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  1. #251
    Veteran SpursDynasty85's Avatar
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    I've been watching the NBA since David Robinson's rookie year. I've had NBA League Pass since it was introduced in the early 2000's. I'm not going to lie and say that your premise is false - that I mainly watched Spurs games in that span cause that is the truth. I did however witness Jordan's rise to dominance and Kobe's own ascension. Their skillsets are unique (very similar in fact since Kobe patterned it after MJ). Kobe entered the league the same year as AI and Ray Allen in 1996. I started following Ginobili from the moment he was drafted in 1999. But I also witnessed Wade's "rise" into the NBA scene [more like a parade to the free-throw line]. All to say that evaluation of their respective careers doesn't diminish any of Manu's accomplishments. Manu has graced us with utter professionalism, a willingness to leave it all on the floor, scratch, claw, poke - anything to win - all while demonstrating a flair for the unorthodox (brilliant passes, the okey-doke-made you flinch play, a crazy Euro-step, and a competitive fire like no other).

    We don't get the complete package when talking about some of the other stars on the all-time shooting guards list.

    For example,

    Players like James Harden have had known deficiencies on the defensive end of the floor throughout his career. George Gervin fits the same mold.

    Players like Reggie Miller or Klay Thompson are elite shooters, but aren't known for being playmakers... I've always thought that Klay's defensive impact has been largely overblown (cause GSW - smh).

    Ray Allen especially from 1999 - 2007 was a very complete player on the offensive side of the floor (could create, pass, and shoot). But his production relative to Manu is higher only in proportion to having had higher usage rates and more shot attempts - not necessarily translating to wins either. His defensive instincts were not as complete as Manu's.

    I used to be a Drexler fan in the early 90's (before he became a Rocket - and an annoying broadcaster) But if pressed I wouldn't have qualms about placing him third on the all-time list. He played both sides of the ball, and was efficient about it. Unfortunately, he lived under the shadow of No. 23 his whole career and under the shadow of Magic's Showtime Lakers.
    Agree that Ginobili had more tools to make more winning plays at any given moment. Thanks for posting more about yourself. I've been a big ball fan for a while but only since around mid 90's.

    Bball is such a beautiful game. It's too bad we are seeing it being desecrated by all this one on one crap and strict defense rules that don't allow physical play anymore.

    Ultimately, to win one playoff series I'm taking Manu or Wade (toss up for me) besides Kobe and MJ. But my next two of with the proper team around them is definitely Ray Allen and Klay Thompson. Although not the playmaker Ginobili was they are workhorses off the ball, sharpshooters, and decent defensively. Klay is better defensively but still isn't dominant on defense but he is fundamentally sound and will make anyone around his size work hard for it, same with Ginobili. Ultimately, if I'm picking a guy to start a franchise with, Ginobili goes further down slightly only because my fear of playing him 35-37 mpg, he will eventually get hurt. I really do wonder what a starting Ginobili would look like and without Duncan. I foresee a guy who would pull games he should never win out of his you know what but eventually get hurt within 2 or 3 weeks. Just my 2 cents. It is definitely something to be talked about and I do believe we will soon see players come out and talk about how frustrating it was playing against Ginobili soon.

  2. #252
    FUCK TRUMP & FUCK THE GOP gambit1990's Avatar
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  3. #253
    Veteran james evans's Avatar
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    Jerry West was great... but the league was VERY different back then. The competition was weaker tbh.
    Jerry West played in the most COMPETITIVE decade of basketball the NBA has ever seen. Before the merger there were 17 teams. After the ABA merger, there were 22 teams. 8 different teams won titles in the 70s. 4 teams won in the 80s. 4 teams won in the 90s. 5 teams in the 2000s and 6 so far in the 2010s. There were no back to backs in the 70s. West retired in 74, the 60s was mostly the celtics winning So how isn't the 70s the most competitive decade in NBA history? The only teams to win 2 titles were the knicks and celtics and they weren't back to backs. I don't know about about you but I'm fucking tired of seeing GS and Cleveland every goddamn year in the finals and I'm happy we won't see it next year. Think about that. for almost a half decade straight, the same two teams played every year in the finals.

  4. #254
    Veteran james evans's Avatar
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    there are also 7 game 1st round series now. When bird was playing, there were 3 game 1st round series that were extended to 5 and now 7.

  5. #255
    Veteran james evans's Avatar
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    In my eyes he overtook him a while ago. Durant has been a league MVP and the second best player behind Lebron since 2011. That's a good 7 years that he has been the second best player in the league. I disagree Scottie was never the second best player in the league. During that span of 92-97 I would take Olajuwon,Malone,Shaq,Barkley,Robinson over Scottie.

