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  1. #1801
    SeaGOAT midnightpulp's Avatar
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    Communism might be a hold adealogy, but to seek out and kill lowly farmers and other civilians for what?

    My thing is is theUS acts like whatever they did was out of moral good, and being the " good guys" which I absolutely belived in when I was younger, but that isn't the case. We killed Iraq long, long before 9/11 with our sanctions and we absolutely killed generations of vietnam children with corrosives that we placed on than nation. I just don't like the fact that we try and sit here as some holier than thou nation when we are ing evil. And to the half infirmed person, that might be obviousm but not everyone is even hald informed, which is my gripe.

    We sit here and paint Kuwait and the Saudi's as great democracies while ripping Iraq, at least as far the media.


    I'm ing drunk right now tho so excuse my typos
    Sadly, collateral damage will happen in a war and some US soldiers acted with psychotic impunity, but let's not act like the North weren't killing thousands and thousands of South Vietnamese civilians and basically committing genocide against who they perceived to be "bourgeoisie." End of the day, the North stated the war through clandestine operations in the South (some 40,000 Northern insurgents, your "Viet Cong," were terrorizing the South and fomenting revolt and instability: About 40,000 communist soldiers infiltrated the south from 1961 to 1963.[64]:76).

    we absolutely killed generations of vietnam children with corrosives that we placed on than nation.
    Agent Orange was a defoliant obviously used to clear forest to hopefully reveal VC encampments. What do you suppose we should've done? Click a couple of bottles and say, "Come out to play?" It made a lot of US troops sick, as well. Anyhow, how about the generations and generations of children the North killed and affected through their invasion and then reunification, which, as I said, set the country back decades? Why do you think Vietnamese fled here and didn't stay in the "worker's paradise" that was reunified Vietnam? The North was the "evil side" in this conflict. Did the US commit evil acts during the war? Sure. As have every nation during war in the history of the world. But we were on "the right side" in the war. There's no argument otherwise (although I'm sure some commie apologist historians would say otherwise).

    The Iraq War was indeed a total moral wrong. But the Iraq War doesn't have anything to do with the Vietnam War, and it doesn't mean the US was always on the "wrong side." It also doesn't mean "we're the cause of all the world's problems" with regard to foreign policy. There's so many dumb myths and misconceptions about the US and various geopolitical situations that anyone uttering that statement is "uninformed," like "we armed Saddam!" No we didn't. The French did (fun fact, their opposition to the Iraq War wasn't out of moral good, but because they have done business with the Saddam regime since it began).

    Even in 2001, France sold Iraq $650m-worth of goods, more than any other country, and was the Western country with the largest number of stands at last November's Baghdad Trade Fair.

    But above all, the French are interested in Iraqi oil.
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/2757797.stm

    Boiled down, everyone's nose in the , which is why it irritates me when people will prop the likes of Europe or whatever as peace loving hippies vs. the US's endless warmongering.

  2. #1802
    Ina world of hype, we win IronMexican's Avatar
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    Sadly, collateral damage will happen in a war and some US soldiers acted with psychotic impunity, but let's not act like the North weren't killing thousands and thousands of South Vietnamese civilians and basically committing genocide against who they perceived to be "bourgeoisie." End of the day, the North stated the war through clandestine operations in the South (some 40,000 Northern insurgents, your "Viet Cong," were terrorizing the South and fomenting revolt and instability: About 40,000 communist soldiers infiltrated the south from 1961 to 1963.[64]:76).



    Agent Orange was a defoliant obviously used to clear forest to hopefully reveal VC encampments. What do you suppose we should've done? Click a couple of bottles and say, "Come out to play?" It made a lot of US troops sick, as well. Anyhow, how about the generations and generations of children the North killed and affected through their invasion and then reunification, which, as I said, set the country back decades? Why do you think Vietnamese fled here and didn't stay in the "worker's paradise" that was reunified Vietnam? The North was the "evil side" in this conflict. Did the US commit evil acts during the war? Sure. As have every nation during war in the history of the world. But we were on "the right side" in the war. There's no argument otherwise (although I'm sure some commie apologist historians would say otherwise).

