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  1. #301
    Savvy Veteran spurraider21's Avatar
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    If Nick Bosa isn't there I think any trade down is a good idea for the Raiders. There isn't really much difference between the "upper" red chippers and the other red chippers, as true for most drafts. Denzel Ward and Derwin James picks could have easily been swapped tbh, but Ward went 4th and James went 17th. Doesn't make Ward 13 premium picks better than James, but it comes down to a) team-based needs and b) how well a workout with an individual team went.
    barring some absurd offer like the redskins trying to move down to 4... i think the raiders should absolutely stand pat at 4 and select Quinnen Williams (assuming he's available. or obviously bosa who has almost 0% chance of falling past 2). he's a blue chipper.

    if bosa/quinnen are gone with the raiders on the clock, that means murray is the only QB off the board, and teams like the giants/bengals/dolphins/redskins are biting at the chomp to move up and get their QB of choice. you'd have good trade-down opportunities. but if you're not getting great offers, there's no pressure, as Josh Allen is still a really strong pick there. i dont want to see the raiders taking a QB there, nor should they reach for Ed Oliver. i think 4 is too early for him.

    derwin james is not a great example... his fall was completed unexpected. he wasn't supposed to get past 12. ward was easily the top corner prospect in the draft, but nobody expected him to go as high as #4

  2. #302
    Enemy of the System Millennial_Messiah's Avatar
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    barring some absurd offer like the redskins trying to move down to 4... i think the raiders should absolutely stand pat at 4 and select Quinnen Williams (assuming he's available. or obviously bosa who has almost 0% chance of falling past 2). he's a blue chipper.

    if bosa/quinnen are gone with the raiders on the clock, that means murray is the only QB off the board, and teams like the giants/bengals/dolphins/redskins are biting at the chomp to move up and get their QB of choice. you'd have good trade-down opportunities. but if you're not getting great offers, there's no pressure, as Josh Allen is still a really strong pick there. i dont want to see the raiders taking a QB there, nor should they reach for Ed Oliver. i think 4 is too early for him.

    derwin james is not a great example... his fall was completed unexpected. he wasn't supposed to get past 12. ward was easily the top corner prospect in the draft, but nobody expected him to go as high as #4
    But like you said Josh Allen is a red chipper, upper red chipper or not, so that's worst case scenario. #4 overall should be a franchise player and not sure you want to spend that on Anthony Barr or Bruce Irvin. A guy who can do a lot of everything but isn't a monster at anything.

  3. #303
    Savvy Veteran spurraider21's Avatar
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    But like you said Josh Allen is a red chipper, upper red chipper or not, so that's worst case scenario. #4 overall should be a franchise player and not sure you want to spend that on Anthony Barr or Bruce Irvin. A guy who can do a lot of everything but isn't a monster at anything.
    i think he's close. he's a blue chipper in a 3-4 scheme imo, as a natural fit for OLB. i just dont think 4-3 OLBs are ever really considered blue chippers. but his talent is obvious. he'd still be a very good OLB because he has really good coverage skills and is aggressive vs the run, but positional value becomes a concern... and that's why i dont think he's in the bosa/quinnen tier from a raider fan perspective. it would depend on the trade-down package they get. if teams are fighting to move up for a QB, then i dont think it would take too much convincing. but they shouldnt trade down just for the sake of trading down unless the offer is right. they can fall back 5-10 spots and wind up with sweat/gary/burns which would be a good deal imo.

    but if they dont get a good offer and take Josh Allen its still a decent pick. just not the ideal scenario (Quinnen)

  4. #304
    Enemy of the System Millennial_Messiah's Avatar
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    i think he's close. he's a blue chipper in a 3-4 scheme imo, as a natural fit for OLB. i just dont think 4-3 OLBs are ever really considered blue chippers. but his talent is obvious. he'd still be a very good OLB because he has really good coverage skills and is aggressive vs the run, but positional value becomes a concern... and that's why i dont think he's in the bosa/quinnen tier from a raider fan perspective. it would depend on the trade-down package they get. if teams are fighting to move up for a QB, then i dont think it would take too much convincing. but they shouldnt trade down just for the sake of trading down unless the offer is right. they can fall back 5-10 spots and wind up with sweat/gary/burns which would be a good deal imo.

    but if they dont get a good offer and take Josh Allen its still a decent pick. just not the ideal scenario (Quinnen)
    I just hard to think there is such a thing as a blue chip 3-4 OLB who isn't going to be close to a perennial 13-15+ sack-a-year average guy. When you think of the "blue chip" 3-4 OLBs you think of the elite speedy sack demons off the edge... the LTs, Von Millers, DeMarcus Wares, Khalil Macks, Myles Garretts etc. of the world.

