#freeMurray?

[DAF86]

Why is this an issue? He's played Parker at the two. He played Neal at the one. He played Hill at the two. Pop clearly doesn't care about making sure Murray plays only one position. That's just not how basketball works. Murray would likely play next to another PG for stretches no matter how good he is. Curry and Irving do it all the time. This just a coping mechanism in my mind.

And who cares if he will not have the same physical advantages on the wing? Is Murray having to learn to play without being able to depend on his size not a good thing? Hill played SF for the Spurs at points. Murray would be well served to learn the two's game on both ends, whether he ends up playing a ton at SG once he becomes an established player or not. He'll be doing plenty of off-guard work with Kawhi handling the ball, and he'll have to switch onto bigger guys all the time in the Spurs' defensive scheme. No one is JUST a PG nowadays.

I don't know, ask Pop. To me it's clear he doesn't want to play Murray at the wing 'cause he hasn't even tried it, and don't come at me with the "he's not good enough" 'cause that's clearly not true. When Tony returned, after his long injury break in which Murray shined, it was the perfect moment for Pop to mantain Dejounte in the rotation as a wing, specially 'cause Simmons was injured at that moment if I'm not mistaken, but he didn't. Why didn't he ride Murray's high on that moment? Only reasonable explanation is 'cause he just doesn't see Murray as a wing.

[SAGirl]

I don't entirely disagree or agree with Chinook or Manu4tres. I am in between bc I think he didn't really get the chance this season. It's just not his time and he's raw. The sign is that he was catching a rhythm and playing very well considering limited samples and soon as that happened he was benched not to be seen again. He didn't deserved to be benched back then. It just happened bc he wasn't going to displace Tony or anyone else this season... it wasn't realistic.

He wasn't drafted as a defensive specialist or a niche guy. To get the best advantage of his talent he needs to develop his game with the ball and it wasn't going to happen this season bc he was bound to struggle. I tend to think he'd kept getting better bc we didn't see a rookie wall. He never really got much of a chance though.

So it is what it is. He has more time to improve bc he came in with areas that needed improvement.

Next season we shall see what happens.

[SAGirl]

No, he doesn't. He'd need to do that to start at PG, not to get into the guard rotation in general. To do that he just needs to be the 10th-best player.

Not really. He's a 3rd string PG.
I can make a compelling case that the 10th best player has actually been Davis Bertans.

ppl want him to play as a wing too and displace Simmons who can't shoot and may be problematic in the playoffs... He's not going to do that though bc he's a big. He's the 5th big and he's blocked in playing time by guys who are better at his position, or quite simply are playing so well the team is winning and they don't deserve to be benched. Playing guys out of position does take away their advantages. It's something they can do in weird lineups by the opponents, and maybe if there are injuries there's no other option.

I think Murray can give minutes as a wing personally, but he's not ideal bc he's too skinny right this moment... and he's still learning how to deal with bigger, stronger guys. Spurs switch everything a lot so he'd have to guard a lot of different guys... but he's not better than Simmons at that (and neither is Davis on defense, who is still learning to execute what Pop wants on D)... Anyways the point is that he has the good luck to have been allocated a spot for development, same as Davis, which means he has a niche and bodes well for him. Kyle has been all over the map and ended up nowhere that way.

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

Murray is a PG who has a 5 TO/per 36 mins ratio and 1.1 assist to turnover. That's worse than anyone notable, bar Dedmon. It's bad.

He's shown flashes and it's clear why they like him but he's far from being a contributor. He should be playing more, but in Austin. I think him being glued to the bench lately hasn't been good for him, he should play regularly in Austin and make his turnovers there until he's ready to go next year or the year after.

[Chinook]

I don't know, ask Pop. To me it's clear he doesn't want to play Murray at the wing 'cause he hasn't even tried it, and don't come at me with the "he's not good enough" 'cause that's clearly not true.

It's clearly true to people who actually remember his performance and don't just act like his good/decent moments carry the day. Murry hasn't been good, and all that bull people try to peddle about DeJounte's record doesn't actually matter. The Spurs are great at compensating, especially in designated rest games. It's been that way for a half-dozen years now.

