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  1. #301
    I Don't Even Care Anymore Millennial_Messiah's Avatar
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    Trade makes sense, the only way Spags runs a successful defense is a loaded front 4 that can get pressure while he drops 7 into coverage.
    Sort of like how the NFC East teams beat the Patriots in all 3 of their last meetings, by rushing only four every down. (Eagles gave up 600 yards and 33 points though.)
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  2. #302
    Savvy Veteran spurraider21's Avatar
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    chiefs coulda just signed trey flowers instead of trading for frank clark. keep a first rounder.

    it boggles my mind that they dumped a first rounder. clark is a really good player but he's not elite.

  3. #303
    Savvy Veteran spurraider21's Avatar
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    also, random vid but holy ...


  4. #304
    I Don't Even Care Anymore Millennial_Messiah's Avatar
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    chiefs coulda just signed trey flowers instead of trading for frank clark. keep a first rounder.

    it boggles my mind that they dumped a first rounder. clark is a really good player but he's not elite.
    Trey Flowers is a LDE/strong side DE. Very similar player to the Eagles' Brandon Graham. Not going to get more than a solid 7-8 sacks per season but is elite against the run and often comes up with that timely sack/fumble in the playoffs, especially if he's playing DT on passing downs.

    Clark is the opposite. Weakside, speed, quick twitch, a monster off the edge on passing downs... below average against the run.

    Not really an apple to apples comparison IMO.

  5. #305
    I Don't Even Care Anymore Millennial_Messiah's Avatar
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    chiefs coulda just signed trey flowers instead of trading for frank clark. keep a first rounder.

    it boggles my mind that they dumped a first rounder. clark is a really good player but he's not elite.
    Chiefs are in win now mode so I think they figure that any late 1st round rookie wouldn't help them as much as a guy in his prime. Once they pay Mahomes his record-shattering $45 Million/Year (85-90% guaranteed), 7+ year contract, they'll basically be another one of "those" teams that makes the playoffs many years just on the QB's arm, but won't be a perennial, every-year contender... think the Chargers, Colts, Falcons, Packers, even the Saints.

  6. #306
    Savvy Veteran spurraider21's Avatar
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    The Kyler Murray/Josh Rosen situation is leading to some great drama tbh

    looks like they're holding out for a first round pick. washington has balked at that and is planning to move into the top 5. there are some crazy reports coming in that Dan Snyder has essentially "taken over" the Redskins first round of the draft, instead of the GM, Coaches, etc. They're gonna do something crazy






    Would be quite the boss move if Arizona is able to turn their posturing into a massive draft haul for #1 while they just do the simple thing and keep Rosen. though ideally the skins trade up to #2 to draft a QB, increasing the chance that bosa miraculously falls to 4
    Last edited by spurraider21; 04-24-2019 at 02:33 PM.

  7. #307
    I Don't Even Care Anymore Millennial_Messiah's Avatar
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    The Kyler Murray/Josh Rosen situation is leading to some great drama tbh

    looks like they're holding out for a first round pick. washington has balked at that and is planning to move into the top 5. there are some crazy reports coming in that Dan Snyder has essentially "taken over" the Redskins first round of the draft, instead of the GM, Coaches, etc. They're gonna do something crazy






    Would be quite the boss move if Arizona is able to turn their posturing into a massive draft haul for #1 while they just do the simple thing and keep Rosen. though ideally the skins trade up to #2 to draft a QB, increasing the chance that bosa miraculously falls to 4
    Redskins are gonna go out of their way to get Haskins. I think he's their guy. I never saw him with the Giants anyways. Giants will likely draft other pieces and get a developmental guy like Grier. They could go after Lock or Jones though.

  8. #308
    Savvy Veteran spurraider21's Avatar
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    Redskins are gonna go out of their way to get Haskins. I think he's their guy. I never saw him with the Giants anyways. Giants will likely draft other pieces and get a developmental guy like Grier. They could go after Lock or Jones though.



  9. #309
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    But do the Redskins have enough assets to trade up to 4? They'd probably have to give up 1st, 2nd from the next 2 drafts plus a decent young player on a rookie contract AND a couple mid round picks. 15 to 4 is an incredibly high jump.

