Big Dummy, I NEVER said he was on '87-'88 Jordan's level but that he's the only one that has scored at just an efficient rate while playing just as good a defense. It's not like I made the comparison b/c they are relatively the same size, have giant hands & shoot fadeaways.
Kawhi is much closer to Pippen than MJ. Leonard's more efficient (due to the team's style) while Pipp was the better playmaker.
So, Kawhi playing w/ Aldridge in a 90s ISO offense is a "better system" than Pippen playing off Jordan in the triangle? If anything Pippen should be more efficient since he got a LOT of transition buckets b/c the Bulls used to generate a lot of turnovers.
Jordan on the other was better at everything offensively besides threes.
Jordan's bread & butter in the half-court was postups & mid-ranges, two things Kawhi does at an elite level. Pippen had a mid-range game where he would jab step & shoot if the defender is back off but his post-ups were more like Magic where he would backdown for layups or find cutters out of the post.
Just look at how many transition buckets 25 yr old Pippen used to get:
I mean you're comparing 24-25 year old Kawhi to people . .bro Jordan was averaging 35-37 PPG at 23-24 years old lol.
Bruh, I think I already broke it down for you. Kawhi at 25 is scoring as many points per shot as '87-'88 Jordan. Kawhi is averaging 17 shots while Jordan was averaging 24 shots which makes him as much of a gunner as WestBrick.
Kawhi is WAY MORE EFFICIENT than Kirby who had the luxury of playing off PEAK Shaq in the same system as Jordan under the same coach.
Kawhi is putting up numbers comparable to MJ at the same age.
Unless I'm missing something, this seems to be a thread of perspective: Kawhi Leonard has become a player that you can can compare to someone who's considered to be the GOAT when it comes to stats at the same age.
That's pretty ing impressive - and thread worthy.
Some folks are underestimating the power of the 3 point shot which wasn't part of Jordan's repertoire early in his career but Kawhi has been able to convert those long 2s into 3s which has enable him to be just as an efficient scorer as '87-'88 Jordan while Wade for example had to earn it the hard way which is why I consider him Jordan 2.0
-Parker was a superstar caliber player for a few seasons
-He was a Top 5 player in the league in 2012-2013, if not Top 3
-When its all said and done, Kawhi will be remembered as the superior player which is by no means a knock on MVParker (but Porker can off)
Wade's definitely the closest I've seen to Jordan. Kobe had great cosmetics, like an Elvis impersonator, but Wade's game and attack - offensively, specifically - were much more MJ.
People who've experienced Jordan mostly through highlights, don't realize his game aged into what Kobe tried to mimic or that the shrug after the 6 threes in Portland was because he wasn't a 3-point shooter. , Wade even got complacent at the free-throw line like Jordan.
Kawhi's his own dude. Pretty damn impressive to be able to draw statistical comparisons to some of the best that ever played, but don't know that there's a direct comparison. Which is pretty ing cool, too.
Big Dummy, I NEVER said he was on '87-'88 Jordan's level but that he's the only one that has scored at just an efficient rate while playing just as good a defense. It's not like I made the comparison b/c they are relatively the same size, have giant hands & shoot fadeaways.
So, Kawhi playing w/ Aldridge in a 90s ISO offense is a "better system" than Pippen playing off Jordan in the triangle? If anything Pippen should be more efficient since he got a LOT of transition buckets b/c the Bulls used to generate a lot of turnovers.
Jordan's bread & butter in the half-court was postups & mid-ranges, two things Kawhi does at an elite level. Pippen had a mid-range game where he would jab step & shoot if the defender is back off but his post-ups were more like Magic where he would backdown for layups or find cutters out of the post.
Just look at how many transition buckets 25 yr old Pippen used to get:
Bruh, I think I already broke it down for you. Kawhi at 25 is scoring as many points per shot as '87-'88 Jordan. Kawhi is averaging 17 shots while Jordan was averaging 24 shots which makes him as much of a gunner as WestBrick.
Kawhi is WAY MORE EFFICIENT than Kirby who had the luxury of playing off PEAK Shaq in the same system as Jordan under the same coach.
Yeah, I'm a dummy because I pointed out how your logic is easily applied to an even greater effect by pointing out the difference in their offensive ability to debunk your "point". Makes sense; oh wait it doesn't. If you have no defense for your bad logic, say nothing or admit you're wrong instead of be a and insult. Be consistent or stop speaking.
Kawhi's scoring is not near Jordan's. Both volume and efficiency both count otherwise we might as well bring up role players too.
