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I know you don't, WH - it would be worse for your side than him losing in 2020. I should not have done my last post as a reply to your post. I wanna hear this evidence from Spurs Homer.
I do not wish for the impeachment of Donald Trump. I also have no particular beef with Evangelical Christianity (which is not, contrary to prevailing wisdom, monolithic) or with conservative beliefs -- whatever that means now. It takes all kinds to make a world.
Most Trump fans seem to think you're not a real conservative, or even a real Republican, unless you kiss Trump's ring.
I know you don't, WH - it would be worse for your side than him losing in 2020. I should not have done my last post as a reply to your post. I wanna hear this evidence from Spurs Homer.
it's odd that you think you know what side I'm on. because I am against Donald Trump does not mean I am for the other side.
there can be more than two sides in politics.
Last edited by Winehole23; 09-02-2018 at 01:06 AM.
fwiw, nothing would please me better than to see both major parties thoroughly discredited, defeated and reorganized.
kind of hand wavy, I agree. what's evidence enough for a voter may not rise to a legally permissible level, but it needn't: that's it's enough to sway a voter this way or that is enough.
hand waving, bloviating and table-pounding, plus confirmation bias, are often enough to change people's minds. rational persuasion is a fool's errand but worth the candle, I think: what else creates the audience that would be receptive to it?
Instead of pointing out - and repeating - what the 1200 plus page Flynn thread has already laid out - I will instead post this link to explain all the charges, convictions and a decent summary of just how corrupt this administration is;
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/23/u...n-charges.html
That gives you all the public evidence you need right there - but of course for a Trump defender it is never enough. There will always be whataboutism, denials, silly deflections ("how is any of this connected to Trump?") etc.
Why do Trump defenders say these things? Because Trump administration officials who are complicit in these crimes parrot these same things. They have the gall to say that the Campaign Manager's crimes are not related to Trump. The convicted criminal who ran Trumps campaign - is not connected to Trump. That is absurd.
This entire administration from top to bottom is corrupt and the evidence is there in all the criminal charges and guilty pleas and all you Trump supporters have is - what? The word of the biggest liar on the planet and you are willing to die on that hill? All your denials hinge on the word and denials of a man who has never once told the truth? Seriously?
Read the article in the link and see all the results of this investigation - so far - and ask yourself why you can so easily discard these facts and instead blindly believe the denials and lies of an evil small man.
You're watching it happen in real time imo. It's a slow messy process and the outcome is completely unpredictable but I don't understand why you're not enjoying the show, I am.
Here I was - enjoying my long weekend - bowling, watching Federer, movie - just what I didn't need - a link to a NYT article that links to many other NYT articles.
Is there any other source that I can look at? I've reached my limit of free NYT articles and it's only the 2nd of the month.
https://investigaterussia.org/
everything is also here - but not in one neat article like in the ny times article
In fairness to rmt, the information disclosed in the NYT article does not yet inculpate DJT. If Trump hired criminals that does not necessarily make him legally responsible for their crimes, though it is certainly enough to vote against him or to lobby for his removal from office.
Personally, I agree with Spurs Homer that DJT is corrupt, I think that was clear well before he got elected. Housing discrimination, six bankruptcies, stiffing contractors, Trump University, shady business partners, exploiting foreign workers, not disclosing his taxes, failing to divest his holdings upon assuming office, appointing family members to high positions in government, it all stinks to high heaven -- but the evidence isn't yet legally conclusive. Pretending it is, well, just pretending.
As for what the direct evidence of wrongdoing would be, isn't that what the special counsel's investigation is for? It's sort of up to Rod Rosenstein whether anyone else will see it, but in all likelihood it will get out there.
We'll see, right? And if we don't there'll be a chance to rearrange things in 2020.
hmm, what's the enjoyable part for you?
