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  1. #826
    Veteran Dverde's Avatar
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    Patty can really be a glue guy for us with our emo superstars. He’s overpaid but not worthless.

  2. #827
    Timmeehh TimmyBuckets's Avatar
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    Patty can really be a glue guy for us with our emo superstars. He’s overpaid but not worthless.

  3. #828
    Veteran SpursDynasty85's Avatar
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    Patty can really be a glue guy for us with our emo superstars. He’s overpaid but not worthless.
    True but eventually our guard rotation will force a trade or younger guys rotting at the bench.

  4. #829
    Still Sporting Ben Davis Allan Rowe vs Wade's Avatar
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    Fatty Stacks

  5. #830
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    Patty can really be a glue guy for us with our emo superstars. He’s overpaid but not worthless.
    Sadly he's been a terrible glue guy.

    Under Mills' locker room presence his star teammates have either asked for a trade or forced their way out in a trade after quitting.

    Maybe if he went back to waving a towel from the bench instead of playing he'd be better.

  6. #831
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    Saw this thread pop up and got scared for second..

  7. #832
    Veteran sasaint's Avatar
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    +1

    I also expect him to be better this year. He was bounced around a lot due to injuries and the drama with HWSNBN the 2nd, and should benefit from having a more consistent role. Having a guy like DeMar who can break down a defense and drive/kick helps guys like Mills/Bertans, etc..
    Trading Patty is an obsession with some ST posters. The truth is, whether he is starting or coming off the bench, he is likely going to be a Spur until at least the end of his current contract. Pop is not going to trade him. Pop sees great value in Patty, and that will only increase when (whenever) Manu calls it a day.

  8. #833
    Veteran SpursDynasty85's Avatar
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    Trading Patty is an obsession with some ST posters. The truth is, whether he is starting or coming off the bench, he is likely going to be a Spur until at least the end of his current contract. Pop is not going to trade him. Pop sees great value in Patty, and that will only increase when (whenever) Manu calls it a day.
    Yea probably wont happen but that means we will see more small ball. Belli, White, and Walker has to see minutes somewhere. Probably at the 3 then.

  9. #834
    Veteran cd021's Avatar
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    How do you figure 8%? Patty in those years will be making around $13M/yr. Clearly larger than 10% according to your estimates of salary cap.
    9.5% by year 4, and that would be assuming that the Spurs are just a cap space team. If they were to go over, he'd be a very small part of the actual team payroll. It's not like he's going to be taking up 18-20% of the cap in the final year of his deal and would be around about 10% in year 3

  10. #835
    Veteran cd021's Avatar
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    Yea probably wont happen but that means we will see more small ball. Belli, White, and Walker has to see minutes somewhere. Probably at the 3 then.
    I think Mills, White and Walker will eventually play together off the bench. If White and Walker live up to their potential as defenders then I think that is probably a non issue, plus all three are plus shooters.

    I don't think Mills is going to limit minutes for White or Walker and PATFO reportedly really likes both of them as players so that is almost certainly not going to happen.

  11. #836
    Veteran cd021's Avatar
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    Trading Patty is an obsession with some ST posters. The truth is, whether he is starting or coming off the bench, he is likely going to be a Spur until at least the end of his current contract. Pop is not going to trade him. Pop sees great value in Patty, and that will only increase when (whenever) Manu calls it a day.
    I don't think it is impossible that Mills gets moved, but probably not before year 3 or 4 of his deal. PATFO apparently really likes Derrick White, and based on R.Cs comments, they view Walker as a lottery level talent.

    If they need to carve out more playing time for those two /saving and or relocating money Mills could be a casualty.

  12. #837
    Veteran sasaint's Avatar
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    I don't think it is impossible that Mills gets moved, but probably not before year 3 or 4 of his deal. PATFO apparently really likes Derrick White, and based on R.Cs comments, they view Walker as a lottery level talent.

    If they need to carve out more playing time for those two /saving and or relocating money Mills could be a casualty.
    After Manu, Patty is the last true connection with the GOAT era. Get used to having him around.

    Judging by the way Pop buried White in Austin last season when he showed clear signs of being able to help the Spurs, I don't see all the love for him, tbh. Pop seems determined to force Murray into the PG slot and push the natural PG, White, into the SG slot.

    And Walker isn't the first "lottery caliber" player they have landed in the draft. Remember Kyle Anderson?

  13. #838
    Veteran cd021's Avatar
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    After Manu, Patty is the last true connection with the GOAT era. Get used to having him around.

    Judging by the way Pop buried White in Austin last season when he showed clear signs of being able to help the Spurs, I don't see all the love for him, tbh. Pop seems determined to force Murray into the PG slot and push the natural PG, White, into the SG slot.

    And Walker isn't the first "lottery caliber" player they have landed in the draft. Remember Kyle Anderson?