    Keep in mind I hate Durant. I think he's a bitch but I can't deny his talent. His scoring ability is on a level that Scottie could never reach. I actually believe if you switched Scottie in Durant's place that the Warriors would be an easier team to beat. One of Scottie's weaknesses offensively is that his jump shot was decent at best but was very inconsistent.
    And if Durant played in an era without touch fouls and zone defense to get rid of the center position, he wouldn't be a top 2 player in the league either haha. The league started changing rules to benefit Jordan and prop him up for views and sales. When Jordan retired, you had 2 guys going to the finals every year for 8 years straight(Duncan and Shaq was in every NBA finals from 99-2007). Did the league promote them like they did Kobe, Lebron Curry?? Hell no. What did they do? take handchecking out of the league completely, add in SUPER TOUCH FOULS for "superstars" and then destroy the center position by creating this zone bullshit thus leaving 3 point shooters open in that a player shooting 12 threes per game is normal. And now they're trying to change the rules yet again concerning the shock clock in that it won't reset fully after an offensive rebound to get scoring up. The NBA is gonna one day fuck themselves up to the point that they can't come back from. And I hope I'm alive to see it.

  6. #256
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    Jerry West played in the most COMPETITIVE decade of basketball the NBA has ever seen. Before the merger there were 17 teams. After the ABA merger, there were 22 teams. 8 different teams won titles in the 70s. 4 teams won in the 80s. 4 teams won in the 90s. 5 teams in the 2000s and 6 so far in the 2010s. There were no back to backs in the 70s. West retired in 74, the 60s was mostly the celtics winning So how isn't the 70s the most competitive decade in NBA history? The only teams to win 2 titles were the knicks and celtics and they weren't back to backs. I don't know about about you but I'm fucking tired of seeing GS and Cleveland every goddamn year in the finals and I'm happy we won't see it next year. Think about that. for almost a half decade straight, the same two teams played every year in the finals.
    Agreed. I remember growing up during the 90's and watching the bulls win 6 in 8 years but it wasn't nearly as annoying as seeing Cavs-Warriors 4 years in a row. It's insane that the Warriors have a high chance of going to the finals for the 5th year in a row. That's ridiculous and I think that's some feat that hasn't even been done since the 60's. Rating's wise this has been a great era for the NBA but if your hardcore fan this era has been the shittiest from a competitive standpoint.

  7. #257
    Veteran SpursDynasty85's Avatar
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    Jerry West played in the most COMPETITIVE decade of basketball the NBA has ever seen. Before the merger there were 17 teams. After the ABA merger, there were 22 teams. 8 different teams won titles in the 70s. 4 teams won in the 80s. 4 teams won in the 90s. 5 teams in the 2000s and 6 so far in the 2010s. There were no back to backs in the 70s. West retired in 74, the 60s was mostly the celtics winning So how isn't the 70s the most competitive decade in NBA history? The only teams to win 2 titles were the knicks and celtics and they weren't back to backs. I don't know about about you but I'm fucking tired of seeing GS and Cleveland every goddamn year in the finals and I'm happy we won't see it next year. Think about that. for almost a half decade straight, the same two teams played every year in the finals.
    You bring up a good point with the lesser teams but the popularity and the amount of talented youth looking to play professional sports, especially the black players didn't grow until later.

  8. #258
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    And if Durant played in an era without touch fouls and zone defense to get rid of the center position, he wouldn't be a top 2 player in the league either haha. The league started changing rules to benefit Jordan and prop him up for views and sales. When Jordan retired, you had 2 guys going to the finals every year for 8 years straight(Duncan and Shaq was in every NBA finals from 99-2007). Did the league promote them like they did Kobe, Lebron Curry?? Hell no. What did they do? take handchecking out of the league completely, add in SUPER TOUCH FOULS for "superstars" and then destroy the center position by creating this zone bullshit thus leaving 3 point shooters open in that a player shooting 12 threes per game is normal. And now they're trying to change the rules yet again concerning the shock clock in that it won't reset fully after an offensive rebound to get scoring up. The NBA is gonna one day fuck themselves up to the point that they can't come back from. And I hope I'm alive to see it.
    I agree with you 100 percent. No argument from me about what you said about handchecking and zone. I'm one of the few fans that liked the way the league was when the rules favored the defense. I felt it forced players to be better and it made the games more competitive.

