O.
If we can take anything from game one, it’s that such a match-up favors San Antonio. Expect game two to be more of the same.
There is a role for players like Bruce
http://www.olympic-usa.org/11767_32691.htm
Let's get physical
Jack McCallum // Sports Illustrated // May 4, 2005
Goateed, soft-spoken and even-tempered, San Antonio Spurs small forward Bruce Bowen has the stolid aspect of a jazz bassist. Yet in recent NBA seasons opponents have singled out the 6'7", 200-pound Bowen as--let's not put too fine a point on it--a thug. "Nothing could be further from the truth," he says, flashing an enigmatic smile befitting either a cool musician or a cold-blooded enforcer.
While the postseason is the time when superstars such as Tim Duncan, Shaquille O'Neal and Tracy McGrady continue down their paths to the Hall of Fame, it is also time for bruisers such as Bowen to emerge from the background and make their marks (sometimes literally). Call them the Disrupters: Their unsung handiwork can change the flow of a game and the outcome of a series. "The pretty stuff makes the highlights," says Dallas Mavericks coach Avery Johnson, "but it's the guys who do the down-and-dirty work who can make or break a team."
The Nuggets, and forward Carmelo Anthony in particular, felt the impact of two such scrappers in Game 3 of their first-round Western Conference playoff showdown with the Spurs last Saturday in Denver. When Anthony wasn't getting banged and badgered by Bowen, he was getting jammed and jostled by swingman Manu Ginobili, whose style, as disgruntled Nuggets coach George Karl described it, is "put your head down and run into people." Anthony didn't play badly, but each of his 19 points was a struggle. With 22 seconds left and San Antonio's 86-78 victory and a 2-1 series lead sealed, he whacked Ginobili with a forearm, drawing a flagrant foul and an ejection.
"We may have gotten into his head a little," said Bowen. There was that smile again.
While Bowen had a typical nonoffensive night (three shots, five points), Ginobili pinballed his way to a game-high 32 points. Even though he has a sweet lefty jumper and a variegated array of moves to the hoop, it is Ginobili's willingness to sweep the floor with his headlong dives and bounce off opponents (or teammates) that gives him his iden y. In a salute to Ginobili's style and Argentine heritage, Spurs guard Brett Barry has christened him El Contusion.
It is the perfect postseason nickname. Something changes when the phrase best of seven is in the air. The final six weeks of the regular season are--except for a stray team or two trying to grab an eighth seed--a sleepwalk to the finish line. But when the playoffs start, feet get lighter, elbows sharper, shoulders more forcefully placed. The in-the-paint bangers, loose-ball retrievers, back-screen setters and pick-and-roll thwarters make their presence felt. Backup big man Michael Ruffin, by his own account, has "never ever had a play called for him" during five seasons, but there he was last Saturday in Washington, making an early follow-up dunk that set the tone for the customarily soft Wizards in their 117-99 Game 3 defeat of the Chicago Bulls. "One small play can cost you a game and turn a series around," says Miami Heat power forward Udonis Haslem. "If you have an opportunity to make a play, do one of those little things, you'd better take advantage of it."
Or as Rockets coach Jeff Van Gundy puts it, "At this time of year, even the little things are big things." That was confirmed, for good and ill, in Houston's showdown with the Mavericks. In Games 1 and 2, the pesky defense of forward Ryan Bowen against Dallas star Dirk Nowitzki helped the Rockets pull out a pair of road wins. (It also earned the 6'9" Bowen, who had made just six starts and averaged all of 9.2 minutes during the season, a new handle: the Germanator.) But in Game 4 on Saturday in Houston, a Mavericks role player trumped the Rockets' star. Though McGrady scored a game-high 36 points, he lost possession with 11.4 seconds remaining when small forward Josh Howard--the Mavs' one true disrupter--knocked the ball out of his hands, keying a 97-93 series-tying victory. "That kid is special," Dallas swingman Michael Finley said of Howard. "He doesn't always wow you, but he's got that knack for making game-changing plays at both ends."
The little things are often delivered in a forceful way, for pure muscle is a major part of playoff basketball. That's why nasty-by-nature players have an advantage in the postseason, a prime example being Bulls rookie forward Andres Nocioni, whose energy will be critical if Chicago is to get past Washington, which squared the series with a 106-99 Game 4 win on Monday night. Rougher than Ruffin and bigger (but less skilled) than his countryman Ginobili, the 6'7", 225-pound Nocioni never goes around someone he can go through--and never steps aside if he can make someone go through him: Drawing offensive fouls is one of his specialties. "Noche positions his body, and he takes the hit, a lot of them directly in the middle of his chest, which is always a charge," says Bulls coach Scott Skiles. "Take that same hit in either shoulder, that's a block."