    -Anderson was a projected lottery pick that fell due to concerns about his remarkable lack of athleticism, speed, sketchy shooting, and defensive issues. Walker is the better prospect of the two at similar points in their career. He's an excellent athlete, good speed, solid shooter, and while he isn't a good defender, he has the tools to be good like Murray became.

    -Valid point on White and nothing that I haven't thought. PATFO clearly wanted Kuzma then Bradley but LA and Utah leapfrogged them and the Spurs ended up taking White. White was probably already better than Forbes last season, yet he played the fewest minutes of any Spurs 1st round rookie in a decade.

    With that being said; Jeff McDonald mentioned several times, on a recent Back to Back podcast, that the Spurs really liked White and that he could have a role on the team this season. With DeRozen on the team, Murray is probably going to be playing more like an SG anyways, though this shooting improvement that he's shown during the offseason would have to translate for that to not be a mess. White is a combo guard; he can certainly shoot well enough to be a full time 2 and has enough playmaking skills to share those responsibilities with Murray or DeRozen, though probably not this season.

    -White's skill set more closely resembles Mill's than Anderson's which has been a comp for him. With the cap set to e during year 3 and year 4 of Mills deal and White presumably continuing to improve and Mills probably beginning to decline, it wouldn't surprise me that the Spurs move Mills due to his expendability.

    Recent history has seen little roster turnover but the that has obviously changed. Kawhi, Green, and Parker had each played at least 7 seasons with the Spurs; after Manu and Mills, LMA is the longest tenured Spur now. Point being, that PATFO probably won't keep him around for sentimental reasons if the basketball reasons don't make sense too.

  14. #839
    Veteran sasaint's Avatar
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    -Anderson was a projected lottery pick that fell due to concerns about his remarkable lack of athleticism, speed, sketchy shooting, and defensive issues. Walker is the better prospect of the two at similar points in their career. He's an excellent athlete, good speed, solid shooter, and while he isn't a good defender, he has the tools to be good like Murray became.

    -Valid point on White and nothing that I haven't thought. PATFO clearly wanted Kuzma then Bradley but LA and Utah leapfrogged them and the Spurs ended up taking White. White was probably already better than Forbes last season, yet he played the fewest minutes of any Spurs 1st round rookie in a decade.

    With that being said; Jeff McDonald mentioned several times, on a recent Back to Back podcast, that the Spurs really liked White and that he could have a role on the team this season. With DeRozen on the team, Murray is probably going to be playing more like an SG anyways, though this shooting improvement that he's shown during the offseason would have to translate for that to not be a mess. White is a combo guard; he can certainly shoot well enough to be a full time 2 and has enough playmaking skills to share those responsibilities with Murray or DeRozen, though probably not this season.

    -White's skill set more closely resembles Mill's than Anderson's which has been a comp for him. With the cap set to e during year 3 and year 4 of Mills deal and White presumably continuing to improve and Mills probably beginning to decline, it wouldn't surprise me that the Spurs move Mills due to his expendability.

    Recent history has seen little roster turnover but the that has obviously changed. Kawhi, Green, and Parker had each played at least 7 seasons with the Spurs; after Manu and Mills, LMA is the longest tenured Spur now. Point being, that PATFO probably won't keep him around for sentimental reasons if the basketball reasons don't make sense too.
    You may call them "sentimental reasons", but I believe they are more than merely sentimental. "Cultural reasons", though much mocked and maligned by some posters on ST, seems like a better designation to me - definitely more value-laden than mere sentimentality. But whatever you wish to call the reasons, Pop is not trading Patty this year, for sure. You even pin-point the cultural abyss beyond Mills when you note that LMA would become our senior statesman after Manu and Patty. He is a beta who wanted a trade a season ago - definitely NOT any conduit of Spurs' winning culture.

    And you may call White a combo-guard, but he is more like a modern PG. The bottom line, however, is that of the guards on our current roster, he is by far the best PG prospect. Murray doesn't have anything like White's passing ability, court vision or handles. He has to develop skills that White already has. Plus, he is unlikely to ever develop White's innate ability to see the floor. But by every indication White is the odd man out here.

    I agree that Walker is a better long-term prospect than Anderson. But they were both supposedly lottery talents.

  15. #840
    Veteran vy65's Avatar
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    Culture couldn’t keep Kawhi on the team. Nor is culture a subs ute for actual talent.

    Culture couldn’t keep one of the best players on the team happy or in line. Fans need to let this narrative go.

  16. #841
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    Culture couldn’t keep Kawhi on the team. Nor is culture a subs ute for actual talent.

