Alexandria ocasio Cortez is a breath of fresh air

[RandomGuy]

No, she didn't. Feel free to support that assertion [about $26 billion dollars]

More factless bull tery.

Loses a long battle after having won it for 25,000 jobs
gas lights the forum to suggest it's for the best
"there'll be other opportunities"
mathematically challenged liberal wealthy looking out for the poor

[smiley][derision]

Taking a page from spurminator's playbook. You're upping your game. SAD!

What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. [smiley][derision] doesn't really count.

If you had anything to back up your claim, you could provide it easily. You chose not to.

The funniest part is that you are trying to make fun of the concept of opportunity cost, as if your mockery makes the concept invalid.
I'm sure that would come as a surprise to people with PhD's in economics or accounting.

"holy did you see this new academic paper by this guy on basket ball forum? HE SAID LOL!! Our understanding of the economy is turned upside down"

[CosmicCowboy]

... who happens to be running rings around Trump party officials and conservatives on social media. What does it say about conservative politicians that they are getting pwned so hard by "a walking, talking Cluster ?

Being snarky on social media does not necessarily equal good politics or good policy. There is no doubt the media has given her more power than is justified by her position as a newly elected junior representative because her constant stream of inflammatory comments have been deemed newsworthy. The irony is she is forcing the 2020 political discussion so far left that the candidate that ultimately survives the primary will probably have taken such far left positions to pass that hurdle that they will be crippled in the general election having to defend them. The attack ads will be vicious.

[pgardn]

Being snarky on social media does not necessarily equal good politics or good policy. There is no doubt the media has given her more power than is justified by her position as a newly elected junior representative because her constant stream of inflammatory comments have been deemed newsworthy. The irony is she is forcing the 2020 political discussion so far left that the candidate that ultimately survives the primary will probably have taken such far left positions to pass that hurdle that they will be crippled in the general election having to defend them. The attack ads will be vicious.

Sounds like

Trump.

Only he holds a bit more important position

[DMC]

That's ridiculous. Access to buildings has nothing to do with socialism. You couldn't walk into the KGB building in communist Russia either, yet nobody would doubt for a second to call it communism. You probably can't walk into Maduro's banana republic palace right now.

In addition, their assets come both from the private industry AND government. Los Alamos is not a private sector business, it's a government owned and funded lab. The first ever nukes were produced in it's entirety there. And you can ask Hiroshima and Nagasaki what that product looked like. Coming to more recent days, the NSA is well known for producing exploits (that were leaked a while back) to access adversary systems, in-house. That they don't sell them or distribute them, doesn't make it any less of a product.

That the government opts to subcontract a lot of the production doesn't turn all the system upside down into, suddenly, a capitalist system. A lot of the R&D some of these companies obtain to build those products were actually funded by the taxpayers (and, I did admit that there's a capitalist component in those transactions).

Let's see a basic definition of socialism:
A political and economic theory of social organization that advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.

The military is outright owned and regulated by our representatives, thus by extension, the community. They might not take direct orders from the general public, but they sure as heck take orders from the representatives the general public put in place, AND get paid from the general public's taxed monies.

Communism is the system that can't divorce the political from the economic side, that's not the case with socialism. That's why there's Social-Democracies all around the world, where social programs live next to capitalism and a democratic political system.

And lastly, if your contention holds true, then Medicare, Medicaid, Foodstamps, none of those are socialism either. They don't control the means of production. They don't distribute any good, or have a product. Under that premise, Medicare for all is not socialism?

You gave the definition then you set out to debunk it. Community as a whole does not equal "our representatives". Congress and the POTUS controls the military, the community has no say. Otherwise martial law could never be in effect. What part of socialism allows you to opt out? What part of socialism puts you in prison for quitting your job? What part has you invading another country to secure oil fields for capitalists who never served a day?

The programs you mentioned are not departments, these are programs. Do you think the Dept of Agriculture is a socialist department? I agree some aspects of military life resemble socialism, like living on a base (not free btw) but that's about as far as it goes. If you receive separate rations and live off base, you eat off base most of the time. You have to pay for your uniforms even though you get a small allowance. There are private contractors working beside you most of the time especially on new platforms. There are GS level employees overseeing a lot of what the military departments are doing. They make exponentially more than the soldiers, sailors and airmen doing basically the same jobs. That's hardly socialism. Again, it is made up of volunteers who come and go. Socialism isn't.

