Cavs: LeBron may have just passed Jordan

[Clipper Nation]

What about dk vs aids?

AIDS is behind DK, tbh. He benefitted from the joke that was the '80s West (worst conference in NBA history by far) plus the league stepping in with drug suspensions whenever any other Western team started to look like a threat to the Lakers. He was also always on stacked teams and threatened to stay in school if the Bulls, a team he would have actually had to carry, won the #1 pick.

[endrity]

Duncan and Akeem are the only NBA players to win a ring without an all-star teammate. They are the two best players of all time.

And Dirk, especially Dirk in that he had no one even close to that standard.

[lefty]

That's not true. If you look at advanced stats that try to bring everything to one single number like PER, Win Shares, Win Shares /48min, MJ is still the absolute top. His efficiency during the first three peat breaks anything that Wilt, Kareem, and LBJ have achieved. And even if we get into the longevity argument, Wilt drops out immediately, Kareem was an effective but no where near MVP player at 35, and with LeBron I guess we'll seee.

But yeah, it's a myth that MJ didn't have the all around game that LBJ has. His peak is still better than LeBron's.

If you want to argue qualitatively rather than quan atively, MJ was a better scorer and just as much of an athletic freak. What he lacks in raw power he makes up in athleticism, coordination around the basket, and those mitten hands that allowed him to finish from anywhere close to the basket. And for all of LBJ's great blocks, MJ was decisively a better and more consistent defender too. He could and would absolutely shut down perimeter players like Kawhi does nowadays. LeBron has him in passing ability, but MJ's added selfishness never seemed to hurt his team. It's kind of the same argument in a s that we have with Dirk's midrange of Curry's 3-pointers - the are bad shots for everyone but great for them since they still make them at an unreal rate if they are left open.

MJ's selfishness might have set a bad example for the iso-game that followed around the league and for how Kobe tried to approach the game, but MJ was still good enough to make it effective for him and the team.

Scottie would shut down the other team's Best perimeter players, not MJ

The only guys MJ shut down were accountants and ice cream truck drivers

[endrity]

There is nothing bad in having role players get the more demanding defensive assignments. It's stupid to have your best player spend energy on defense. Every team does that, and that is why when comparing great player we talk, rightly, about their offense first and foremost.

But Jordan could and absolutely would play some menacing defense of his own in the playoffs. In fact I think he was more talented defensively, due to just being a different animal athletically compared even to someone like Pippen, but would only reserve the hustle for the big games.

[Galileo]

And Dirk, especially Dirk in that he had no one even close to that standard.

Good point. Dirk is way underrated, just as good as Lebron.

[endrity]

Good point. Dirk is way underrated, just as good as Lebron.

I know you are trying to ridicule my comment but Dirk's career looks better and better in the advanced stats age. As time goes by, and numbers are probably the only thing we have to go by, people will look at his career and Kobe's and find there wasn't much there.

LeBron though is on another level. He accomplished what Dirk did in 2011 many times over.

[lefty]

There is nothing bad in having role players get the more demanding defensive assignments. It's stupid to have your best player spend energy on defense. Every team does that, and that is why when comparing great player we talk, rightly, about their offense first and foremost.

But Jordan could and absolutely would play some menacing defense of his own in the playoffs. In fact I think he was more talented defensively, due to just being a different animal athletically compared even to someone like Pippen, but would only reserve the hustle for the big games.

Nothing wrong with the strategy (having someone else have the toughest assignment to save energy) but I'm just saying that LeBron, on top of having to do everything on offense , also has the toughest defensive assignments for 48 minutes
Imagine if Jordan had all those responsibilities.
Obviously if James had a Pippen, he would gladly let him guard the othet team's best player to save energy.

[Clipper Nation]

There is nothing bad in having role players get the more demanding defensive assignments. It's stupid to have your best player spend energy on defense. Every team does that, and that is why when comparing great player we talk, rightly, about their offense first and foremost.