    Culture couldn’t keep one of the best players on the team happy or in line. Fans need to let this narrative go.
    You are missing the point. Finally, culture helped the franchise to obtain the best possible value. Culture made an uncommitted player leave the team. In the meantime culture made the team win 47 games and be in the playoffs despite losing his best player for the entire season, battling many other injuries and problem by the way. Culture gave us the best of Duncan, Manu, Parker and the beautiful game. Culture brought 5 rings and transformed the Spurs in the best organisation in sport for 20 years (so far). Culture is bringing prospects, good professionals and the best coaches.

    Thanks to the culture we are not today talking about wasting our season watching our team trying to lose as much possible in order to, in the best case scenario, create a team of the same level than current one in 4 years. You people not giving value to the Culture deserve 10 years rooting for the Kicks, the Kings or any other of those franchises sucking season after season.

  17. #842
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    Pop seems determined to force Murray into the PG slot and push the natural PG, White, into the SG slot.
    Often I read posters according to this. IMHO people are confusing the playmaking ability with the ability to run a team from the PG position. Sometimes these two skills concur on the same player but are not necessarily attached one to the other. I'll give what I consider a good example: Ginobili was a better playmaker than Parker, but rightly Parker was the point guard.

    The playmaking ability is common to offensive juggernauts regardless of their position. For instance, Tim Duncan was our better playmaker for many years. Usually, this player can score and assist, has the skill of making plays for the team. That's what we all agree White can do better than Murray. And probably Walker will do better than both.

    A point guard must control the pace of the game, the time-score, call the plays with the coach trying to implement the game plan, recognise opp defenses every possession (zone, match-ups, press...), involve all his players in the game, lead the defensive strategy and call the defensive plays, have an eye in the opp point guard and coach, etc, etc. Tony has done that very well for us despite not being a great playmaker in the beginning, but that's why Popovich trusted him as his court general. I believe Murray has been chosen to be the point guard because coaches think he has the personality and potential to do his duty and meet the expectations for this key position.

    I'd say the club hopes Murray can be a solid but dynamic defensive starting point guard with Walker having a leading offensive role in the SG whilst being very able of playing good defense. Finally White would be the 3rd guard, leading offensively the second unit.

    Looking to this season, I think this trio individual performance is directly related to their level of maturity, which is inversely proportionate to their potential. In 2018/2019 White will give a better output than Murray and we'll hardly watch Walker play. In the future, Walker will be the best player of them, Murray could be a very good starter and White just a good rotation player.

  18. #843
    Veteran sasaint's Avatar
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    Often I read posters according to this. IMHO people are confusing the playmaking ability with the ability to run a team from the PG position. Sometimes these two skills concur on the same player but are not necessarily attached one to the other. I'll give what I consider a good example: Ginobili was a better playmaker than Parker, but rightly Parker was the point guard.

    The playmaking ability is common to offensive juggernauts regardless of their position. For instance, Tim Duncan was our better playmaker for many years. Usually, this player can score and assist, has the skill of making plays for the team. That's what we all agree White can do better than Murray. And probably Walker will do better than both.

    A point guard must control the pace of the game, the time-score, call the plays with the coach trying to implement the game plan, recognise opp defenses every possession (zone, match-ups, press...), involve all his players in the game, lead the defensive strategy and call the defensive plays, have an eye in the opp point guard and coach, etc, etc. Tony has done that very well for us despite not being a great playmaker in the beginning, but that's why Popovich trusted him as his court general. I believe Murray has been chosen to be the point guard because coaches think he has the personality and potential to do his duty and meet the expectations for this key position.

    I'd say the club hopes Murray can be a solid but dynamic defensive starting point guard with Walker having a leading offensive role in the SG whilst being very able of playing good defense. Finally White would be the 3rd guard, leading offensively the second unit.

    Looking to this season, I think this trio individual performance is directly related to their level of maturity, which is inversely proportionate to their potential. In 2018/2019 White will give a better output than Murray and we'll hardly watch Walker play. In the future, Walker will be the best player of them, Murray could be a very good starter and White just a good rotation player.
    Your Parker/Ginobili example is very apt. But I think that combo was pretty unique, tbh. I see your perspective on the three, and as a projection it makes sense. We will just have to see how it all pans out. I am not completely on board with why Pop would go with, first, TP, and now, with Murray as his PG. For one thing, I think it is widely recognized that the Spurs' defense was directed by Tim. Beyond that, while you have broken down the PGs responsibilities into a few more analytical categories, they still come down to ball handling, passing ability and court vision. Murray hasn't shown the ability to recognize defenses and involve his teammates. He dribbles into traps and doesn't seem to see the floor very well at this point. I don't see him making many assists, involving his teammates. I am not really thinking much about Walker because he has shown very little other than raw athleticism. Even the ST posters who tout him, usually add that he needs to develop his BBIQ (which seems to be less a developable skill than an innate ability). In short, the jury isn't just "out" on Walker, it has barely been empaneled. I will root for all three to succeed at a very high level as long as they are Spurs, however, I don't expect to see much of White or Walker this season - especially if Manu returns.