It's hard to say whether Nocioni thinks he plays dirty. "In Europe, I play like this all year and I never have problem," Nocioni says with disingenuousness made charming at least in part by his fractured English. "Here, I don't know why the people don't like my style. I try to defend strong. I try to get the rebounds. But some people aren't happy for this. It's a different style than most people. Maybe it's too hard for some people."
Sonics 6'8" forward Reggie Evans is too hard for some people also, though he is undersized for a power rebounder. After Seattle's first three games against Sacramento, Kings coach Rick Adelman filed an official complaint to the league about what he considered the Sonics' overly physical play. In helping Seattle to a 3-1 series lead, it was no surprise that Evans was throwing his 245 pounds around at both ends of the floor. When he goes for an offensive rebound, instead of trying to slither around the box-out, he latches on to his opponent's midsection, using one hand to keep him grounded while reaching for the board with the other. On the defensive end he sprints to the basket, carves out space with his butt, then spreads his stance to create more room. "I kind of sit back in the woods," says Evans, "just waiting for something to happen."
The best disrupters do the subtle things physically and, sometimes, the physical things subtly. Such a warrior is 14-year veteran Dale Davis, whose fierce play helped the Indiana Pacers stay even at 2--all in a bruising series with the Boston Celtics. Davis goes almost unnoticed by fans during a game--except when one of his rare shots clangs off the rim--but not by his teammates and coaches, who were delighted when he returned to Indiana from New Orleans in March. "Dale has been one of the main reasons this team has taken off," says guard Reggie Miller. He should know, for more often than not it is Davis who clears the way for a Miller jumper. Most fans don't look at setting a pick at all, but Davis studies it; he reads not only what Miller does ("He may take two steps left, two steps right, circle around and then come back up," Davis says) but also what the guy he's picking does, then he adjusts accordingly. And, unlike many of his oversized peers, he rarely gets called for an offensive foul.
Likewise, a player who can fight through a screen is extremely valuable at this time of year. Particularly when that person is stationed alongside Shaq, who more often than not impersonates a very large traffic cone when defending the pick-and-roll. In Miami's sweep of the New Jersey Nets, Haslem not only averaged 11.8 boards but also frequently took care of two men on defense: his own and O'Neal's.
The best example of a player who combines physicality with mobility is Detroit Pistons center Ben Wallace--"the best disrupter I've ever seen," says teammate Chauncey Billups. Named the NBA's Defensive Player of the Year on Monday for the third time, Wallace does everything on the interior-defense checklist: rebounding, playing one-on-one D and leaving his own man to block shots. ("Keeping a tight paint," as Seattle forward Nick Collison puts it.) But Wallace also patrols the outside, a daunting sight for smallish guards. Thanks in large part to the havoc wreaked by Wallace, Detroit held a 3-1 lead over the 76ers after a 97-92 overtime win on Sunday in Philly. Says Sixers assistant coach Lester Conner of planning to face Big Ben, "It's kind of like when offensive coordinators tried to run away from Lawrence Taylor."
Though Wallace would never be caught dead in a bustier, he is a direct heir of Dennis Rodman, a player who got into an opponent's hair and, in doing so, also got into his head. I know he's coming. Is he coming hard? Where's he coming from? "Whenever I see a guy pissed off," Evans says, "I feel like I've won." Nocioni has become that kind of distraction, too. He studiously ignores opponents, staying away from the pregame handshakes, eschewing the kind of fraternization that Bulls assistant Ron Adams calls "smoking the NBA equivalent of the peace pipe." Explains Nocioni, "This is my job. Everybody talks. I don't like it."
Bruce Bowen is aware that he doesn't win friends with his no-nonsense, never-give-in style, which was evident again on Monday as the Spurs took a 3-1 series advantage with a 126-115 overtime road victory. Along the way to becoming a great defender, Bowen realized he liked that moment when he had driven his man to the breaking point. "There are little signs you see," says the 33-year-old Bowen. "Some guys quit. Some guys start complaining to the refs. Some guys start barking at their teammates after missing a shot. It's great when I see the teammate look at him and say, 'What do you want me to do? All I did was pass you the ball.'"
Bowen relishes the strategic challenge, too. He likes to confuse a post-up player by appearing on one side of his body, then darting to the other. He gains an advantage, he says, by studying "where my man wants to go rather than where he is at the moment," then beating him to the spot. If they arrive together, Bowen will often claim the turf by adroitly "hipping" his man; it's much more subtle than an elbow and rarely draws a whistle. And if, along the way, Bowen ends up on the floor or fending off an elbow to his face, so be it. "Just part of the game," he says.