But Jordan could and absolutely would play some menacing defense of his own in the playoffs. In fact I think he was more talented defensively, due to just being a different animal athletically compared even to someone like Pippen, but would only reserve the hustle for the big games.

Wait, did you just call MVPippen a role player? SMH.

[endrity]

Since when did LeBron regularly get the toughest defensive assignments? Last time they tried that strategy regularly was 2011 when he switched to MVP Rose successfully in the Eastern Finals, and then tried to do the same Terry (he guarded Dirk for only one possession) and got torched in games 5 and 6.

He has never guarded Curry during the Finals these years either. Only last year with Durant he had to do so because it's pretty much his positional assignment.

But no, not even LeBron defends the best opponent regularly and hasn't done so for a long time. Even his highlight defensive plays are his chase-down blocks of other players, not usually his assignments.

[Caltex2]

Stats my ass. He has 5 stains on his resume. Jordan has nonePERIOD.

Meaning Jordan only made the Finals 6 times in his career and didn't make any more because he ran into better teams was suspended for gambling...I mean, tried to hack it at baseball or in some cases, both. And he never made it to the Finals as a Batman without a Robin, or in some cases with a Batrodwoman--I mean Batwoman.

[Caltex2]

Duncan and Akeem are the only NBA players to win a ring without an all-star teammate. They are the two best players of all time.

Hakeem at his peak maybe.

[TD 21]

He's been in the conversation for a while, but the 8 straight Finals argument is as dumb as the 6-0 Finals argument for Jordan (never faced all-time great teams like Spurs and Warriors) because there hasn't been a fellow East contender in that time.

The only logical way to decipher how many he'd have likely made it to in the West during that time, is to place the teams he was on in it and not assume that injuries and suspensions don't eliminate or alter '13 Westbrook, '14 Ibaka, '15 Love and Irving, '16 Curry and Green and '17 Leonard, because the matchups would have been different.

'11 - Mavericks would have had a legit chance (lightning in a bottle team, that seemingly began to believe throughout their run, particularly during Finals)
'12 - Spurs would have had a legit chance
'13 - Spurs probably win and Thunder would have had a legit chance
'14 - Spurs definitely win, Thunder probably win, Clippers would have had a legit chance
'15 - Warriors probably win, Spurs, Clippers, would have had a legit chance
'16 - Warriors definitely win, Thunder, Spurs would have had a legit chance
'17 - Warriors definitely win, Spurs would have had a legit chance
'18 - Warriors definitely win, Rockets probably win, Spurs would have had a legit chance

So '11 and '12, he likely still gets to the Finals. Even though the odds would have been against him the next 6 seasons, he probably find a way 1 or 2 times ('13, '15?), which would give him 3 or 4 instead of 8.

[Caltex2]

Wait, did you just call MVPippen a role player? SMH.

You should get his point. Besides, Scottie never proved to be anything but a choker without Father Setter Upper.

[Clipper Nation]

You should get his point. Besides, Scottie never proved to be anything but a choker without Father Setter Upper.

Scottie was far more successful without DK in the playoffs than DK was without him. Rigged officiating is the only reason he didn't win a ring without DK.

[Caltex2]

He's been in the conversation for a while, but the 8 straight Finals argument is as dumb as the 6-0 Finals argument for Jordan (never faced all-time great teams like Spurs and Warriors) because there hasn't been a fellow East contender in that time.

The only logical way to decipher how many he'd have likely made it to in the West during that time, is to place the teams he was on in it and not assume that injuries and suspensions don't eliminate or alter '13 Westbrook, '14 Ibaka, '15 Love and Irving, '16 Curry and Green and '17 Leonard, because the matchups would have been different.