  9. #259
    Saytowns Fawtbox King lebomb's Avatar
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    LeBron may not have gone to college but he is very smart. Look at all the businesses that he has. He doesn’t go out and buy jewelry and rings and stupid things with his money he even opened a school, I would consider that very intelligent
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  10. #260
    5 is real faggy! Mikeanaro's Avatar
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    Jerry West played in the most COMPETITIVE decade of basketball the NBA has ever seen. Before the merger there were 17 teams. After the ABA merger, there were 22 teams. 8 different teams won titles in the 70s. 4 teams won in the 80s. 4 teams won in the 90s. 5 teams in the 2000s and 6 so far in the 2010s. There were no back to backs in the 70s. West retired in 74, the 60s was mostly the celtics winning So how isn't the 70s the most competitive decade in NBA history? The only teams to win 2 titles were the knicks and celtics and they weren't back to backs. I don't know about about you but I'm fucking tired of seeing GS and Cleveland every goddamn year in the finals and I'm happy we won't see it next year. Think about that. for almost a half decade straight, the same two teams played every year in the finals.
    The most COMPETITIVE means there are more strong teams so each of those teams have real chances to win the title.

    If Boston won 8 titles in the 60s there was no competition at all, they dominated everything.

    If 6 teams have won so far during the ´10s there is more competition, even if GSW wins the next 2.
    Last edited by Mikeanaro; 08-24-2018 at 11:25 PM.

  11. #261
    Veteran james evans's Avatar
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    The most COMPETITIVE means there are more strong teams so each of those teams have real chances to win the title.

    If Boston won 8 titles in the 60s there was no competition at all, they dominated everything.

    If 6 teams have won so far during the ´10s there is more competition, even if GSW wins the next 2.
    i said the 70s too. 8 teams won in the 70s. Did you miss everything I had explained and just picked out one word to post about? He retired in 74 so IN ADDITION TO PLAYING IN THE 60S HE PLAYED IN THE 70S .

    Did Jerry West not play in the 70s at all? Being that he won his only title in 72? And going into the 70s, lost in 69? I'm 100% sure I said the 70s was the most competitive era hahaha. I don't know how you comprehended me saying the 60s were from my post.

  12. #262
    LONG LIVE THE CHIEF lefty's Avatar
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    And if Durant played in an era without touch fouls and zone defense to get rid of the center position, he wouldn't be a top 2 player in the league either haha. The league started changing rules to benefit Jordan and prop him up for views and sales. When Jordan retired, you had 2 guys going to the finals every year for 8 years straight(Duncan and Shaq was in every NBA finals from 99-2007). Did the league promote them like they did Kobe, Lebron Curry?? Hell no. What did they do? take handchecking out of the league completely, add in SUPER TOUCH FOULS for "superstars" and then destroy the center position by creating this zone bullshit thus leaving 3 point shooters open in that a player shooting 12 threes per game is normal. And now they're trying to change the rules yet again concerning the shock clock in that it won't reset fully after an offensive rebound to get scoring up. The NBA is gonna one day fuck themselves up to the point that they can't come back from. And I hope I'm alive to see it.
    This

  13. #263
    5 is real faggy! Mikeanaro's Avatar
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    i said the 70s too. 8 teams won in the 70s. Did you miss everything I had explained and just picked out one word to post about? He retired in 74 so IN ADDITION TO PLAYING IN THE 60S HE PLAYED IN THE 70S .

    Did Jerry West not play in the 70s at all? Being that he won his only title in 72? And going into the 70s, lost in 69? I'm 100% sure I said the 70s was the most competitive era hahaha. I don't know how you comprehended me saying the 60s were from my post.
    He only played 4 seasons during the 70s so it doesnt count, in fact he considered retirement after the championship because he was almost done, played one more season to see what happens and ended up injured.

    So that info is inaccurate, also until 1973 it was all about Lakers and Knicks, competitiveness came after he retired.

    He spent 70% of his career losing vs Boston, during the 60s.

  14. #264
    Veteran james evans's Avatar
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    He only played 4 seasons during the 70s so it doesnt count, in fact he considered retirement after the championship because he was almost done, played one more season to see what happens and ended up injured.

    So that info is inaccurate, also until 1973 it was all about Lakers and Knicks, competitiveness came after he retired.

    He spent 70% of his career losing vs Boston, during the 60s.
    ok so Jerry west years in the 70s don't count. Ok gotcha. With that, are still implying Ginobli was better than West? All you have to do is answer yes or no.

  15. #265
    5 is real faggy! Mikeanaro's Avatar
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    ok so Jerry west years in the 70s don't count. Ok gotcha. With that, are still implying Ginobli was better than West? All you have to do is answer yes or no.
    Of course he was better, what the fuck is wrong with you?
    Because the logo was based on his image I must say he is the best thing ever?
    Like those saying Gervin was better than Manu because he was the first superstar Spurs ever had.

    West shot a mid court buzzer beater in the playoffs, awesome!
    Manu did the same, except with a broken arm and a guy on the floor trying to fuck his shot... booo he is not the logo.