    The Iraq War was indeed a total moral wrong. But the Iraq War doesn't have anything to do with the Vietnam War, and it doesn't mean the US was always on the "wrong side." It also doesn't mean "we're the cause of all the world's problems" with regard to foreign policy. There's so many dumb myths and misconceptions about the US and various geopolitical situations that anyone uttering that statement is "uninformed," like "we armed Saddam!" No we didn't. The French did (fun fact, their opposition to the Iraq War wasn't out of moral good, but because they have done business with the Saddam regime since it began).



    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/2757797.stm

    Boiled down, everyone's nose in the , which is why it irritates me when people will prop the likes of Europe or whatever as peace loving hippies vs. the US's endless warmongering.
    We absolutely did arm Sadam and there's no way around it. Before 1991, he was huge customer of whatever we were peddling his way, including items like SARS, among other things. There's no way around it.The Iraq was was a complete and utter failure, and the right center have to own it. I just wish the Agemt orange managed to touch McCain. The world would be a much better place if he died in his 20's and his daughter never came to be






    And the North killed with impumity, like you are saying. but let's not sit here and act like we were the ing good guys. Without looking anything up, I'm sure we killed much more civillians than actual "bad guys". All we seem to do is go in and destabalize regions and place whatever we consider to be democracy, which is probably another word for who will give us the prices for the goods we want.

    We 100% should not have ever set foot in Vietnam, much like the gulf in the 90's.

  3. #1803
    Ina world of hype, we win IronMexican's Avatar
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    So no, I disagree that we were ever on the "right side"

  4. #1804
    Ina world of hype, we win IronMexican's Avatar
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    At this point the US doesn't even act as a nation that tries and brings in democracy, though. Even "neoliberals"(wihch is term that I'm not too craxy about) know and understand that we aren;t a nation to go and tey and bring peace like we used to go out there and pretend to be. We're a nation that is solely looking for the benefit of our own, and we are going to go out and try to get as much as get for as cheap as possible, and disrupt as many nations as possible.

    The one sole thing we don't want is am absolute ing moron in the whiete house, which is what bothers liberals. And honestly, thats what bothers me the msot. The fact that we try and pretend that the [resident of the US should be held with prestige instead of realizing what every president has done to nations accross the middle easr and central america since the 60's.


    sorry for typos. Still buzzing

  5. #1805
    SeaGOAT midnightpulp's Avatar
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    We absolutely did arm Sadam and there's no way around it. Before 1991, he was huge customer of whatever we were peddling his way, including items like SARS, among other things. There's no way around it.The Iraq was was a complete and utter failure, and the right center have to own it. I just wish the Agemt orange managed to touch McCain. The world would be a much better place if he died in his 20's and his daughter never came to be
    No. We provided him with some equipment, but the French were undoubtedly the main supplier of his arms. They even sold him a nuclear reactor. This is all do ented.

    Saddam initiated Iraq's nuclear enrichment project in the 1980s, with French assistance. The first Iraqi nuclear reactor was named by the French "Osirak." Osirak was destroyed on 7 June 1981[62] by an Israeli air strike (Operation Opera).

    France armed Saddam and it was Iraq's largest trade partner throughout Saddam's rule. Seized do ents show how French officials and ...
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French...%80%93Iraq_War

    I had a graph one time that showed that the French spent more on Saddam by like a factor of 5 than second place, which was the Soviet Union.


    And the North killed with impumity, like you are saying. but let's not sit here and act like we were the ing good guys. Without looking anything up, I'm sure we killed much more civillians than actual "bad guys". All we seem to do is go in and destabalize regions and place whatever we consider to be democracy, which is probably another word for who will give us the prices for the goods we want.

    We 100% should not have ever set foot in Vietnam, much like the gulf in the 90's.
    No one is ever going to know the official civilian body count either side inflicted, so this is irrelevant. The North also sent hundreds of thousands of South civilians to "reeducation camps" during unification. Many were never seen again. And talk about being misinformed. We didn't go into Vietnam and "destabilize it." The North in' destabilized Vietnam. Here's the South's GDP prior and throughout the war, and then look at the crash during reunification.

    https://www.researchgate.net/figure/...fig1_228241111

    Actually, you wound up seeing the results if we never stepped foot in Vietnam. Mass poverty, "reeducation camps," death, disease, etc, etc. Before that, South Vietnam was on track to maybe being a South Korea.