When Tony returned, after his long injury break in which Murray shined, it was the perfect moment for Pop to mantain Dejounte in the rotation as a wing, specially 'cause Simmons was injured at that moment if I'm not mistaken, but he didn't. Why didn't he ride Murray's high on that moment?

Because he wasn't good enough. Even when Murray starts, Mills gets the bulk of the minutes and all of the crunch-time reps. That should tell you that Pop thinks Murray is definitely worse. You can disagree with him (how, I don't know), but it's obvious that DeJounte is not a good player held down but a bit player who's shown flashes.

Only reasonable explanation is 'cause he just doesn't see Murray as a wing.

I feel like I've been dropped in some alternate reality where Pop hasn't actually been Pop over the years. We're talking about a dude who's played a three-PG lineup before. The same dude who was gushing about a Parker/Kidd starting back court. The guy who had the Parker/Ford "Proto-death Lineup". It doesn't matter what the he sees Murray as. He'd play two PGs together if that is what gave him the best chance to win. , he often closes with his two best play-making guards as it is, and damned sure did that before those two got old.

Pop can be wrong, and DeJounte could be the missing piece to this year's puzzle if only he got starting minutes. I wouldn't believe that for a second, but I've been wrong before. But , to act like Pop would stick to this whole "he's a PG and thus will only play PG minutes even if there are two-guard minutes available" idea comes out of Spurs fanfiction.

[MultiTroll]

Because he wasn't good enough. Even when Murray starts, Mills gets the bulk of the minutes and all of the crunch-time reps. That should tell you that Pop thinks Murray is definitely worse. You can disagree with him (how, I don't know), but it's obvious that DeJounte is not a good player held down but a bit player who's shown flashes.

Murray has started and gotten 20+ minutes only about 5 games. 5-0, most notably the Cleveland win. Almost every one the Spurs have a nice lead by halftime and Murray played very well.
That *CIA Pop* decided to limit his minutes is not because Murray played poorly nor got outplayed by Patty. He didn't.
His assist/turnover ratio would undoubtedly get better as he gets more on court time with the starters. It already is better in just these 5 games where he got more minutes.

Bares repeating, Matt Bonner started all 5 playoff games in not-that-long-ago's 2011s 1-4 1st round blowout.
"Pop always gives playing time according to merit."
"Pop treats everyone the same, he doesn't have pets."
Bull myths.

[Chinook]

Murray has started and gotten 20+ minutes only about 5 games. 5-0, most notably the Cleveland win. Almost every one the Spurs have a nice lead by halftime and Murray played very well.

Think about how trivial what you're saying is. You're saying every time Murray's played well enough to get extended minutes, he's played well. Well, duh. If he played like , he would have been benched, like he's been in quite a few games. This is just proof that Pop will ride a hot hand and reward play. Nothing about those games forced Pop to play Murray a ton if he didn't want to.

That *CIA Pop* decided to limit his minutes is not because Murray played poorly nor got outplayed by Patty.

Yep.

His assist/turnover ratio would undoubtedly get better as he gets more on court time with the starters.

Hopefully, but you know what would get worse? The A:TO of the starting lineup (along with other things).

It already is better in just these 5 games where he got more minutes.

Yeah, it was 1.3:1 as a starter.

Bares repeating, Matt Bonner started all 5 playoff games in not-that-long-ago's 2011s 1-4 1st round blowout.

It was 2-4. Not a blowout, but definitely a disappointment. People want to remember this as a year where Bonner was horrible and Splitter was good. But in reality, Bonner was pretty good and Splitter was horrible but showed flashes of brilliance. The Spurs lost the front-court battle in that series because Tim was going through his Done-can phase. He just couldn't handle Z-Bo. Matt had what was arguably his best post-season that year. His net rating was 28. ing 28. Highest WS/48 on the team. Better on/offs than Tim and Tiago.

Yes, it bares repeating that if Spurs fans hate a player, they will make up an alternative history.

"Pop always gives playing time according to merit."

I don't think anyone's ever said this. But I don't really know of anyone who's become anything more than a replaceable rotation player who couldn't get off Pop's bench. Murray's a semi-prized first-rounder -- can't get off the bench. Players like Neal and RMJ come out of the woods -- get rotation spots.

"Pop treats everyone the same, he doesn't have pets."

You should know that as a Green homer, I don't believe that for a second. In fact, it's very clear that Murray is Pop's new "pet".