Bruh, I think I already broke it down for you. Kawhi at 25 is scoring as many points per shot as '87-'88 Jordan
You didn't break anything down besides common sense. Again, his volume of points is no where near. We might as well include role players then. Kyle Korver scores more points per shot than Jordan, , he's just as good if not better an offensive player as Jordan! I mean, it's a fair argument too right? He scores about as much less than Kawhi as Kawhi does Jordan.
This is why your logic sucks dude. Jordan dominated way more offensive plays and carried a much bigger load. You realize Jordan averaged about as many offensive win shares as Kawhi's first four seasons combined right? And about double Kawhi's best season ever. His offense is not close to Jordan's. There is no argument there. Less shots = more likely to be more efficient since you get to take better ones since you don't have to force anything. This is why roleplayers tend to have high efficiency, and why "stars" who don't take a ton of shots also often have really high efficiency (such as James Harden before leaving the Thunder).
I agree. Jordan didn't ring until his 7th year in the league.
That's right and he had to keep elevating his game to overcome frustrations to get there. Kawhi been elevating his game each season at a scary rate tbh.
You didn't break anything down besides common sense. Again, his volume of points is no where near. We might as well include role players then. Kyle Korver scores more points per shot than Jordan, , he's just as good if not better an offensive player as Jordan! I mean, it's a fair argument too right? He scores about as much less than Kawhi as Kawhi does Jordan.
Kawhi is top 5 in the number of 20+ games this season & averaging 24 as the first option. Korver has NEVER been the 1st option & was ranked 84th in scoring when he had that ridiculous shooting season in '13-'14.
Your logic sucks
There is no argument there. Less shots = more likely to be more efficient since you get to take better ones since you don't have to force anything. This is why roleplayers tend to have high efficiency, and why "stars" who don't take a ton of shots also often have really high efficiency (such as James Harden before leaving the Thunder).
Big Dummy, Kawhi increased his scoring from last season by 3 points while MAINTAINING his efficiency.
When they set their career high PPG season, Curry/Durant INCREASED their EFFICIENCY & so did Jordan.
Wade's definitely the closest I've seen to Jordan. Kobe had great cosmetics, like an Elvis impersonator, but Wade's game and attack - offensively, specifically - were much more MJ.
People who've experienced Jordan mostly through highlights, don't realize his game aged into what Kobe tried to mimic or that the shrug after the 6 threes in Portland was because he wasn't a 3-point shooter. , Wade even got complacent at the free-throw line like Jordan.
Kawhi's his own dude. Pretty damn impressive to be able to draw statistical comparisons to some of the best that ever played, but don't know that there's a direct comparison. Which is pretty ing cool, too.
Most of their per 100 possession stats (including DRtg/ORtg & PER) are basically the same except for Jordan taking 7 more shots to average 4 more points & having 3% more usage rate to average one more assist. I can confidently say Kawhi can match Jordan's scoring average if his TS% took a 4 point hit.
Yikes, getting carried away here. Kawhi and Pippen is an interesting comparison. Both great defenders. I give Kawhi the nod in scoring, but Pippen the nod in playmaking. But Jordan? Come on. Kawhi isn't better than prime LeBron, so he's absolutely not better than prime Jordan. Yes, Kawhi is a fantastic defender, probably better than Jordan, though Jordan was damn good (the Bulls used to kill guards with Jordan, Pippen, and Harper playing all at the same time). But as a scorer, Jordan was as good a shooter inside the three point line as Kawhi, but he was even better driver and finisher. His offensive game in the paint is elite. I would say Kawhi is still an average finisher in the paint (not that he isn't an overall great scorer, but he's not elite finisher, just a good one). Plus, as great as Kawhi has been, Jordan willed his team to consistent greatness. Kawhi may get there, but he's not there yet.
Yikes, getting carried away here. Kawhi and Pippen is an interesting comparison. Both great defenders. I give Kawhi the nod in scoring, but Pippen the nod in playmaking. But Jordan? Come on. Kawhi isn't better than prime LeBron, so he's absolutely not better than prime Jordan. Yes, Kawhi is a fantastic defender, probably better than Jordan, though Jordan was damn good (the Bulls used to kill guards with Jordan, Pippen, and Harper playing all at the same time). But as a scorer, Jordan was as good a shooter inside the three point line as Kawhi, but he was even better driver and finisher. His offensive game in the paint is elite. I would say Kawhi is still an average finisher in the paint (not that he isn't an overall great scorer, but he's not elite finisher, just a good one). Plus, as great as Kawhi has been, Jordan willed his team to consistent greatness. Kawhi may get there, but he's not there yet.
Kawhi has experienced nothing but greatness since he entered the league, tbh. Both individually and as part of a team.
Kawhi has experienced nothing but greatness since he entered the league, tbh. Both individually and as part of a team.