[CosmicCowboy]

Sounds like

Trump.

Only he holds a bit more important position

No argument there.


It is shaping up to be another election with two bad choices.

[RandomGuy]

Being snarky on social media does not necessarily equal good politics or good policy. There is no doubt the media has given her more power than is justified by her position as a newly elected junior representative because her constant stream of inflammatory comments have been deemed newsworthy. The irony is she is forcing the 2020 political discussion so far left that the candidate that ultimately survives the primary will probably have taken such far left positions to pass that hurdle that they will be crippled in the general election having to defend them. The attack ads will be vicious.

#oblivious

That is what your propaganda overlords have told you to believe. Honestly, I am not going to disabuse you of anything here.

You ers already say centrists are "communists". At some point, it becomes the boy who cried wolf. The independents are going to quit coming 'round. Already have if the polls are accurate.

Washington elites of BOTH sides overestimate how conservative the country is, with Trump party officials overestimating that by a very, very wide margin.

Trump opened the populist genie bottle, and the former Republican party bought into it, forgetting the lesson of history that populism is just as much, if not more, of a left trope. It is like letting your opponent choose the battlefield.

The Trump party will pay the price at the polls, and has fully enabled that shift by being so extremely right as to be MORE unattractive than any cliched cry of "muh socialism".

[CosmicCowboy]

#oblivious

That is what your propaganda overlords have told you to believe. Honestly, I am not going to disabuse you of anything here.

You ers already say centrists are "communists". At some point, it becomes the boy who cried wolf. The independents are going to quit coming 'round. Already have if the polls are accurate.

Washington elites of BOTH sides overestimate how conservative the country is, with Trump party officials overestimating that by a very, very wide margin.

Trump opened the populist genie bottle, and the former Republican party bought into it, forgetting the lesson of history that populism is just as much, if not more, of a left trope. It is like letting your opponent choose the battlefield.

The Trump party will pay the price at the polls, and has fully enabled that shift by being so extremely right as to be MORE unattractive than any cliched cry of "muh socialism".

You are one to talk about "Propaganda overlords" telling you what to believe.

You have swallowed the blue pill and look to the radical echo chamber to validate your beliefs.

I have said before that I don't like trump and sincerely hope someone primaries him, but IMHO the country isn't ready to jump off the green dream cliff yet.

[pgardn]

No argument there.


It is shaping up to be another election with two bad choices.

Except one bad choice has proven himself utterly incompetent at THE job.

When the tide turns, it could get quite ugly.
Oh no's, socialism!
I'll take it over crony capitalism from a liar.

[CosmicCowboy]

I am confident Biden could beat Trump, but IMHO Biden won't survive the primary. The lefts version of the "Tea Party" appears to be in control of the message.

[CosmicCowboy]

Except one bad choice has proven himself utterly incompetent at THE job.

When the tide turns, it could get quite ugly.
Oh no's, socialism!
I'll take it over crony capitalism from a liar.

No argument that Trump has been a disaster as a President, but the green dream would be an even greater, more permanent disaster if actually enacted.

[Trill Clinton]

Being snarky on social media does not necessarily equal good politics or good policy. There is no doubt the media has given her more power than is justified by her position as a newly elected junior representative because her constant stream of inflammatory comments have been deemed newsworthy. The irony is she is forcing the 2020 political discussion so far left that the candidate that ultimately survives the primary will probably have taken such far left positions to pass that hurdle that they will be crippled in the general election having to defend them. The attack ads will be vicious.

I think conservatives are giving her legitimacy and "power" due to how whatever she says and does y'all scream bloody murder over it. It's just like how trump triggered libs all over again except not as bad.

[pgardn]

I am confident Biden could beat Trump, but IMHO Biden won't survive the primary. The lefts version of the "Tea Party" appears to be in control of the message.

We sort of agree. Red team did not control their boy. Now you get candidates lining up against his stupidity and angry.

State of Emergency due to Green House gases and climate change should be interesting.

