Not including their compe ion when they didn't win seems like defeating the purpose though doesn't it? Why wouldn't you include their whole road since becoming arguably "championship caliber"? I think it'd be fair to start LBJ's clock right before going to Miami and including all those years til now. MJ not beating Detroit was certainly considered an MJ failure back then; they said his game would never result in a le. This talk was back in at least '88 I'm pretty sure. LeBron got a lot of that "will never win" talk pre Miami too.


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