[MultiTroll]

I meant 2009 Playoff Bonner.
My bad.
Started all 5 games.
.217 and .231 along with his signature D.
and Popped left the F'r in the games.

[MultiTroll]

Think about how trivial what you're saying is. You're saying every time Murray's played well enough to get extended minutes, he's played well. Well, duh. If he played like , he would have been benched, like he's been in quite a few games. This is just proof that Pop will ride a hot hand and reward play. Nothing about those games forced Pop to play Murray a ton if he didn't want to.

You should know that as a Green homer, I don't believe that for a second. In fact, it's very clear that Murray is Pop's new "pet".

Another poster had a direct quote from Pop that he does not believe in the hot hand.

Very clear that Parker is Pops old pet.
Also Ginobili, who absolutely should play. Except when he is Alzheimers GNob and the problem is Popped waits until the game is lost instead of pulling GNob during one of his Alzheimers episodes. Thanks for farking Tim Duncan and us out of 2013s in the bag Championship.

[Chinook]

I meant 2009 Playoff Bonner.
My bad.
Started all 5 games.
.217 and .231 along with his signature D.
and Popped left the F'r in the games.

Who should have played more? Every big besides Duncan and Fabra was awful. And Oberto was so done that they traded him away in the RJ deal that off-season. And that was obviously not a case of Pop favoring Matt over Oberto because of seniority. He was on the team for a year-and-a-half before the team traded for Bonner.

I agree Matt sucked that year, but so did the entire front court. That's why they lobbied for Gooden during the buyout period, drafted Blair and sign Dice and Theo that summer.

Another poster had a direct quote from Pop that he does not believe in the hot hand.

Pop may well have a quote that says that. But either it's in a different context or Pop was lying his ass off. He like every other coach will give guys more run if they're playing well. All you have to do is look at the splits for bit players.

Very clear that Parker is Pops old pet.

Yeah, from like 2005. He has a new one now. He doesn't let his old pet close out most games.

[duncan2k5]

U are nuts...he is more than ready for minutes...which point guards have u been watching? Waaah worse point guards are getting minutes

[Chinook]

U are nuts...he is more than ready for minutes...which point guards have u been watching? Waaah worse point guards are getting minutes

I'm sure they are in Austin.

[DAF86]

It's clearly true to people who actually remember his performance and don't just act like his good/decent moments carry the day. Murry hasn't been good, and all that bull people try to peddle about DeJounte's record doesn't actually matter. The Spurs are great at compensating, especially in designated rest games. It's been that way for a half-dozen years now.



Because he wasn't good enough. Even when Murray starts, Mills gets the bulk of the minutes and all of the crunch-time reps. That should tell you that Pop thinks Murray is definitely worse. You can disagree with him (how, I don't know), but it's obvious that DeJounte is not a good player held down but a bit player who's shown flashes.



I feel like I've been dropped in some alternate reality where Pop hasn't actually been Pop over the years. We're talking about a dude who's played a three-PG lineup before. The same dude who was gushing about a Parker/Kidd starting back court. The guy who had the Parker/Ford "Proto-death Lineup". It doesn't matter what the he sees Murray as. He'd play two PGs together if that is what gave him the best chance to win. , he often closes with his two best play-making guards as it is, and damned sure did that before those two got old.

Pop can be wrong, and DeJounte could be the missing piece to this year's puzzle if only he got starting minutes. I wouldn't believe that for a second, but I've been wrong before. But , to act like Pop would stick to this whole "he's a PG and thus will only play PG minutes even if there are two-guard minutes available" idea comes out of Spurs fanfiction.

Murray's numbers don't look good because 1) he was beyond awful to start the season (Lapro was getting minutes over him) and 2) because a good chunk of his minutes are meaningless garbage time. When he got his chance of playing regular minutes over an extended period of time, the kid delivered. I don't know why the you are acting like he has been so bad to the point of not even being worth trying him at the wing over the tiness that has been the Simmons/Anderson duo in some stretches of this season.

Same with Bertans, if Pop was so open to playing his best 10 men regardless of positions, why hasn't Bertans had a at least the chance to prove he can be a better option than Simmons and/or Anderson on the wings?