    What you have in Allen is a hybrid. He's definitely not "perfect" for a 3-4 OLB mold but he'll likely land there if he gets drafted to a 3-4 team, though he might not rush the passer in base (5 man front, the standard 3-4 base formation) and play either EDGE rusher or coverage ILB in sub/passing downs (4 man fronts). What I think he is is a perfect 4-3 OLB but like you said, that's just not such a premium position even though it can make an impact.

    The only way I see him thriving as a 3-4 OLB is if it's more of a "zone blitz" type unpredictable 3-4 scheme like the one Dom Capers ran in Green Bay all those years. Gives him pass rushing snaps and drops him back at times, dropping other guys on the line at random. Allen could be the next Clay Matthews perhaps in a 3-4. But a full time pass rusher, he is not. He's a tailor made Anthony Barr, Bruce Irvin like 4-3 OLB.

  5. #305
    Savvy Veteran spurraider21's Avatar
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    Allen is a perfect 3-4 OLB

    garrett is exclusively a 4-3 guy. Mack can play either. Von/Ware are best in 3-4.

    allen will still be a good 4-3 backer, but i don’t see him as 4-3 DE. Main reason being i don’t think he holds up in the run game against tackles though he can dominate tight ends. In a 3-4, the DE’s do a lot of dirty work in the run game

    the difference seems minor, and for some players, it can be interchangeable, but not everybody works well in both schemes. its why the Chiefs trade Dee Ford and traded for Frank Clark. they are moving from 3-4 (where Ford was a good OLB) to a 4-3 (where Ford doesnt perfectly fit). i think josh allen could still play in a 4-3 as a linebacker because he's strong in coverage, too.
    Last edited by spurraider21; 04-25-2019 at 12:21 PM.

  6. #306
    Enemy of the System Millennial_Messiah's Avatar
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    Allen is a perfect 3-4 OLB

    garrett is exclusively a 4-3 guy. Mack can play either. Von/Ware are best in 3-4.

    allen will still be a good 4-3 backer, but i don’t see him as 4-3 DE. Main reason being i don’t think he holds up in the run game against tackles though he can dominate tight ends. In a 3-4, the DE’s do a lot of dirty work in the run game

    the difference seems minor, and for some players, it can be interchangeable, but not everybody works well in both schemes. its why the Chiefs trade Dee Ford and traded for Frank Clark. they are moving from 3-4 (where Ford was a good OLB) to a 4-3 (where Ford doesnt perfectly fit). i think josh allen could still play in a 4-3 as a linebacker because he's strong in coverage, too.
    A 3-4 OLB takes on tackles the majority of the time these days. Often but not always on based downs, but definitely on longer/sub package downs. Because even a base 3-4 defense is primarily a 4-2-5 nickel defense where the "OLBs" actually play DE a majority of the time (you usually just take the biggest or least talented guy off the interior of the Dline). So a 3-4 OLB plays on-ball, hand-in-the-dirt DE technique a majority of snaps in today's NFL... which isn't Josh Allen's game, as we've both alluded to.

    Unless you want the guy to be a Jack linebacker... basically a 3-4 OLB (not the primary pass rusher) who can either drop back or blitz on base downs and play off ball ILB on sub package downs when you subs ute in a "pass rush specialist" in his sub package DE spot on pass downs... but that seems like a waste of resources.

  7. #307
    Savvy Veteran spurraider21's Avatar
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    A 3-4 OLB takes on tackles the majority of the time these days. Often but not always on based downs, but definitely on longer/sub package downs. Because even a base 3-4 defense is primarily a 4-2-5 nickel defense where the "OLBs" actually play DE a majority of the time (you usually just take the biggest or least talented guy off the interior of the Dline). So a 3-4 OLB plays on-ball, hand-in-the-dirt DE technique a majority of snaps in today's NFL... which isn't Josh Allen's game, as we've both alluded to.