'11 - Mavericks would have had a legit chance (lightning in a bottle team, that seemingly began to believe throughout their run, particularly during Finals)
'12 - Spurs would have had a legit chance
'13 - Spurs probably win and Thunder would have had a legit chance
'14 - Spurs definitely win, Thunder probably win, Clippers would have had a legit chance
'15 - Warriors probably win, Spurs, Clippers, would have had a legit chance
'16 - Warriors definitely win, Thunder, Spurs would have had a legit chance
'17 - Warriors definitely win, Spurs would have had a legit chance
'18 - Warriors definitely win, Rockets probably win, Spurs would have had a legit chance

So '11 and '12, he likely still gets to the Finals. Even though the odds would have been against him the next 6 seasons, he probably find a way 1 or 2 times ('13, '15, '16?), which would give him 3 or 4 instead of 8.

Not that it wasn't an upset, crapshoot and aided by injuries and suspensions but the Cavs did technically beat the Warriors in 2016.

[Caltex2]

Scottie was far more successful without DK in the playoffs than DK was without him. Rigged officiating is the only reason he didn't win a ring without DK.

Is that what they're calling choking these days. Bad call or not, 1994 was a toss up with anyone after the first round, including the Knicks. And if Pippi Scott Stocking was any kind of leader, they'd have won the 2000 WCF, let alone the le.

[lefty]

Since when did LeBron regularly get the toughest defensive assignments? Last time they tried that strategy regularly was 2011 when he switched to MVP Rose successfully in the Eastern Finals, and then tried to do the same Terry (he guarded Dirk for only one possession) and got torched in games 5 and 6.

He has never guarded Curry during the Finals these years either. Only last year with Durant he had to do so because it's pretty much his positional assignment.

But no, not even LeBron defends the best opponent regularly and hasn't done so for a long time. Even his highlight defensive plays are his chase-down blocks of other players, not usually his assignments.

Dirk isn't really a perimeter player

[TD 21]

Not that it wasn't an upset, crapshoot and aided by injuries and suspensions but the Cavs did technically beat the Warriors in 2016.

Again, in this scenario, the Cavaliers are in the West. That means they likely finish 3rd and the Rockets miss the playoffs, so Curry never slips on Motiejunas' back sweat and injures his MCL.

The Cavaliers face the Spurs in the WCSF. If they got through them to get to the Warriors in the WCF, Green doesn't yet receive his 1 game suspension, Iguodala isn't guaranteed to get hurt and Bogut injured.

[Clipper Nation]

Is that what they're calling choking these days. Bad call or not, 1994 was a toss up with anyone after the first round, including the Knicks. And if Pippi Scott Stocking was any kind of leader, they'd have won the 2000 WCF, let alone the le.

Pippen wins the 2000 WCF - and then the Finals - if the refs don't step in to save the Lakers.

[Caltex2]

TD21

You can rearrange the facts however you want but what happened. You certainly can't say the Warriors definitely beat the Cavs when we know what happened.

[Caltex2]

Pippen wins the 2000 WCF - and then the Finals - if the refs don't step in to save the Lakers.

Is

That

What

They're

Calling

Choking

Now

Days

?

4 points in 10 minutes? 6 points in the fourth quarter total before garbage time?

[TD 21]

TD21

You can rearrange the facts however you want but what happened. You certainly can't say the Warriors definitely beat the Cavs when we know what happened.

I didn't rearrange the facts, that's just the reality. Maybe definitely is too strong, but more than likely isn't.

The point is, there's an excellent chance those 8 straight Finals appearances would be halved if he were in the West.

[Clipper Nation]

Is

That

What

They're

Calling

Choking

Now

Days

?

4 points in 10 minutes? 6 points in the fourth quarter total before garbage time?

37 free throws for the Lakers, to the Blazers' 16. The Lakers got every call in the 4th quarter. It was rigged, plain and simple.

I get that you're still bitter about how Pippen quit on the Rockets, but the fact remains that Stern was the only reason he didn't ring without DK.

[Caltex2]

If Pippen was any kind of leader, that game would have at least gone to OT.

[FrostKing]

How bout passing Tim Duncan or Kobe Bryant first. LeBron the legendary lovable loser.