EDIT LE: PG + C together led teams do not win. As a combination traditional PG and a traditional C aren't the best ways to build a team.
My team
PG: Shaun Livingston
SG: Jimmy Butler
SF: Kevin Durant
PF: Kawhi Leonard
C: Chris Bosh
My team would beat any team that had any of the following point guards (choose 1) AND any of the following centres (choose 1)
PG: Steve Nash, Chris Paul, John Stockton, Tony Parker, Steph Curry
C: Shaquille O'Neal, Dwight Howard, Yao Ming, Kareem, Vlade, Brook Lopez
You can have any 3 other players in the history of the world, and you'd still lose.
Why? Basketball is a game of mismatches. Anomalies on the court (aka small PGs and big C's) have areas of the court where they cannot defend.
Offensively, I can take advantage of players like 'Shaq' by 1) Putting a big man like Chris Bosh in the corner 3 to draw out 'Shaq', and by forcing a switch on the pick and roll to similarly draw out 'Shaq'. I can take advantage of players like 'Nash' by 1) Posting up my PG Sean Livingston, and by forcing a switch on the pick and roll to let anyone else on my team post up 'Nash'.
Defensively, the only advantage players like Chris Paul, Nash, Stockton have is the pick and roll. They force you to switch, to help, etc and use their passing ability to kick to the corner three or find the roll man. If you have my lineup, I would never have to switch and never have to help. No threes or layups created by setting a pick for Stockton or Nash or Paul.
Rebounding: The ball can bounce towards any area of the court on a missed shot. I need all 5 of my players to be good on the boards.
Fast Break: You can't have only 1 player being able to lead the break and having to hand the ball to this PG every time. You also cannot have a fast break with only 3 or 4 players able to run and have your C walking up the court.
Basketball is all about spacing and mismatches. Having 5 players who can stand anywhere on the court and score and can stand anywhere on the court and defend that area is where the NBA is going. Building a team of 6'7 players with a 7'3 wingspans that have adequate dribbling, passing, shooting, and can defend is the key.
In the advanced stats NBA, any weakness can be exploited. It is important that all 5 players can defend all areas and can score in all areas. Traditional PGs and Cs fail at this miserably.
Spurs get this. Kawhi Leonard, Davis Bertans, Austin Daye, Jean Charles Livio, Danny Green, Boris Diaw are all examples of where this is going. Teams drafting Jimmer Fredette, Cody Zeller, Greg Oden, Derrick Rose, Ricky Rubio, Alex Lin just do not understand how to build a team. Teams like the Clippers and Memphis (Paul - Blake - Jordan) and (Conley - Randolph - Gasol) have zero chance to win a le. Both are strong at PG and C and weak on versatility.
Last edited by Gino-Step; 03-23-2014 at 08:23 PM.
is it possible that we haven't seen a PG led team win a le because its been decades since the best player in the league was a pg? there isn't something inherently wrong with the point guard position...
Yeah going with Chris Bosh over Prime Shaq is a good option.
Magic Johnson does not count as PG. He's like LeBron / Shaun Livingston by my definition. He's actually huge. My point is geared towards the fact that you cannot have a tiny guy that can be abused or a big stiff that can be abused. Key is versatility to avoid mismatches.
Comparing Magic and LeBron to Shaun ing Livingston
Since 2004:
1 + 4/5 combinations lose
Brook Lopez + Deron Williams
Dwight Howard + Nash
Blake + Paul
Amare + Nash
Bogut + Curry
Yao + Francis
Ilgauskas + LeBron
2-3-4 combinations win.
Wade + LeBron + Bosh
Harden + Durant + Ibaka
Stephenson + George + West
Ginobili/Green + Kawhi + Splitter/Diaw
Ginobili + Bowen + Duncan (mobile version)
Ray Allen + Paul Pierce + Kevin Garnett
Kobe + Odom + Pau
Hamilton + Tayshaun + Rasheed
What the ing ??
Hope you're not srs
Btw Spurs won a le in 2007 with Duncan playing C and their PG winning a Finals MVP
/thread
Um... yea... They are all 6'7-6'9. Livingston in that sense is much closer to Magic than Nash, Stockton, Chris Paul etc. My point is all about mismatches.
Chris Paul/Michael Jordan/LeBron James/Dirk Nowitzki/Shaquille O'Neal
You really think your ty team is going to stop that?
I don't care how big he is, Livingston - an okay role player who is coming off one of the most greusome knee injuries in NBA history - is not a bigger mismatch than Nash, Stockton, or CP3
And if you want to talk about mismatches, prime Shaq was a mismatch for pretty much everybody - but he was a center, so he doesn't fit in to your terrible take
To be fair, Duncan was the real Finals MVP that year, Enrique just padded stats against Boobie Gibson
Shaq would average 70ppg with Chris ing Bosh guarding him
Agreed tbh but since then it's pretty clear to non-Manu and Enrique hater Spurfans that this is a PG/C led team imoTo be fair, Duncan was the real Finals MVP that year, Enrique just padded stats against Boobie Gibson
Kobe would have to pass the ball.Shaq would average 70ppg with Chris ing Bosh guarding him
tbh that's why I picked you to be on my team
Klay Thompson and LeBron James stops Tony Parker.I don't care how big he is, Livingston - an okay role player who is coming off one of the most greusome knee injuries in NBA history - is not a bigger mismatch than Nash, Stockton, or CP3
And if you want to talk about mismatches, prime Shaq was a mismatch for pretty much everybody - but he was a center, so he doesn't fit in to your terrible take
Danny Green and Kawhi Leonard stops Steph Curry.
Chris Bosh and LeBron at the 4/5 spot forces one of Tim Duncan and Tiago Splitter to sit down.
Steph Curry coming off the pick and roll forces Tim Duncan to sit down. Freaking Game 6 forces Tim Duncan to sit down. Think about that!
There is not a thing you can do to render Kawhi Leonard, Jimmy Butler, Kevin Durant, Sean Livingston, or Chris Bosh useless. That's my point.
Center led teams don't win championships?
Shaq
Hakim
Robinson (Who was a beast in his last season)
Just to name a few. Ya'll s is losing yourself over this small ball bs, only Lebron and Wade can make that work.
Come on son, the Spurs were led by Duncan, even though Robinson was still servicable, he didn't lead them anywhere except to an anal destruction by Hakeem.
But the point of the thread is re ed. Everyone knows PG led teams suck ass and Center led teams do win championships. However, the current model of the NBA is soft pussies that run up and down fast and draw fouls.
I purposefully did not include Hakeem because he's 6'9 and mobile as .
Today's NBA is all about mismatches. You can put Shaq in a bad position. Imagine him having to guard Steph Curry off a dribble pick and roll. I'd much rather have Tiago Splitter or Hakeem in that defensive situation for example.
Did you forget that prime Shaq is a mismatch for your entire team? He would score the ball on every single possession.
I understand the OP's point but he's relying on jump shooting to win games, while the opposing team is relying on much higher percentage dunks and layups. If you don't double Shaq, he scores every trip. You get a team shooting 70% and you're not going to beat them with jumpshooting.
Leonard, Butler, and Livingston are nowhere near go-to scorers and Bosh is soft and inconsistent.... opposing teams can just let Durant get his and shut down everyone else....
Your take is re ed, deal with it
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