    Unless you want the guy to be a Jack linebacker... basically a 3-4 OLB (not the primary pass rusher) who can either drop back or blitz on base downs and play off ball ILB on sub package downs when you subs ute in a "pass rush specialist" in his sub package DE spot on pass downs... but that seems like a waste of resources.
    you're right that at some point, the positional distinctions become silly. i think he can beat tackles on pass rushing downs. i just dont see him taking on tackles every down because he wouldnt hold up against the run. so the raiders still have room for him, he'd be an OLB in base and a DE in nickel. raiders beat writers dont seem to think the raiders love josh allen. they want Quinnen or Ed Oliver. of course theres also the QB wildcard but the raiders writers dont really seem to believe the haskins at #4 stuff

  8. #308
    Enemy of the System Millennial_Messiah's Avatar
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    you're right that at some point, the positional distinctions become silly. i think he can beat tackles on pass rushing downs. i just dont see him taking on tackles every down because he wouldnt hold up against the run. so the raiders still have room for him, he'd be an OLB in base and a DE in nickel. raiders beat writers dont seem to think the raiders love josh allen. they want Quinnen or Ed Oliver. of course theres also the QB wildcard but the raiders writers dont really seem to believe the haskins at #4 stuff
    Because they just cut that guy...Bruce Irvin... even though he's older he still was good. That's the type of player Allen is. At least the Seattle version of Irvin anyways.

  9. #309
    Savvy Veteran spurraider21's Avatar
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    Because they just cut that guy...Bruce Irvin... even though he's older he still was good. That's the type of player Allen is. At least the Seattle version of Irvin anyways.
    irvin had been a full time DE for us. besides right now we have arden key on one side, and he's already a small DE.

  10. #310
    Enemy of the System Millennial_Messiah's Avatar
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    irvin had been a full time DE for us. besides right now we have arden key on one side, and he's already a small DE.
    I wouldn't count on Key. He has at ude issues, considers football "just a job", and has been a drug addict in the past. I wouldn't be surprised if he follows the David Irving route out of the NFL at some point.

    Irvin wasn't good enough to hold up against the run at DE, and neither will Allen. I read somewhere in 2016 that teams were twice as effective in terms of YPG at running off left tackle (Irvin's side) than right tackle (Mack's side) that year.

    If the Raiders draft him I think they use him like the Cowboys use Jaylon Smith. Either drop him in coverage or use his athleticism in creative blitzes, including up the gut or on the back side of a stunt. He doesn't have enough moves or power to get enough sacks in man-to-man pressure situations, even on 3rd and long. To get him sacks you'll need to scheme him free.

  11. #311
    Savvy Veteran spurraider21's Avatar
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    crazy that Suh and Gerald McCoy are both free agents tbh

  12. #312
    Enemy of the System Millennial_Messiah's Avatar
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    crazy that Suh and Gerald McCoy are both free agents tbh
    Cowboys can go get a 1-Tech and a 3-Tech, right now... boom.

  13. #313
    We've got a job to do. Darth_Pelican's Avatar
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    crazy that Suh and Gerald McCoy are both free agents tbh
    Suh to the Bucs

  14. #314
    Savvy Veteran spurraider21's Avatar
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    and Gerald McCoy to the Panthers. their front looks loaded right now.

    3-4 with Gerald McCoy and Kawann Short surrounding Dontari Poe.

    pass rushing OLB's will be Mario Addison, Brian Burns, and Bruce Irvin. Shaq Thompson still in the mix.

    they need the passing game to work though, dumpoffs to CMC are nice but Cam needs to get the downfield game working. a lot of pressure on youngsters like DJ Moore and Curtis Samuel to make it work. they still seem ridiculously reliant on CMC, but he's known for his durability

  15. #315
    Savvy Veteran spurraider21's Avatar
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    Trent Williams demanding to be traded or released for Washington and vows to never play for them again... damn

    cleveland would be a natural candidate
    Last edited by spurraider21; 06-05-2019 at 02:13 PM.

  16. #316
    4-25-20 Will Hunting's Avatar
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    Trent Williams demanding to be traded or released for Washington and vows to never play for them again... damn

    cleveland would be a natural candidate
    Washington should be able to get a good return for him, there are so many teams with dog at left tackle right now.

  17. #317
    Enemy of the System Millennial_Messiah's Avatar
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    Washington should be able to get a good return for him, there are so many teams with dog at left tackle right now.
    and who knows if Isaiah Wynn is going to be any good, missing one's full rookie year derails over 70% of careers, including roughly half of first round picks, historically. But Belichick won't bite because he knows he can win with any QB, I guess.

    I read somewhere that Seattle was interested in moving Duane Brown to RT and cutting Ifedi, that one makes sense since your QB has been sacked more than any other QB since 2012 and he's also the highest paid player in the history of football.