[CosmicCowboy]

I think conservatives are giving her legitimacy and "power" due to how whatever she says and does y'all scream bloody murder over it. It's just like how trump triggered libs all over again except not as bad.

The coverage has been pretty equal on both sides of the political spectrum. You realize AOC is attacking and threatening moderate Democrats as well, don't you?

[pgardn]

In other news, the board continues to try and pin down socialism since red team has used the term whenever.

[Trill Clinton]

The coverage has been pretty equal on both sides of the political spectrum. You realize AOC is attacking and threatening moderate Democrats as well, don't you?

Are you talking about the gun bill list?

Warning them is not an attack or threat and I'm all for it. I'm all for holding elected officials accountable which is what she's doing.

[Will Hunting]

I still don’t understand the idea that candidates are crippled by “far left” ideas like universal healthcare, higher taxes on the rich, or actually addressing climate change in a general election.

Hillary Clinton and John Kerry are two of the most bland centrists in the history of the Democratic Party and they both performed horribly in a general election. The Clintonian strategy of running just a little to the left of the tea party led to Conservatives dominating both houses of Congress, SCOTUS, gubernatorial elections, and state legislature races. It’s abundantly clear that the Dems need to get back to running candidates with strong ideals instead of careful politicians who need to put their finger in the air to see how the political winds are blowing before they’re willing to say anything.

[CosmicCowboy]

I am interested to see how the far left can make the numbers work to pay for the 50-92 trillion of new programs that are proposed. Just "taxing the rich" won't cut it.

[Winehole23]

Cocaine Mitch mentions the DSA by name in the well of the Senate, giving it much greater visibiliity than it would have all on its own.

Say whatever you want about the DSA, the policies it offers are very popular among voters.

Republicans' knee jerk demonization of Democrats as socialists could finally backfire among voters weary of incrementalist bull .

[RandomGuy]

I still don’t understand the idea that candidates are crippled by “far left” ideas like universal healthcare, higher taxes on the rich, or actually addressing climate change in a general election.

Hillary Clinton and John Kerry are two of the most bland centrists in the history of the Democratic Party and they both performed horribly in a general election. The Clintonian strategy of running just a little to the left of the tea party led to Conservatives dominating both houses of Congress, SCOTUS, gubernatorial elections, and state legislature races. It’s abundantly clear that the Dems need to get back to running candidates with strong ideals instead of careful politicians who need to put their finger in the air to see how the political winds are blowing before they’re willing to say anything.

Agreed.

The "far left" charge is simply the right trying to set the narrative. The people leveling that charge most, will be the ones who consume the Fox "news" diet of pablum, with CosmicCowboy being a prime example of that demographic, both age and income-wise.

Standard information warfare, and conservatives are pretty good at it, as it has worked for them in the past. Liberals have started getting a lot more savvy in that regard, so the efficacy of the strategy will wane.

What is funny is that the right, by being so extreme, will allow the left maneuver room to scoot slightly leftward, which will intensify the screechy charges of "socialism", in a self-defeating session of target practice at their own feet.

Conservatives have hidden behind the word and the assumption that "socialism bad" so long, their ability to make the case for why its bad has atrophied. Ask any of them to give a working definition, and then ask them to differentiate between that definition and outright communism. They can't tell the difference, and that is damning.

[RandomGuy]

I am interested to see how the far left can make the numbers work to pay for the 50-92 trillion of new programs that are proposed. Just "taxing the rich" won't cut it.

(shrugs)

What are the cost of the alternatives? The right loves to lie about that.

Let me take a page from your playbook here.

The alternatives to these programs will cost $100-$300 trillion dollars.

Why do you want to damage our economy like that?

[Will Hunting]

Agreed.

The "far left" charge is simply the right trying to set the narrative. The people leveling that charge most, will be the ones who consume the Fox "news" diet of pablum, with CosmicCowboy being a prime example of that demographic, both age and income-wise.

Standard information warfare, and conservatives are pretty good at it, as it has worked for them in the past. Liberals have started getting a lot more savvy in that regard, so the efficacy of the strategy will wane.

What is funny is that the right, by being so extreme, will allow the left maneuver room to scoot slightly leftward, which will intensify the screechy charges of "socialism", in a self-defeating session of target practice at their own feet.