Some teams need that kind of toughness more than others. Indeed, the Phoenix Suns, who wrapped up a sweep of the Memphis Grizzlies with a 123-115 win on Sunday, want to run you rather than wrestle you. But as Bowen's comrade in chaos, El Contusion, well knows, at this time of year, those who don't bruise usually lose.
:pi dont make jokes
Last edited by samikeyp; 10-12-2005 at 07:14 AM.
Mr. Lawyer man, I really struggle to understand your logic.
You have an opinion, and I have an opinion, but since my opinion is different than yours, I am, as you would say, two sticks short of being stupid, never played ball in my life, regurgitating somebody else's points, etc ....
So what does it make your opinion more valid than somebody else's? Why aren't you the one being stupid when you throw out opinions with absolutely NOTHING to back it up other than more of your own opinions?
I doubt how they run things in your law class. How do you argue in class? I just don't agree, this is my opinion?
If you think Ray Allen can open up the offense, then say why this would benefit the Spurs. Manu, Barry and Horry opened up the offense for Duncan, so why would dishing out another $15 million for a spot up shooter be worth it.
Bowen finished #2 in DPoY voting, and finished 1st team D two years in a row, how can you possibly justify that pluggin Ray Allen in will leave the D exactly as potent as it was?
I44...were you able to work out the salaries on the Allen deal?
I just can't believe this crap is still going strong.
Got the people mixed up again? I never said anything about sentence structure, I don't care. And I never knew that Socrates speak English. And next time during your court hearing, don't mix up the Judge with the defendent.
Let's see, Isiah screwed up Toronto, inherited a Pacer team that made it to the Finals the previous year and made it into a 41-41 team that got outsed in the first round. His last year as a coach, the Pacers finished 48-34, and once again got outsed in the first round. The following year, Rick Carlisle took over, and led the team to 61-21 and the ECF. But it doesn't matter to you, because according to you, making the playoffs 4 out of 9 years is a sign of a winner. We just have very different standards.
You don't think they get open looks that bruce does? You mean the Bulls team with Jordan and Pippen didn't command the same defensive attention as Duncan does? What about the year Kerr was a Spur? I guess the defenders were looking at the tape in year 2003, and thought, "hey, this Bowen guy is leading the league in 3pt shooting %, let's leave him alone and double team Duncan".
I apologize for not being able to look into the alternate universe that you live in. Bruce with the Sonics will be disasterous. The Sonics will be worse than they were, because they will have zero offense. Now, my argument has never been Bowen > Allen. My argument is that Bowen is better than Allen defensively, and way better at that, and he fits in with the Spurs system because the Spurs doesn't need the offense that Allen can bring, and does need the defense that Bowen could bring.
Wow, so you were expecting a TOTAL lock down where Billups have to score ZERO points? Whatever happened to your making the playoffs 4 out of 9 years = lead teams to win standards?
Oh, let's not talk about how they do in games, let's talk about how they do with nobody guarding him, shooting a bunch of 3's from behind the rack. What is it? Bowen leading the league in 3pt% helps the Spurs win, while him getting invited to the All Star game doesn't? Wow, I never thought of it that way.
And him leading the league in 3pt shooting indicates that he had enough attempts to qualify. Is it that hard to comprehend?
Did you mean Alonzo Mourning? The guy would played 13 games, and averaged 23.5 minutes? While ferociously grabbing 7.8 rebounds and 2.4 blocks. But what happened in the other 69 games? Probably it was Duane Causwell, or was it Brian Grant? I mean, you can't possibly mean A.C. Green, could you?
Ray Allen is a Joe Schmoe on defense, he is a marginal defensive player.
Last edited by ambchang; 10-12-2005 at 11:07 AM.
what are you talking about ? you questioned my knowledge - this whole post has been people attacking my opinion article and me defending it. Your opinion might be the right one and mine might be the wrong one - There is no way to prove who is better for the spurs - it is all opinion. cnn - implacable - ambchang - whomever - it is opinion.
WHen was Bowen 1st team all defense two years in a row ? get the facts straight before you post or did you knowingly post a lie ?
The offense is opened up ? is that why tim shot 42% in the finals vs 49.6% for the season and 50.7% for his career? Did you not see how Tim was rendered ineffective in the 4th quarter due to being double and triple teamed ? again this is all opinions and you might be right - I think a different way though.
for clarification:
Bruce has been NBA all defense 4 years straight.
'01, '02, '03 on 2nd team.
'04 on 1st team.