  19. #844
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    White has to play...at least to see if his game can effectively translate to the nba level. Imho he training effort required to Murray to shoot the ball better means he'll be used also like an outside shooter, aka at the shooting guard position.
    Imho ther's no doubt that White has more playmaking instincts than all the guards we have on the team expected to play point guard...more than Mills, Murray, Forbes for sure. Gino has always been paired with Mills, but now he is too old to play every game a good amount of minutes. He will be spared for the play offs.
    Imho the only back court way to go (after maybe a start with Murray-Mills just for continuity with last year) is White Murray (or Murray-White, as you prefer).
    Looks that their actual skills compliment each other well and if Murray has effectively developed his shooting, both can be considered an offensive manace from everywhere...and (differentely from any back court that include Mills) a more than adequate defensive back court.

  20. #845
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    I believe White will play this year because of his on-court compatibility with both Murray and Mills in the backcourt. Other guards like Demar, Manu, Marco, will have to play minutes at the 3 due to the lack of forwards in the roster. Remember playing time distribution along the RS is different than pt during a game. There will be injuries, rest, ups&downs, etc. I'm pretty sure White will have enough opportunities to prove to others his progression. I hope this will lead to Forbes DNP CD.


    Your Parker/Ginobili example is very apt. But I think that combo was pretty unique, tbh. I see your perspective on the three, and as a projection it makes sense. We will just have to see how it all pans out. I am not completely on board with why Pop would go with, first, TP, and now, with Murray as his PG. For one thing, I think it is widely recognized that the Spurs' defense was directed by Tim. Beyond that, while you have broken down the PGs responsibilities into a few more analytical categories, they still come down to ball handling, passing ability and court vision. Murray hasn't shown the ability to recognize defenses and involve his teammates. He dribbles into traps and doesn't seem to see the floor very well at this point. I don't see him making many assists, involving his teammates.
    I mentioned some of the main features of the point guard position, but it doesn't mean a player needs to excel in all of the categories to be considered a PG. Have a look at the most iconic points of all time and you will find things they weren't able to do. Parker, for instance, never was good on the fastbreak further than pushing till the end and finishing/kicking out. Same with his court vision, we always had better half court passers than him (to me, Murray is better than him in these two categories). I think that, more than a mix of technical skills, what makes a player a point guard are: a particular type of personality, strong team values, and tactical/strategical intelligence. However, the beauty of a team sport like basketball is that all these prototypic schemes are in fact flexible as players interact and complement each other in order to demonstrate the principle 1+1>2.

  21. #846
    Veteran sasaint's Avatar
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    I believe White will play this year because of his on-court compatibility with both Murray and Mills in the backcourt. Other guards like Demar, Manu, Marco, will have to play minutes at the 3 due to the lack of forwards in the roster. Remember playing time distribution along the RS is different than pt during a game. There will be injuries, rest, ups&downs, etc. I'm pretty sure White will have enough opportunities to prove to others his progression. I hope this will lead to Forbes DNP CD.



    I mentioned some of the main features of the point guard position, but it doesn't mean a player needs to excel in all of the categories to be considered a PG. Have a look at the most iconic points of all time and you will find things they weren't able to do. Parker, for instance, never was good on the fastbreak further than pushing till the end and finishing/kicking out. Same with his court vision, we always had better half court passers than him (to me, Murray is better than him in these two categories). I think that, more than a mix of technical skills, what makes a player a point guard are: a particular type of personality, strong team values, and tactical/strategical intelligence. However, the beauty of a team sport like basketball is that all these prototypic schemes are in fact flexible as players interact and complement each other in order to demonstrate the principle 1+1>2.
    I agree with almost everything you said. Even so, the fact that a player doesn't need to excel at every traditional PG skill doesn't negate the idea that you should displace a player who possesses more of those skills with one who has fewer. Complementary skills and flexibility notwithstanding, I still want to see the guy who has better handles actually handling the ball and the guy who has court vision and passing ability actually have the ball in his hands more of the time, placing him in the optimal position to maximize those skills for the overall good of the team.

  22. #847
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    As I said in the other post, IMHO personality and tactical abilities weight more than technical skills when you want to consider what position suits better for a player. To me, Murray seems more of a leader and tougher than White. Additionally, I consider Murray a superior athlete, a better defender, better rebounder so can have more impact on the game pace. Murray is closer to the ideal point guard than White, under my point of view. White is only a better playmaker currently.

  23. #848
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    Leonard left the team because of this type of .

  24. #849
    Timmeehh TimmyBuckets's Avatar
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    Leonard left the team because of this type of .
    He didn't leave . He was deported to Canada.

  25. #850
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