He's been great, but not Jordan great. When he came into the league, he had the benefit of Tim, Tony, and Manu. The last two years, he flamed out in the playoffs. To be Jordanesque, he's got to be great in the playoffs, and especially great as the lead dog. He's had the lead dog role for the last two years with somewhat disappointing playoff results, but this year may be different and the shadow of Tim Duncan is gone, so Kawhi will get the credit this year if the Spurs go deep in the playoffs and he'll get the blame if they don't.
He's been great, but not Jordan great. When he came into the league, he had the benefit of Tim, Tony, and Manu. The last two years, he flamed out in the playoffs. To be Jordanesque, he's got to be great in the playoffs, and especially great as the lead dog. He's had the lead dog role for the last two years with somewhat disappointing playoff results, but this year may be different and the shadow of Tim Duncan is gone, so Kawhi will get the credit this year if the Spurs go deep in the playoffs and he'll get the blame if they don't.
It took Jordan quite some time to accomplish greatness in the playoffs, tbh. Kawhi won finals MVP at age 23. I'm not trying to compare them, MJ is the GOAT, I just wanted to point out that Kawhi has reached a lot more "greatness" earlier in his career than Jordan, tbh.
Yikes, getting carried away here. Kawhi and Pippen is an interesting comparison. Both great defenders. I give Kawhi the nod in scoring, but Pippen the nod in playmaking. But Jordan? Come on. Kawhi isn't better than prime LeBron, so he's absolutely not better than prime Jordan. Yes, Kawhi is a fantastic defender, probably better than Jordan, though Jordan was damn good (the Bulls used to kill guards with Jordan, Pippen, and Harper playing all at the same time). But as a scorer, Jordan was as good a shooter inside the three point line as Kawhi, but he was even better driver and finisher. His offensive game in the paint is elite. I would say Kawhi is still an average finisher in the paint (not that he isn't an overall great scorer, but he's not elite finisher, just a good one). Plus, as great as Kawhi has been, Jordan willed his team to consistent greatness. Kawhi may get there, but he's not there yet.
Consistent greatness?
'87-'88 was Jordan's first MVP season & the Bulls only only won 50 games before eventually losing in the 2nd rd.
The Bulls in '86-'87 were basically the equivalent of the '06 Lakers & Jordan was stat padding like Kirby.
Jordan was 28 when he won his first championship. He didn't just start winning them right off the bat.
Kawhi is 25 right now.
Yes, but Jordan was on a lottery like team his first few years. Kawhi walked into a team full of NBA champs and has basically played with all-stars. Even before Pippen was great, Jordan was already ascendant. No disrespect to Kawhi, I hope he is better than Jordan as am not a fan of Jordan and I am a huge Spur fan, but before I start comparing Kawhi to Jordan, he needs to play on Jordan's level for a whole season and the playoffs. He's having a great season, let's see where he takes the Spurs before we start the Jordan comparisons.
Yes, but Jordan was on a lottery like team his first few years. Kawhi walked into a team full of NBA champs and has basically played with all-stars. Even before Pippen was great, Jordan was already ascendant. No disrespect to Kawhi, I hope he is better than Jordan as am not a fan of Jordan and I am a huge Spur fan, but before I start comparing Kawhi to Jordan, he needs to play on Jordan's level for a whole season and the playoffs. He's having a great season, let's see where he takes the Spurs before we start the Jordan comparisons.
Kawhi is an MVP level player. No one cares if you don't like the comparisons.
Yes, but Jordan was on a lottery like team his first few years. Kawhi walked into a team full of NBA champs and has basically played with all-stars. Even before Pippen was great, Jordan was already ascendant. No disrespect to Kawhi, I hope he is better than Jordan as am not a fan of Jordan and I am a huge Spur fan, but before I start comparing Kawhi to Jordan, he needs to play on Jordan's level for a whole season and the playoffs. He's having a great season, let's see where he takes the Spurs before we start the Jordan comparisons.
Statistically, Kawhi can be there, he's putting numbers than just prime Tim had on the Spurs. But this comparison between Jordan and Kawhi is stupid. No one was, is, or will be better than him. Neither LeBron, who has more flaws than people want to admit.
But I wouldn't use the line of "Jordan was already ascendat" before Pippen. Because when a young player like Kawhi plays on a stacked team with multiple HoFs it's likely he won't have the ball in his hands and won't make an instant impact on offense. That young player won't have the opportunities to develop his whole game until he gets traded or those HoFs get old...
Jordan playing in a weak team in his early 20's was ascendat for the simple reason he didn't have to share the ball with guys like Spurs Big3 and his development was in other way than Kawhi's