  10. #310
    Savvy Veteran spurraider21's Avatar
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    the tweet above says the bucs are a potential trade partner, but if the skins truly want haskins, they likely have to move higher to be safe. there is enough buzz that the jets are trying to trade down, and there is some buzz (i dont buy) that the raiders like haskins at #4 as well. moving up to 5 wouldn't make sense. they'd have to let the first 4 picks play out and then jump. but if they really want haskins, they have to be proactive and move up to #4 and possibly #3

  11. #311
    Savvy Veteran spurraider21's Avatar
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  12. #312
    I Don't Even Care Anymore Millennial_Messiah's Avatar
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    the tweet above says the bucs are a potential trade partner, but if the skins truly want haskins, they likely have to move higher to be safe. there is enough buzz that the jets are trying to trade down, and there is some buzz (i dont buy) that the raiders like haskins at #4 as well. moving up to 5 wouldn't make sense. they'd have to let the first 4 picks play out and then jump. but if they really want haskins, they have to be proactive and move up to #4 and possibly #3
    If Nick Bosa isn't there I think any trade down is a good idea for the Raiders. There isn't really much difference between the "upper" red chippers and the other red chippers, as true for most drafts. Denzel Ward and Derwin James picks could have easily been swapped tbh, but Ward went 4th and James went 17th. Doesn't make Ward 13 premium picks better than James, but it comes down to a) team-based needs and b) how well a workout with an individual team went.

  13. #313
    Savvy Veteran spurraider21's Avatar
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    If Nick Bosa isn't there I think any trade down is a good idea for the Raiders. There isn't really much difference between the "upper" red chippers and the other red chippers, as true for most drafts. Denzel Ward and Derwin James picks could have easily been swapped tbh, but Ward went 4th and James went 17th. Doesn't make Ward 13 premium picks better than James, but it comes down to a) team-based needs and b) how well a workout with an individual team went.
    barring some absurd offer like the redskins trying to move down to 4... i think the raiders should absolutely stand pat at 4 and select Quinnen Williams (assuming he's available. or obviously bosa who has almost 0% chance of falling past 2). he's a blue chipper.

    if bosa/quinnen are gone with the raiders on the clock, that means murray is the only QB off the board, and teams like the giants/bengals/dolphins/redskins are biting at the chomp to move up and get their QB of choice. you'd have good trade-down opportunities. but if you're not getting great offers, there's no pressure, as Josh Allen is still a really strong pick there. i dont want to see the raiders taking a QB there, nor should they reach for Ed Oliver. i think 4 is too early for him.

    derwin james is not a great example... his fall was completed unexpected. he wasn't supposed to get past 12. ward was easily the top corner prospect in the draft, but nobody expected him to go as high as #4

  14. #314
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    barring some absurd offer like the redskins trying to move down to 4... i think the raiders should absolutely stand pat at 4 and select Quinnen Williams (assuming he's available. or obviously bosa who has almost 0% chance of falling past 2). he's a blue chipper.

    if bosa/quinnen are gone with the raiders on the clock, that means murray is the only QB off the board, and teams like the giants/bengals/dolphins/redskins are biting at the chomp to move up and get their QB of choice. you'd have good trade-down opportunities. but if you're not getting great offers, there's no pressure, as Josh Allen is still a really strong pick there. i dont want to see the raiders taking a QB there, nor should they reach for Ed Oliver. i think 4 is too early for him.

    derwin james is not a great example... his fall was completed unexpected. he wasn't supposed to get past 12. ward was easily the top corner prospect in the draft, but nobody expected him to go as high as #4
    But like you said Josh Allen is a red chipper, upper red chipper or not, so that's worst case scenario. #4 overall should be a franchise player and not sure you want to spend that on Anthony Barr or Bruce Irvin. A guy who can do a lot of everything but isn't a monster at anything.