Conservatives have hidden behind the word and the assumption that "socialism bad" so long, their ability to make the case for why its bad has atrophied. Ask any of them to give a working definition, and then ask them to differentiate between that definition and outright communism. They can't tell the difference, and that is damning.

The Dems have more or less “taken the bait” for the last few decades by backing off of popular views like universal healthcare to avoid being called socialists or leftists by Fox News and the result has been bland, eggheaded candidates like John Kerry completely devoid of any ideals.

They’re finally responding the right way by more or less saying I really don’t give a if you want to label me with words like socialist, this is what helps Americans the most and it’s what I believe in.

[CosmicCowboy]

Agreed.

The "far left" charge is simply the right trying to set the narrative. The people leveling that charge most, will be the ones who consume the Fox "news" diet of pablum, with CosmicCowboy being a prime example of that demographic, both age and income-wise.

Standard information warfare, and conservatives are pretty good at it, as it has worked for them in the past. Liberals have started getting a lot more savvy in that regard, so the efficacy of the strategy will wane.

What is funny is that the right, by being so extreme, will allow the left maneuver room to scoot slightly leftward, which will intensify the screechy charges of "socialism", in a self-defeating session of target practice at their own feet.

Conservatives have hidden behind the word and the assumption that "socialism bad" so long, their ability to make the case for why its bad has atrophied. Ask any of them to give a working definition, and then ask them to differentiate between that definition and outright communism. They can't tell the difference, and that is damning.

I have no doubt that the inevitable trend is towards the government growing and growing and promising more free stuff as the demographic changes and more and more of the populace demands and votes in "free" stuff. Eventually you will run out of other peoples money.

You guys will deserve what you get. I hate that my kids and grandkids will have to live with that escalating show but hopefully I can leave them a few million to help them survive it. AOC was right that it is a bad time to have kids, just for the wrong reasons.

[RandomGuy]

The Dems have more or less “taken the bait” for the last few decades by backing off of popular views like universal healthcare to avoid being called socialists or leftists by Fox News and the result has been bland, eggheaded candidates like John Kerry completely devoid of any ideals.

They’re finally responding the right way by more or less saying I really don’t give a if you want to label me with words like socialist, this is what helps Americans the most and it’s what I believe in.

That is pretty much what I have been hoping they would do for decades. Took long enough.

Left policies help more people, and make the economy better in more ways than anything the right has offered in the last 30 years. The left has no shortage of good ideas, and the right has "tax cuts for the rich", which is the easiest thing to disprove in shorthand, "KANSAS".

Once you take away that old saw, they have nothing. It is sad/funny to watch.

[RandomGuy]

I have no doubt that the inevitable trend is towards the government growing and growing and promising more free stuff as the demographic changes and more and more of the populace demands and votes in "free" stuff. Eventually you will run out of other peoples money.

You guys will deserve what you get. I hate that my kids and grandkids will have to live with that escalating show but hopefully I can leave them a few million to help them survive it. AOC was right that it is a bad time to have kids, just for the wrong reasons.

The costs of doing nothing outweigh the costs of doing something. The problem with "running out of other people's money" is that taxes for such things simply go right back out into the economy, and bounce around creating more GDP. if you understood economics you would know that, which is bloody ironic.

We will get a country that means you can go to the hospital, or encounter a sudden bill and not go homeless. The right will scream bloody murder at this, and in the end discredit themselves.

Your preferred policies cost our society more than anything the left has ever proposed.

[CosmicCowboy]

The costs of doing nothing outweigh the costs of doing something. The problem with "running out of other people's money" is that taxes for such things simply go right back out into the economy, and bounce around creating more GDP. if you understood economics you would know that, which is bloody ironic.

We will get a country that means you can go to the hospital, or encounter a sudden bill and not go homeless. The right will scream bloody murder at this, and in the end discredit themselves.

Your preferred policies cost our society more than anything the left has ever proposed.

We are currently running trillion dollar annual deficits which is the fault of both parties. No argument there. What do you propose to cut in order to provide all the new benefits? Do you propose to just monetize the debt? It's the only way I see it getting done.