You're too kind - softly letting him off the hook. And if it weren't almost 2 am and waaay past my normal bedtime, I'd pursue it.
where's the direct evidence of wrongdoing by Trump @ that link? you posted it, so I presume you're familiar with its contents.
is evidence Trump committed crimes there? please be as specific as you can -- you're the one who said it was overwhelming. surely you can share a tidbit or two.
or not
I agree also with you that what is out there is enough to remove him from office. Isn't that enough?
With any other president- yes. With this one, apparently not because the entire country- for some crazy reason - treats him as if he were an infant. Incapable of being responsible for anything. Trump says inappropriate things, insulting or improper or outlandish things - everyone scrambles to find a logical explanation while giving him every benefit of the doubt and every benefit that no other president would have received.
All those charges & pleas and convictions and here you are asking for "more proof" or "direct evidence."
The infant in office surely could not have been complicit in any of those crimes. Obama would have been hanging from the tree on the white house lawn lol.
1) The Trump tower mtg is part of the collusion/conspiracy crime. Trump denies he knew anything yet he composes the letter explaining about adoptions. This is a crime - but wait - he is an infant, right? So let us enable him and say, "lying to the press is not illegal!" Wrong. This is conspiracy against the USA when Trump and his top advisors/son agreed to a mtg to accept stolen material. A felony or two and Trump is directly involved. Mueller will make it official with tons of corroborating evidence when he is ready to enter it officially.
2) "Russia if you are listening..." Trump directly conspiring/colluding with an enemy government to let them know it is ok to commit a felony (hacked emails) against an American citizen. Wait- he is an infant - so let us say, "no one would openly commit a crime ok? let us say he was just joking!" Wrong. It was part of the crime of conspiring to defraud the USA. (that same day July 27, 2016 - Russia hacks into the Clinton campaign servers)
3) Firing Comey to stop an investigation (Obstruction of Justice) and confirming it on a national tv broadcast.
I could go on but will instead leave you with this;
Two weeks prior to his inauguration, Trump was given a classified briefing alerting him to Russia cyber-attacking the USA to influence an election. Trump was given as much info as possible - without - the Intelligence Agencies spilling the beans on any incriminating evidence on Trump himself (or his staff). Trump was properly advised on where we stood as a nation and given the courtesy as Commander in Chief that the entire Intelligence Community was unanimous in their preliminary findings.
Think of that for a minute.
You are the incoming president and you are given this info - what do you do?
It is your duty to take action. To protect America. Your duty to serve this country and coordinate with the IA's and do the same thing that Obama/Bush/Clinton - anyone - would have done.
So what did Trump do? What did he do when briefed on an attack by a foreign adversary?
He immediately gave aid and comfort and cover - to the attackers.
He went on the attack. Against the IA's. Against America. Against truth. Against law enforcement. Against the public servants that are faithfully serving this country.
He called it a hoax, a witch hunt.
Did Trump immediately set up a cyber force to protect against further attacks? Or any other number of steps that any other president would have followed up on.
Trump started conspiring with Russia on his first day in office. His National Security advisor was on the phone - during his inauguration - assuring the Russians that the sanctions were going to be lifted - "do not worry"
(The lifting of sanctions were the reward the Russians were to receive for their hacking/cyber-crimes/fake ads/vote suppressing,etc) (There is public evidence that Trump team tried to lift sanctions and return the Compounds that Obama took away from the Russians)
Trump actively began his campaign of conspiring with Russia by attacking American ins utions like the press, the Intelligence community, the public servants - and this is exactly what Russia would have been extremely happy about.
Every single time that Trump called the investigation a hoax or witch hunt - was an act against the USA. Every time he did this was more proof of colluding and conspiring with the enemy and begging for approval from Russia/Putin.
Imagine Obama in the Oval office inviting the Russians and making sure that no American press was allowed? Imagine Obama bragging to the Russians that he had just fired the Director of the FBI because he was having issues with an investigation - but now that pressure was gone? (White house Tree-git a rope!) Not to mention spilling classified info to the Russians given in good faith to us by an ally.