  15. #315
    Savvy Veteran spurraider21's Avatar
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    But like you said Josh Allen is a red chipper, upper red chipper or not, so that's worst case scenario. #4 overall should be a franchise player and not sure you want to spend that on Anthony Barr or Bruce Irvin. A guy who can do a lot of everything but isn't a monster at anything.
    i think he's close. he's a blue chipper in a 3-4 scheme imo, as a natural fit for OLB. i just dont think 4-3 OLBs are ever really considered blue chippers. but his talent is obvious. he'd still be a very good OLB because he has really good coverage skills and is aggressive vs the run, but positional value becomes a concern... and that's why i dont think he's in the bosa/quinnen tier from a raider fan perspective. it would depend on the trade-down package they get. if teams are fighting to move up for a QB, then i dont think it would take too much convincing. but they shouldnt trade down just for the sake of trading down unless the offer is right. they can fall back 5-10 spots and wind up with sweat/gary/burns which would be a good deal imo.

    but if they dont get a good offer and take Josh Allen its still a decent pick. just not the ideal scenario (Quinnen)

  16. #316
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    i think he's close. he's a blue chipper in a 3-4 scheme imo, as a natural fit for OLB. i just dont think 4-3 OLBs are ever really considered blue chippers. but his talent is obvious. he'd still be a very good OLB because he has really good coverage skills and is aggressive vs the run, but positional value becomes a concern... and that's why i dont think he's in the bosa/quinnen tier from a raider fan perspective. it would depend on the trade-down package they get. if teams are fighting to move up for a QB, then i dont think it would take too much convincing. but they shouldnt trade down just for the sake of trading down unless the offer is right. they can fall back 5-10 spots and wind up with sweat/gary/burns which would be a good deal imo.

    but if they dont get a good offer and take Josh Allen its still a decent pick. just not the ideal scenario (Quinnen)
    I just hard to think there is such a thing as a blue chip 3-4 OLB who isn't going to be close to a perennial 13-15+ sack-a-year average guy. When you think of the "blue chip" 3-4 OLBs you think of the elite speedy sack demons off the edge... the LTs, Von Millers, DeMarcus Wares, Khalil Macks, Myles Garretts etc. of the world.

    What you have in Allen is a hybrid. He's definitely not "perfect" for a 3-4 OLB mold but he'll likely land there if he gets drafted to a 3-4 team, though he might not rush the passer in base (5 man front, the standard 3-4 base formation) and play either EDGE rusher or coverage ILB in sub/passing downs (4 man fronts). What I think he is is a perfect 4-3 OLB but like you said, that's just not such a premium position even though it can make an impact.

    The only way I see him thriving as a 3-4 OLB is if it's more of a "zone blitz" type unpredictable 3-4 scheme like the one Dom Capers ran in Green Bay all those years. Gives him pass rushing snaps and drops him back at times, dropping other guys on the line at random. Allen could be the next Clay Matthews perhaps in a 3-4. But a full time pass rusher, he is not. He's a tailor made Anthony Barr, Bruce Irvin like 4-3 OLB.

  17. #317
    Savvy Veteran spurraider21's Avatar
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    Allen is a perfect 3-4 OLB

    garrett is exclusively a 4-3 guy. Mack can play either. Von/Ware are best in 3-4.

    allen will still be a good 4-3 backer, but i donít see him as 4-3 DE. Main reason being i donít think he holds up in the run game against tackles though he can dominate tight ends. In a 3-4, the DEís do a lot of dirty work in the run game

    the difference seems minor, and for some players, it can be interchangeable, but not everybody works well in both schemes. its why the Chiefs trade Dee Ford and traded for Frank Clark. they are moving from 3-4 (where Ford was a good OLB) to a 4-3 (where Ford doesnt perfectly fit). i think josh allen could still play in a 4-3 as a linebacker because he's strong in coverage, too.
    Last edited by spurraider21; 04-25-2019 at 12:21 PM.

  18. #318
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    Allen is a perfect 3-4 OLB

    garrett is exclusively a 4-3 guy. Mack can play either. Von/Ware are best in 3-4.

    allen will still be a good 4-3 backer, but i donít see him as 4-3 DE. Main reason being i donít think he holds up in the run game against tackles though he can dominate tight ends. In a 3-4, the DEís do a lot of dirty work in the run game

    the difference seems minor, and for some players, it can be interchangeable, but not everybody works well in both schemes. its why the Chiefs trade Dee Ford and traded for Frank Clark. they are moving from 3-4 (where Ford was a good OLB) to a 4-3 (where Ford doesnt perfectly fit). i think josh allen could still play in a 4-3 as a linebacker because he's strong in coverage, too.
    A 3-4 OLB takes on tackles the majority of the time these days. Often but not always on based downs, but definitely on longer/sub package downs. Because even a base 3-4 defense is primarily a 4-2-5 nickel defense where the "OLBs" actually play DE a majority of the time (you usually just take the biggest or least talented guy off the interior of the Dline). So a 3-4 OLB plays on-ball, hand-in-the-dirt DE technique a majority of snaps in today's NFL... which isn't Josh Allen's game, as we've both alluded to.