[Chinook]

Murray's numbers don't look good because 1) he was beyond awful to start the season (Lapro was getting minutes over him)

So these are his splits from before (left) and after (right) of the Lapra waiving:

G	15	20
GS	2	5
MP	36	36
FG	6.11	5.76
FGA	14.26	13.68
FG%	45	43
3P	1.36	1.08
3PA	2.04	3.24
3P%	60	35
FT	2.72	2.52
FTA	5.43	2.88
FT%	50	87
ORB	0.68	0.72
DRB	4.08	3.60
TRB	4.75	3.96
AST	4.75	5.76
STL	0.68	1.08
BLK	0.00	1.08
TOV	4.75	4.68
PF	4.08	3.24
PTS	16.98	15.12
GmSc	1.10	2.40
+/-	-1.70	1.10

There are some notable areas of improvement, but also others that are the same or worse. The biggest difference has been the total minutes rather than the performance in those minutes.

2) because a good chunk of his minutes are meaningless garbage time.

Not recently. Dude keeps getting benched for making mistakes. The percentage of his minutes that are in garbage time has gone down since the waiving.

I don't know why the you are acting like he has been so bad to the point of not even being worth trying him at the wing over the tiness that has been the Simmons/Anderson duo in some stretches of this season.

If you read my post history about Murray, you'd know that I've wanted him to get wing minutes this whole time. It's other posters who think a) He should only play PG and b) Pop agrees with their first point and as such won't play him there. I think Pop would totally play him there if he thought it was best for the team. It's not a damned conspiracy.

Same with Bertans, if Pop was so open to playing his best 10 men regardless of positions, why hasn't Bertans had a at least the chance to prove he can be a better option than Simmons and/or Anderson on the wings?

Because Bertans can't really guard on the perimeter at all. That's a huge deal, as Simmons is at least not horrible defensively and Kyle has been very strong.

[DAF86]

If you read my post history about Murray, you'd know that I've wanted him to get wing minutes this whole time. It's other posters who think a) He should only play PG and b) Pop agrees with their first point and as such won't play him there. I think Pop would totally play him there if he thought it was best for the team. It's not a damned conspiracy.

Nobody is talking about conspiracies, tbh. Pop doesn't play Murray at the wing for a reason. You think it is because Murray is just not good enough right now, I think it is because Pop prefers to play him at PG.

I don't think it's the whole "he just isn't good enough right now" thing because of a number of reasons:

1) You can't definitely say "he just isn't good enough right now" if you haven't even tried it. Give him a couple of games at the 2 and see what he can do before stating such a thing.

And 2) Whenever one of Patty or Tony are out, Murray does get playing time. If Pop thought "he isn't good enough" he wouldn't be so comfortable playing him extended minutes as the PG. He would get Manu to play PG or, more likely, sign a vet PG.

[DPG21920]

What? For as much as you don't like conjuncture from Chinook you sure use a lot in your reasonings.

At the end of the day, if Murray was a clear cut better player than any of the PG/SG's he would be getting more minutes. Period.

Also, you are failing to realize that Pop see's things not just with Murray, but guys like Bertans in practices and other areas when he's making his assessments. Stuff you would never see nor know about. How do you know in practice Murray isn't consistently messing up rotations, sets or other stuff?

It's not just the game time you see which leads to minutes. There are lots of things going on that all of us are naive about.

[Chinook]

You think it is because Murray is just not good enough right now, I think it is because Pop prefers to play him at PG.

Difference is, Pop has never, ever shown that he will not play two PGs together. He wanted to sign an All-NBA PG to play with his favorite up-and-coming PG in 2003. In 2008-2011, he started two PGs. In 2012, he raved about his two-PG lineup. He played three PGs together in 2013. He's played PGs together multiple times this same season. He simply doesn't have anything against doing it.

1) You can't definitely say "he just isn't good enough right now" if you haven't even tried it. Give him a couple of games at the 2 and see what he can do before stating such a thing.

That's not how it works. The guy has to show you he's worth the minutes first. Pop is likely content with Simmons seeing as he hasn't brought in another wing. God, do I disagree with him on that. But that's his call. But since's that's the case, he's not likely to be in the mood to "just try" Murray there. I've thought he should, especially when Manu is out. But he doesn't.