  16. #266
    Veteran james evans's Avatar
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    Of course he was better, what the fuck is wrong with you?
    Because the logo was based on his image I must say he is the best thing ever?
    Like those saying Gervin was better than Manu because he was the first superstar Spurs ever had.

    West shot a mid court buzzer beater in the playoffs, awesome!
    Manu did the same, except with a broken arm and a guy on the floor trying to fuck his shot... booo he is not the logo.
    it has nothign to do with the logo at all haha. but it's your opinion and I see who is in your avatar so there is nothing more to say. And if u were starting a franchise as a gm, you'd pick Gervin over Ginobli too. Ya see Gervin didn't have the luxury of playign with Tim Duncan and in the finals against the Nets and Cavs.
    Last edited by james evans; 08-25-2018 at 01:47 PM.

  17. #267
    5 is real faggy! Mikeanaro's Avatar
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    it has nothign to do with the logo at all haha. but it's your opinion and I see who is in your avatar so there is nothing more to say. And if u were starting a franchise as a gm, you'd pick Gervin over Ginobli too. Ya see Gervin didn't have the luxury of playign with Tim Duncan and in the finals against the Nets and Cavs.
    What difference makes my avatar with what happened in basketball history?
    West didnt make shit without Chamberlain, Jordan without Pippen was nothing, Magic said he had problems with the Bulls because Kareem wasnt there anymore.
    That coulda/woulda game has no weight at all, you are what you do and what you lived, not what you would prefer, but you like to discredit people because you want to judge them using your fantasy situations.

    Every time Manu was injured Spurs never went too far in the playoffs, Fact.
    Manu and a buncha scrubs beat Duncan AI and athletic monkeyballers full of juice like Wade Fatmelo Lebron Jefferson Amare, who cares??? Fact
    Popovich said without Manu Spurs are light 1 or 2 rings, Fact.
    Spurs couldnt beat Super Lakers until Manu arrived, Fact.
    Manu was the best player in the 2005 against the most defensive team? Fact
    Nobody cares because Defense sucks and is not flashy? Fact
    Most Spur fans are salty ungrateful SOB? Fact
    Nobody cares about making everyone better, play for the team and win no matter what? Fact
    Manu was flashy, Fact but nobody cares
    Manu was unpredictable, Fact but never played for the Lakers

    Gervin was a junkie? Fact
    Gervin was even traded to the Bulls? Fact

    The Tim Duncan card is lame? Fact
    Kobe had Shaq Phil Jackson, Horry, Fisher, Grant, Harper
    Jordan had Pippen, Phil Jackson, Kerr, Kukok, Mercer, Rodman, Harper, Grant.
    Magic had Kareem, Worthy, Michael Cooper, Pat Riley

    Raymond has his rings playing with the Warrietes, still a fat scrub.

    McDyess played with Duncan, no rings.
    Jefferson with Duncan, no rings.
    Last edited by Mikeanaro; 08-25-2018 at 02:25 PM.

  18. #268
    Veteran james evans's Avatar
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    that 2004 team was Larry Brown's fault and his stubbornness of not playing the best players to show he was in charge. No way that team should have got a bronze. And they also lost to PR that year too since you forgot to mention it.

    Spurs couldnt beat Super Lakers until Manu arrived, Fact.
    no, the FACTS are that we swept the lakers in 99 for our FIRST title. but you're a spurs fan right. no, you're a ginobli fan that doesn't know shit about a team you're suposedly a fan of. Nothing more to say really.

  19. #269
    5 is real faggy! Mikeanaro's Avatar
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    that 2004 team was Larry Brown's fault and his stubbornness of not playing the best players to show he was in charge. No way that team should have got a bronze. And they also lost to PR that year too since you forgot to mention it.


    no, the FACTS are that we swept the lakers in 99 for our FIRST title. but you're a spurs fan right. no, you're a ginobli fan that doesn't know shit about a team you're suposedly a fan of. Nothing more to say really.
    Is not stubbornness, you think coach K is good? he is terrible.
    They lost because they sucked and it was fair and square, Team USA has no competition or excuses because they are very superior to any other team.
    Team USA never plays sophisticate ball they just beat you with their raw power.
    Do you remember what happened in 2012? Spain almost beat USA
    They were saved because Kobe hit a couple 3 pointers, and then Lebron jumped 3 floors to grab rebounds, they were shit but very athletics at the same time and nobody in Spain could match that raw power.

    Phil Jackson wasnt there, so who cares.
    Phil Jackson went there and Spurs were raped because Lakers had a plan, so your double standard says Larry Brown sucks but you dont count Phil Jackson like he is some random scrub.

    Lakers had 3 coaches during that season...

  20. #270
    LONG LIVE THE CHIEF lefty's Avatar
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    Hey man

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