  6. #1806
    Ina world of hype, we win IronMexican's Avatar
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    I clicked your link and am much to drunk to know whatnim llooking at.

  7. #1807
    SeaGOAT midnightpulp's Avatar
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    So no, I disagree that we were ever on the "right side"
    So, we should've let North Korea invade South Korea? Do you realize how close North Korea was to taking over South Korea before we intervened?



    Yeah, definitely not on the right side there. Kim Il Sung was definitely the hero we all deserved.

    So you're going to claim that the North was "the right side" during the Vietnam War? Talk to some older Vietnamese refugees (many of them settled in Los Angeles) about that and see the response you get.

    Iraq 1? Saddam just yolo'ed it and invaded Kuwait because he thought it was rightful Iraqi territory.

    Post 9/11, I agree we have many ups on our record, but let's not act like the US has been the supervillain throughout the 20th century just because we're in an anti-American phase.

  8. #1808
    SeaGOAT midnightpulp's Avatar
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    I clicked your link and am much to drunk to know whatnim llooking at.
    top curve is the South's economy. Bottom is the North's. See how the South and the entire Vietnam economy just crashed at the end.

  9. #1809
    SeaGOAT midnightpulp's Avatar
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    At this point the US doesn't even act as a nation that tries and brings in democracy, though. Even "neoliberals"(wihch is term that I'm not too craxy about) know and understand that we aren;t a nation to go and tey and bring peace like we used to go out there and pretend to be. We're a nation that is solely looking for the benefit of our own, and we are going to go out and try to get as much as get for as cheap as possible, and disrupt as many nations as possible.

    The one sole thing we don't want is am absolute ing moron in the whiete house, which is what bothers liberals. And honestly, thats what bothers me the msot. The fact that we try and pretend that the [resident of the US should be held with prestige instead of realizing what every president has done to nations accross the middle easr and central america since the 60's.


    sorry for typos. Still buzzing
    I never, ever liked our involvement in the Middle East. I can find zero justification for our presence there aside from continuing the British's legacy (I hope you realize they are the ones who started all the destabilization there in order to keep puppet governments they installed from nationalizing the oil fields?)

    South and Central America isn't so cut-and-dry, though. "B-B-But Pinoche and Allende." Okay, you're the US president. You remember the Cuban missile crisis well and how close we came to Cuba, through Soviet sponsorship, launching nuclear missiles to our land. So after that, why in the ever-loving- would you allow a Communist leader in Central or South America if you could help it? If leaders like Allende back then didn't want to face pressure from the US, don't take aid from the Soviet Union.

    Not to mention, Cuba was taken by force by Castro and his regime. Cuba was actually a rather flourishing capitalist country before Castro. And they did have their problems, but bad capitalism is always better than bad communism. But Cuba's literacy rate! Yeah, real good for reading all that state sponsored press.

  10. #1810
    Ina world of hype, we win IronMexican's Avatar
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    So, we should've let North Korea invade South Korea? Do you realize how close North Korea was to taking over South Korea before we intervened?



    Yeah, definitely not on the right side there. Kim Il Sung was definitely the hero we all deserved.

    So you're going to claim that the North was "the right side" during the Vietnam War? Talk to some older Vietnamese refugees (many of them settled in Los Angeles) about that and see the response you get.

    Iraq 1? Saddam just yolo'ed it and invaded Kuwait because he thought it was rightful Iraqi territory.