And 2) Whenever one of Patty or Tony are out, Murray does get playing time. If Pop thought "he isn't good enough" he wouldn't be so comfortable playing him extended minutes as the PG. He would get Manu to play PG or, more likely, sign a vet PG.

Wait, so Pop has to think Murray is good enough to be a starter/sixth man in order to give him the third-string job? Worst players than Murray have started games for him.

[MaNu4Tres]

You guys really have a lot of time on your hands.

So people disagree about this. Whats new?

Spurs are overwhelmed with proven players who have earned their keep and spots in the rotation for YEARS. They all have produced up to their expectations for the most part, they are all healthy and they all have attributed to being 2 games out of having the best record in the NBA. Pop isn't going to play a rookie over Manu, Green, Tony or Mills, no matter how well he plays. If this wasn't the case, Pop would have continued riding his hot hand after Tony came back from injury. But he didn't, no matter what he wasn't going to give Murray minutes over "his" guys who for years have earned their place year after year. It's just not Murrays time right now, even though he's played extremely well in games he gets more than 15 minutes.

And after a year of Simmons spending time in the, " he has to earn it" dog house ( even though he was obviously a better option than Martin to some-- including myself), Pop sat him for the playoffs because of Pops way of earning your due. Simmons has finally earned his due to get minutes after performing incredible well on the defensive end all season ( Pop values his D and him as a player more than most on here). So he's going to get any minutes first after Kawhi, Danny and Manu. He's earned it.

As for practices, Spurs hardly ever run full practices or full scrimmages during the year because of the crazy NBA schedule. Pop values rest more than running his team into the ground. So this notion that, " Pop may dislike what he sees in practice" is highly highly unlikely. They run light walk throughs, go over film and have light shoot around. The last 2-4 guys in the rotation run 2 on 2 and 3 on 3 to keep their games sharp but the others don't participate as extensively. That's the extent of 95% of the "practices" that go in during the season.

[DAF86]

What? For as much as you don't like conjuncture from Chinook you sure use a lot in your reasonings.

At the end of the day, if Murray was a clear cut better player than any of the PG/SG's he would be getting more minutes. Period.

I think nobody believes Murray is a clear cut better player than any of the PGs or wings on the team, but a lot of folks, me included, do believe that he isn't a clear cut worse player either, and he has, by far, the biggest upside of the bunch. That's why we want to see him out there getting his feet wet and getting some much needed on court experience.

Also, you are failing to realize that Pop see's things not just with Murray, but guys like Bertans in practices and other areas when he's making his assessments. Stuff you would never see nor know about. How do you know in practice Murray isn't consistently messing up rotations, sets or other stuff?

It's not just the game time you see which leads to minutes. There are lots of things going on that all of us are naive about.

The good old "coaches see things the fans can't", which is definitely true, but it is also true that sometimes coaches hesitate to play rookies in favour of players with more years in the system when playing the rookie would have helped the team more. There are many of these cases in every sport. Coaches up constantly, even the great ones.

Pop himself said Murray has a ton of potential and just needs playing time. Experience that you can't get from training or d-league games. That's what some of us are asking for, tbh

[midnightpulp]

Free him. Parker earned more playing time tonight, but House has yet to show any urgency. Murray should be the first PG off the bench for the next few games as a tester.

[DAF86]

Free him. Parker earned more playing time tonight, but House has yet to show any urgency. Murray should be the first PG off the bench for the next few games as a tester.

You can question a lot of things about Patty, but not his urgency, imho. That hustle where he got that re ed clear path foul is classic Patty effort.

[midnightpulp]

You can question a lot of things about Patty, but not his urgency, imho. That hustle where he got that re ed clear path foul is classic Patty effort.

Still sucks offensively. While he might be urgent on the court regarding "hustle plays," it doesn't look like that same urgency has translated to more work on his shot in the gym.

[MultiTroll]

Great game by Parker.
Oh wait, right on cue he hero balls with the game on the line and gets his pushed in.

[SASdynasty!]

Great game by Parker.
Oh wait, right on cue he hero balls with the game on the line and gets his pushed in.

19/6/3 on 50%. Best player on the court outside of Leonard/Harden tonight.

[spursistan]

Bump..

Earned his 10-12 MPG vs GSW, tbh..