    Unless you want the guy to be a Jack linebacker... basically a 3-4 OLB (not the primary pass rusher) who can either drop back or blitz on base downs and play off ball ILB on sub package downs when you subs ute in a "pass rush specialist" in his sub package DE spot on pass downs... but that seems like a waste of resources.

  19. #319
    Savvy Veteran spurraider21's Avatar
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    A 3-4 OLB takes on tackles the majority of the time these days. Often but not always on based downs, but definitely on longer/sub package downs. Because even a base 3-4 defense is primarily a 4-2-5 nickel defense where the "OLBs" actually play DE a majority of the time (you usually just take the biggest or least talented guy off the interior of the Dline). So a 3-4 OLB plays on-ball, hand-in-the-dirt DE technique a majority of snaps in today's NFL... which isn't Josh Allen's game, as we've both alluded to.

    Unless you want the guy to be a Jack linebacker... basically a 3-4 OLB (not the primary pass rusher) who can either drop back or blitz on base downs and play off ball ILB on sub package downs when you subs ute in a "pass rush specialist" in his sub package DE spot on pass downs... but that seems like a waste of resources.
    you're right that at some point, the positional distinctions become silly. i think he can beat tackles on pass rushing downs. i just dont see him taking on tackles every down because he wouldnt hold up against the run. so the raiders still have room for him, he'd be an OLB in base and a DE in nickel. raiders beat writers dont seem to think the raiders love josh allen. they want Quinnen or Ed Oliver. of course theres also the QB wildcard but the raiders writers dont really seem to believe the haskins at #4 stuff

  20. #320
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    you're right that at some point, the positional distinctions become silly. i think he can beat tackles on pass rushing downs. i just dont see him taking on tackles every down because he wouldnt hold up against the run. so the raiders still have room for him, he'd be an OLB in base and a DE in nickel. raiders beat writers dont seem to think the raiders love josh allen. they want Quinnen or Ed Oliver. of course theres also the QB wildcard but the raiders writers dont really seem to believe the haskins at #4 stuff
    Because they just cut that guy...Bruce Irvin... even though he's older he still was good. That's the type of player Allen is. At least the Seattle version of Irvin anyways.

  21. #321
    Savvy Veteran spurraider21's Avatar
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    Because they just cut that guy...Bruce Irvin... even though he's older he still was good. That's the type of player Allen is. At least the Seattle version of Irvin anyways.
    irvin had been a full time DE for us. besides right now we have arden key on one side, and he's already a small DE.

  22. #322
    I Don't Even Care Anymore Millennial_Messiah's Avatar
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    irvin had been a full time DE for us. besides right now we have arden key on one side, and he's already a small DE.
    I wouldn't count on Key. He has at ude issues, considers football "just a job", and has been a drug addict in the past. I wouldn't be surprised if he follows the David Irving route out of the NFL at some point.

    Irvin wasn't good enough to hold up against the run at DE, and neither will Allen. I read somewhere in 2016 that teams were twice as effective in terms of YPG at running off left tackle (Irvin's side) than right tackle (Mack's side) that year.

    If the Raiders draft him I think they use him like the Cowboys use Jaylon Smith. Either drop him in coverage or use his athleticism in creative blitzes, including up the gut or on the back side of a stunt. He doesn't have enough moves or power to get enough sacks in man-to-man pressure situations, even on 3rd and long. To get him sacks you'll need to scheme him free.

  23. #323
    Savvy Veteran spurraider21's Avatar
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    crazy that Suh and Gerald McCoy are both free agents tbh

  24. #324
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    crazy that Suh and Gerald McCoy are both free agents tbh
    Cowboys can go get a 1-Tech and a 3-Tech, right now... boom.

  25. #325
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    crazy that Suh and Gerald McCoy are both free agents tbh
    Suh to the Bucs
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