    Post 9/11, I agree we have many ups on our record, but let's not act like the US has been the supervillain throughout the 20th century just because we're in an anti-American phase.
    Iraw invaded Kuwait with hoped of stealing their oil and because they were doing so awful after the sanctions we placed on them throughout the 80s and90's. Kuwait hired a US publicist and even had politicians spin them as some great nation that did it the right way while having people pretend to tell horror stories that never happened to US congress for the sole fact of having us intervene in Iraq's business in Kuwait. Should Iraq have ever intervened in kuwait? god no. Would they have gone if we didn't push the iraqi people to famish and die of starvation? who knows. Sadam was a pos, but no worse than kuwait or our buddies the KSA. We villainized him and found a reason to invade Iraq, and never stopped terrorizing innocent people since the 90's, even though we act like the gulf war ended

  11. #1811
    SeaGOAT midnightpulp's Avatar
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    Iraw invaded Kuwait with hoped of stealing their oil and because they were doing so awful after the sanctions we placed on them throughout the 80s and90's. Kuwait hired a US publicist and even had politicians spin them as some great nation that did it the right way while having people pretend to tell horror stories that never happened to US congress for the sole fact of having us intervene in Iraq's business in Kuwait. Should Iraq have ever intervened in kuwait? god no. Would they have gone if we didn't push the iraqi people to famish and die of starvation? who knows. Sadam was a pos, but no worse than kuwait or our buddies the KSA. We villainized him and found a reason to invade Iraq, and never stopped terrorizing innocent people since the 90's, even though we act like the gulf war ended
    Because gassing your people tends to bring on sanctions.

    But anyhow, this highlights why we shouldn't have tried to around the Middle East. It's a cluster of tribal conflict that goes back centuries, which means we can never know which side is the "good" side. Let them hash it out. None of business. But obviously we wanted the oil.

  12. #1812
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    Because gassing your people tends to bring on sanctions.

    But anyhow, this highlights why we shouldn't have tried to around the Middle East. It's a cluster of tribal conflict that goes back centuries, which means we can never know which side is the "good" side. Let them hash it out. None of business. But obviously we wanted the oil.
    Like we're trying to fight for 'the good guys' in the first place. You still believe that in 2020?

  13. #1813
    SeaGOAT midnightpulp's Avatar
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    Like we're trying to fight for 'the good guys' in the first place. You still believe that in 2020?
    There are no good guys in that region. They're all after the oil.

  14. #1814
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    There are no good guys in that region. They're all after the oil.
    And drugs in the case of Afghanistan.

  15. #1815
    Ina world of hype, we win IronMexican's Avatar
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    Because gassing your people tends to bring on sanctions.

    But anyhow, this highlights why we shouldn't have tried to around the Middle East. It's a cluster of tribal conflict that goes back centuries, which means we can never know which side is the "good" side. Let them hash it out. None of business. But obviously we wanted the oil.


    It was all about the oil. I just don't believe Sadam invades Juwait if not for the absolute unbelievable sanctions we set on that nation.

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    It was all about the oil. I just don't believe Sadam invades Juwait if not for the absolute unbelievable sanctions we set on that nation.
    So many CIA guys are oil guys, tbh.

  17. #1817
    Ina world of hype, we win IronMexican's Avatar
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    Just want to say that Sadam absolutely deserved to die, and should have a long time ago.

  18. #1818
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    Just want to say that Sadam absolutely deserved to die, and should have a long time ago.
    Based on what our warmongering media has told us, I agree.

  19. #1819
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    John McCain isn't "the Republicans."
    Agreed. Dude was a phony Democrat neocon all along.

  20. #1820
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    cross post.

  21. #1821
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    Just want to say that Sadam absolutely deserved to die, and should have a long time ago.
    So do the saudi monarchy yet theybare our closest allies

    You cannot pick and choose which despot to have as friends and which ad enemy. Thats a recipe for disaster.

  22. #1822
    4-25-20 Will Hunting's Avatar
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    Uncle Sadam was great - he kept the radical mudslimes in check.

  23. #1823
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    Of course he had a dark sense of humor. He was a dark person who went around war mongering his ass off.

  24. #1824
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    Lost a ton of respect for him with his Obamacare vote. This is a man who was highly criticial of it, yet let his Trump derangement syndrome get the best of him.




    Of course he had a dark sense of humor. He was a dark person who went around war mongering his ass off.

  25. #1825
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    Lost a ton of respect for him with his Obamacare vote. This is a man who was highly criticial of it, yet let his Trump derangement syndrome get the best of him.
    Those who were watching closely already knew he was two-faced s .

    But the fact that someone so prominent called him out on not being a hero; that was great. That really stuck in his craw.

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