Wait- he is an infant - so this cannot possibly be true. It is the MSM! It is a left wing conspiracy! Trump tweeted that there is absolutely no evidence! No collusion!
"Mr Trump - who do you believe - the USA intelligence agencies or Russia and Putin?"
Trump: "President Putin was strong and powerful in his denial. I see no reason why it would be Russia! I think the stupidity of the USA is responsible for our bad relationship!"
Go back and listen to Brennan's statements. Brennan has seen far more than the American public has and he has called Trumps acts - "nothing short of Treason."
Listen to these life long public servants who were watching/listening/surveilling the Russians for years prior to the election - and anyone who might be in bed with the Russians.
Listen to those professionals who are sounding the alarm. They are on their horse shouting "the Russians are coming!" Listen to them and think of the evidence they have seen and tell yourself - do I heed the warning or do I believe a con man who was planted as President by a foreign government?
Lastly, what if an innocent man were the incoming president who had just been briefed by the IA's - what would an innocent man do, aside from taking steps to protect the country? How would an innocent man act if he were given the info about the cyber-attack?
Imagine Trump had immediately condemned Russia. Imagine he had immediately called his entire staff and announced to the press that he has just ordered all his staff to assist - in any way - with this investigation. Imagine he had said - an attack on America is an attack on everyone - and we will get through this.
Imagine he had said to Putin- this will not stand - and our Intelligence professionals will get to the bottom of this and they have my support 100%.
Imagine if he was innocent of all crimes - of all misconduct? He has not acted in this way at all, has he?
"He has not acted in this way at all, has he?"
no, nor has any of his mafiya.
repeated, non-stop LYING, and forgetting, recusing, obstructing.
If there's nothing there, then why are all of them acting so ing guilty, acting like they have some very bad stuff to hide?
Last edited by boutons_deux; 09-02-2018 at 09:40 AM.
Hear Hear!
Nope.
You need 67 votes in the Senate to do that.
DOJ won't touch DJT until he leaves office or is removed.
At that point, he can be prosecuted and a court can decide whether the things you mentioned are crimes and whether DJT is guilty or not guilty.
The Mueller probe isn't a deus ex machina that will get rid of Trump. He's a career LE guy who plays by the rules, and those (DOJ) rules say POTUS is ineligible for prosecution.
If he finds presidential wrongdoing, he'll put it in a report for Rod Rosenstein. Rosenstein will then forward it to the House of Representatives, which, if Democrats take the majority, will likely impeach.
If the House does impeach, the whole thing will die in the Senate for lack of votes.
The next opportunity after that to hold DJT to account for alleged crimes will be whenever he leaves office.
Mueller must at least subpoena Trash before a Grand Jury, and let him hang himself.
SCOTUS said Clinton had to testify, so that's "settled Cons utional law"
I see your reasoning and understand where you are going - but it may not be that simple.
Mueller may also surprise people , nothing is written in stone. Some of the things thrown out in public are not clear cut.
Saying that a president cannot be indicted is not 100% accurate - that has yet to be tested.
I somewhat agree with your comments but I do not discount that Mueller and/or the SDNY or the NY AG might throw something else in the mix.
I also get the 67 Senate count but again that is just where we are today - and tomorrow - there could be something that weighs differently for those Senators having to vote to impeach or not impeach.
Trump could very easily do something that hurts his case even more so those comments you made may be proven inaccurate.
...oh and of course, other charges/indictments may add to the mix. Say - direct Russia conspiracy indictments that everyone seems to dismiss (on trump team -that is) could also end up being revealed before too long.
all true enough. we'll see.
it's possible that the ac ulation of indictments/verdicts could do enough reputational damage to DJT to undermine his support in the US Senate.
if things aren't bad enough already to have done so, one wonders how bad things would have to get. the GOP to all appearances is the Trump party. if the Senate removed Trump, a lot of Senators would have to piss backwards on their own voters.
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