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looks like they have their own sheriff clarke
Seems like a rational individual.
Doesn't sound like anyone doubts her claim that she went to the wrong apartment by mistake. It's the shooting itself that is being debated, and I doubt the jury is going to find that it amounts to murder but I don't see how it's not at the very least criminally negligent homicide.
looks like they have their own sheriff clarke
Seems like a rational individual.
i cant see how its negligent homicide though. that usually fits a narrow set of cir stances, like leaving a child in a car on a hot day leading to the death of the child. here's an article discussing the fringe applicability https://www.zenlawfirm.com/law-blog/...omicide-texas/
imo her actions fit the penal code definition of murder, just not capital murder. so imo she's either going to be convicted for murder, as she intentionally killed the guy, or at the very least, intended to cause serious bodily injury (by virtue of shooting him) and leading to his death. those are the definitions of murder in texas.
she's going to raise the defense of self-defense to get her off the hook, and the jury will either agree or disagree with that defense. "sudden passion' or "adequate cause" would only have an impact during sentencing.
Makes sense. Murder just seems harsh on a case of mistaken iden y.
Killing an intruder is justifiable homicide (right?), so it seems like killing someone you MISTAKE for an intruder shouldn't swing the charge all the way the other direction. I could see manslaughter... If you kill someone by driving recklessly, that's manslaughter, so couldn't they argue she killed Botham-Jean in a reckless act of self defense?
i'm not intimately familiar with the the case law in texas, so i'm just going by the text of the penal code... but the federal common law is that mistaken justification can bump down the crime to a lower degree, but again, that's basically just a sentencing issue. but the jury is bound by the text of the penal code. even if murder "feels" harsh, that's sorta what they have to go with, and they can make findings that there was mistaken justification or adequate provocation or some like that, and that can be a mitigating factor in sentencing. or they can buy her story that it was completely self defense and just acquit her altogether.
but if she is found guilty, murder is the only crime that fits per the code, from my understanding of the facts of the case. thats why i was very confused when before charges were pressed, people here like Spurs Homer were saying she should just be charged with manslaughter. didnt make any sense. even if this doesnt "feel" like murder, this wasn't a case where the killing itself was a "reckless" action. she fired a gun at somebody. that's beyond being reckless, she shot with intent to injure/kill. her justification or reason goes toward defenses or mitigating sentencing, but doesnt come into play when deciding what the underlying crime was
Yeah as spurraider21 said, the facts of the case fit with the Texas state charge of murder (which is 2nd degree). The 'harshness' can be taken care of in the sentencing, as I believe the sentence goes as low as 5 years.
She did too many actions that imo cannot be defended as reasonable:
- Parked on wrong floor (it could happen)
- Went through wrong floor without noticing (sure)
- Went to wrong unit and didn't see red rug on floor (ok sure)
- door was partially open and she chose to barge into unit vs cover/call for backup as protocol (officers testified this)
- may or may have not shouted anything to the victim (neighbors only heard gunshots)
- bullet entered downwards, would support him being on sofa or trying to get up (along with his body being 15 feet from front door)
- she claimed she administrated CPR but no blood or residue on her uniform or latex gloves she had
- was texting her co-worker/lover before and after shooting victim (probably distracted), and she deleted all texts between them (and so did lover)
I believe she's lying about key parts of the story in order to protect herself (e.g. he ignored commands and was coming towards her while simultaneously crouching while having gun trained on him)
i really dont see how they can convict her of murder
murder would apply if the jury just thinks she is 100% lying and she was out to kill this guy for whatever motives they think she has/had
manslaughter fits better because she is basically saying “i ed up- i thought i was shooting an intruder in my home”
if that is true and/or if the jury buys that then they would naturally conclude that her actions were reckless and she is guilty of causing a death by reckless actions
which is pretty much a form of manslaughter imo
these are your opinions of what murder and manslaughter mean, though. the jury is bound by the text of the penal code. i'm sorry that those two aren't aligned, but that's the reality of the situation
were her actions preceding the homicide reckless? maybe. but that's not the question of "recklessness" that is relevant with respect to murder/manslaughter. that refers to the instant act of the killing. if you shoot somebody with a gun, that is intent to kill. reckless homicide would be something like parents not taking a sick child to the hospital or giving it medication, allowing it to die. or firing a gun into the air, without any intent to hit anybody, as a celebration, and then it happens to strike somebody in a building across the street. or playing russian roulette. supplying somebody with drugs like heroin, knowing they have no idea how to safely (relatively speaking) use it.if that is true and/or if the jury buys that then they would naturally conclude that her actions were reckless and she is guilty of causing a death by reckless actions
which is pretty much a form of manslaughter imo
shooting a gun directly at somebody is not mere recklessness
When I first saw it was a murder charge I thought the same thing, that it should be manslaughter or something. Until I looked up the law. Seems like we need a different category for cases like this (assuming she's not lying). What's a good legal term for I unintentionally intentionally killed the guy? Murslaughter, Mander?