  18. #318
    Savvy Veteran spurraider21's Avatar
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    pats dont have the cap room to bring him on tbh

    texans could use him as a stopgap so their small school first round prospect can develop for a year. they have cap space

  19. #319
    Enemy of the System Millennial_Messiah's Avatar
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    pats dont have the cap room to bring him on tbh

    texans could use him as a stopgap so their small school first round prospect can develop for a year. they have cap space
    Texans line is historically awful and has been for some time, but they don't like to invest there... they like defense (mainly front 7) and skill players on offense

  20. #320
    Enemy of the System Millennial_Messiah's Avatar
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    and Gerald McCoy to the Panthers. their front looks loaded right now.

    3-4 with Gerald McCoy and Kawann Short surrounding Dontari Poe.

    pass rushing OLB's will be Mario Addison, Brian Burns, and Bruce Irvin. Shaq Thompson still in the mix.

    they need the passing game to work though, dumpoffs to CMC are nice but Cam needs to get the downfield game working. a lot of pressure on youngsters like DJ Moore and Curtis Samuel to make it work. they still seem ridiculously reliant on CMC, but he's known for his durability
    Shaq Thompson likely lines up next to Kueckly at ILB full time. Addison/Burns are the primary weakside edge rushers and Irvin is the starting Jack linebacker, who can both rush or drop into coverage roughly equally well. They need a backup for him, though. Love the interior 3.

  21. #321
    Enemy of the System Millennial_Messiah's Avatar
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    https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/...jewelry-vanish

    "The police report obtained by The Associated Press refers to the two women as Bell's girlfriends."


    Open polygamy in the USA

  22. #322
    4-25-20 Will Hunting's Avatar
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    and who knows if Isaiah Wynn is going to be any good, missing one's full rookie year derails over 70% of careers, including roughly half of first round picks, historically. But Belichick won't bite because he knows he can win with any QB, I guess.

    I read somewhere that Seattle was interested in moving Duane Brown to RT and cutting Ifedi, that one makes sense since your QB has been sacked more than any other QB since 2012 and he's also the highest paid player in the history of football.
    Yeah, a year ago you said that losing Nate Solder and replacing him with Trent Brown was going to be the Patriots' downfall and look how that turned out, so thanks again for your dramatic diagnosis this year.

    Belichick won't bite because he doesn't have the cap space and also isn't concerned with the line. He has maybe the best offensive line coach in NFL history to get Wynn up to speed, and returns 4 of 5 starters from a great unit a year ago, he isn't going to break the bank on a veteran left tackle.

  23. #323
    Enemy of the System Millennial_Messiah's Avatar
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    Yeah, a year ago you said that losing Nate Solder and replacing him with Trent Brown was going to be the Patriots' downfall and look how that turned out, so thanks again for your dramatic diagnosis this year.

    Belichick won't bite because he doesn't have the cap space and also isn't concerned with the line. He has maybe the best offensive line coach in NFL history to get Wynn up to speed, and returns 4 of 5 starters from a great unit a year ago, he isn't going to break the bank on a veteran left tackle.
    You're right that Trent Brown's deficiencies, especially against speed in pass protection, were negated by the great interior and coaching. Wynn will be a liability his first year but I don't know if it'll be a big time issue because DS and Thuney are excellent. Thuney is one of the best pass protecting guards, Andrews great at pass pro, above average run blocking and hasn't had a bad snap (think Unger, Andre Gurode), Mason is an absolute destroyer in the run game and Cannon is a well techniqued protector when he's healthy and also a positive in the run game. That line should be okay, still top 10.

  24. #324
    Believe.
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    How can the Eagles justify paying Wentz that kind of $$$$$$$$, the guy has done nothing. My prediction....he will be hurt before Turkeyday.

    Time to move on from that Tyreek Hill situation, if they can't figure it out by now, it. YES, if he did hurt a kid, shoot him.

    My Niners getting a lot of love, now let's see if Jimmy G is the real deal.

    Will Eli end the season as the STILL the starter?

    Would love to see the Raiders back in the mix, the game is better...but....have my doubts.

    Hearing nothing but good things about mini Kyler Murray. But, still see another RGIII only smaller. No Murray isn't faster than what RGIII was. He was a legit track star.

    This should be the year the Colts take over that division. Luck by far the best QB there.

    I do expect Lamar Jackson to start heading towards......well he can run.....but, bust.

    As of right now.....

    Top QB's

    1.Aaron Rodgers
    2.Tom Brady
    3.Drew Brees
    4.Russell Wilson
    5.Big Ben
    6.Patrick Mahomes
    7.Philip Rivers
    8.Andrew Luck
    9.Matt Ryan
    10.Carson Wentz

  25. #325
    Savvy Veteran spurraider21's Avatar
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    asks how they can pay a guy so much money?

    then proceeds to have him as a top 10 QB in the league at age 26

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