You didnt get people mixed up buddy - you left words out. Socrates doesn't have to speak English - sentence structure and words are important in every language. How did Isaiah screw up Toronto ? he had MCgrady, Vince, Damon Stoudemire when he was good and you say he screwed it up ? You think that was Rick Carlisle that turned that around ? the same guy who couldnt get the Pistons over the hump and LB comes in and they win the le ? that was LArry Bird turning things around. The Bulls - Jordan and Pippen were perimeter players and Tim is in the Low post - on the block - more space between the block and the 3-point line. Are you that inept that you can't accept the fact that Bowen gets more open looks on the perimeter than any of those people because - regardless of his percentage - he takes too few shots in the course of a game for the coach to worry about stopping bruce bowen - teams figure hey if he can hit it than we will lose - if he cant then we will be in good shape.
AND THEN?
Hmmm ... calling people stupid, idiot, etc .. is defending?
Of course we question your knowledge, how could getting Ray Allen and Jerome James, two chronic underachiever until their contract year, for a defensive anchor in Bowen.
Perhaps we have different calendar, but the way I was brought up, 2004 and 2005 are consecutive years. Perhaps it is your opinion that it isn't, but I believe the general population has accepted that as a fact.
While I am on the subject of regurgitating other people's opinions (some would say facts), I thought I might find two credible sources to back me up.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...bowenbr01.html
BTW, nba.com only said 2004, because they haven't updated it to 2004 and 2005.
Tim being doubled and tripled was either a fact or not. he was either double teamed, or he wasn't. One thing I have to understand though, Ben Wallace, the reigning defensive player of the year, was credited with effectively guarding Tim Duncan 1 on 1, and then the double team usually come from Rasheed Wallace. But then, neither of them usually guards Bowen. How was ANY double team on Tim = people leaving Bowen wide open?
When I quote you, I quote who posts, I NEVER take words out. If I did, show me the quote and tell me exactly which words I took out from your post. Go ahead, I challenge you.
Isiah Thomas drafted Damon Stoudemire, and what a wonderful draft that was. Where the is he now? Thomas left Toronto in 1998 in a cloud of controversy, and then Carter joined in 1999, McGrady came even later. Dude, if you want to question other people's facts, get yours straight. You are an embarrassment.
As for Larry Bird comment, I GAVE him credit. Learn the Pacers recent history before you post, OK?
Bird led the Pacers to the finals. Thomas took over, and then there were three years where he can't get them past the first round. Carlisle came in, and got them a 61-21 record and a ECF appearance. You are right, Carlisle couldn't get the Pistons over the hump, but he still BETTER than Thomas, your basketball God.
If you watch the Bulls in the late 90's, you will see that Jordan post his man up a LOT in the blocks. You will also see other teams doubling him constantly, regardless of whether he is in the perimeter or the post. And you want to talk about attempts? He shoots 3 3s in a game, making 1 to 2 a game. That's about 4 points, on 3s alone, every game. Now show me what Kerr shot in his career.
Ray Allen is an underacheiver? a perrenial all-star and all-nba'er ( 2nd team last year) - some sources have him as the 5th best guard and almost all have him as top 10 and you say he is an underacheiver? I guess we do have different standards. Jerome James - yes - but maybe he will continue to play hard and work and this will be his breakout year - I mean look how much money the spurs gave Malik Rose.
I will take your word for it - interestingly enough Kobe was first team all defense in '04 too.
it is called rotations - - the man they are willing to leave is bruce bowen.
In response to people calling me those things and worse - yes
I wouldn't say Allen is an underachiever. I think he is a of a player. The only problem I have had with him is his whining. If he was a marginal player that would be one thing but he is way too good to act like that. I would not mind having Allen on the Spurs but I would not like what would probably have to be given up.
you challenge me to point out your lying, deceiving ways ? 0 okay my actual quote should have been : Bowen led the league in 3 point shooting in 2003 ? are you talking percentage when he put up 229 ? You know there is a reason bruce doesnt get invited to the all-star game for the 3-point shoot out?
and you left it out. look up the year he led the league at .414 he took 229 attempts - look it up !!!!!! you have been measured and found wanting.
mine are straight - what recent history would you have me learn ? bird led them to the finals - quit and thomas came in - bird went incognito - then he came back in his current role and fired isaiah and brought in his buddy Rick and they still can't get back to the finals. as far as my Raptors facts - Mcgrady's first season in the league was in '97 skippy and Isaiah was part owner and executive of the raptors until 1998 -- carter was a coach - not a part owner / executive. - get those facts right!
yeah I figured you would try to say Jordan posted up on the block - which he did but he mostly did that in his second come back not in the early 90's and when he did do it he was not in the low block - more like in the 8 - 10 foot jumper range which was perfect for his fade-a-way turn around J. He is still a guard and most of his play was on the perimeter.
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