if she's not lying and the guy was attacking her despite an order and lunged at her with a gun visible to her, then she probably just walks because they say she acted in legitimate self defense.
if they otherwise say that while she wasn't justified to shoot him in self defense, but she reasonably believed she had to based on her mistakes, then it would probably be considered "adequate cause" which would knock it down to a 2nd degree felony, and that would be a big deal when it comes to sentencing. still murder though
people need to distinguish with her intent in the big picture (did she intent to find this guy in his home and murder him) and intent with respect to the homicide (at the moment she acted, was she or was she not trying to kill him). here, with respect to homicide, she fired a gun at him. that's an intentional act to kill. the justification is separated and addressed above
the only way you get to manslaughter (reckless homicide) or negligent homicide is if the actual act of killing was reckless/negligent. see the examples in my previous post for those. there is no situation where this case would be reckless/negligent, unless she made some claim like she thought her gun was empty or the safety was on, and she wasn't actually trying to discharge a shot... or if she tried to fire a warning shot in the ceiling and he got killed via ricochet
That last line
cannot always apply
for example: “i pulled the trigger because i was in fear for my life”
sure - she was confused/scared/whatever but her state of mind was “there is an intruder in MY house and i must shoot or be shot”
i havent been following the case - so i have no idea what her lawyers are saying but there are cir stances where a person can pull a trigger and not be guilty of murder
thats still intentional homicide. you continue to confuse the intent of the actual act of killing (firing of the gun) with something like premeditation. those aren't the same thing
and intentional homicide can still be completely justified as self defense and the defendant can walk free. look at george zimmerman. the jury believed that he was acting in self defense, despite the fact that he intentionally shot trayvon with an intent to kill or cause serious bodily injury. but zimmerman still committed intentionally homicide. it was just deemed justified. murder is an intentional homicide without legal justification
ok
that seems to make sense
and
still cannot see her being convicted of murder
Guyger testified today that she entered knowing someone was in the apartment, so she went in, gun drawn, instead of retreating to safety and calling for back up.
Didn't catch the whole bit on NPR, but she agreed with the prosecutor she had two chances not to do what she decided to do.
Still would prefer a murslaughter charge though.
I accidentally started to get into a car the other day that I mistook for my Uber. I'm glad I didn't get shot.
so you want the penal code re-written
Still would prefer a murslaughter charge though.
better comparison is somebody else got into your car thinking it was their uber ride, then saw you and shot you
Oh no doubt but it's a true story, not really an attempt at a direct comparison.
Anything to protect a cop from legal responsibility for her own actions.
I actually agree with him and it's nothing to do with her being a cop. If Guyger can't be charged with anything less than murder (and if the nature of that charge makes it likely she could get off with no time at all) then the current penal standards and definitions may be too rigid for a case like this.
I disagree, but that’s a fair point.
If it were anyone but a cop we probably wouldn’t be having this conversation.
She is going to jail for 4 years.
Meh if it was Botham Jean breaking into Guyger's apartment and murdering her in "self-defense" he'd be looking at the needle in a capital murder charge.
If the sentence for murder is between 5-99 years like I've read, I don't know what makes the charge of murder too rigid.
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