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Unskilled?yesterday's nba
Today’s NBA
Only skill they have is shooting wide open 3s
Celebrating like monkeys after hitting a wide open 3
Low basketball IQ
Unskilled?
Today’s NBA
Only skill they have is shooting wide open 3s
Celebrating like monkeys after hitting a wide open 3
Low basketball IQ
Besides, Karl Malone did plenty of rip throughs back in the day, it didn’t work vs. the Bulls and the Jazz put up games of 59 points in the finals as a result. Rip throughs isn’t a new phenomenon at all, just that they weren’t called much inyesterday’s NBA and players don’t use them because it is an unreliable way of getting points.
For all intents and purposes, handchecking was “banned” in theory only. Players like Jaren Jackson and Mario Elie made a living out of handchecking, but since the early 2000s, the league tried to tighten hand checking and as a result a number of defensive perimeter players no longer has much of a role in the NBA. Jaren Jackson essentially became unplayable.
So you are saying that it took 80 years for players to realize they can get FTs by initiating contact, and they were just too stupid to realize it back then? Okay.
And how many les did Nelly win? Oh, right, the players simply went through some genetic mutation in the last 10 years to suddenly be these amazing marksmen to allow them to win games on shooting threes, as if Rudy T didn’t already figure it out with Hakeem in the middle and three point shooters around him.
Yeah, because hand-checking wouldn’t allow a defender to play the offensive player tighter, thus allowing quicker shot challenges.
I can’t respond so I will just put out a passive aggressive quote like a little kid
And yet Miller and Allen never won a championship as the lead with their three point shooting, while Dirk actually won one after he dialed back his three point shooting, making an astounding 0.9 3s the year he won the le, and a game changing 1.1 in the playoffs that year. I wonder why he didn’t shoot more threes to win a le earlier, oh wait, he did, but that didn’t win him anything.
And Iverson, Kobe, Carter, TMac, Pierce all had a DRAMATIC increase in scoring output in the 00-01 season, when the league made a concerted effort to clamp down on hand-checking, but it had nothing to do with rule changes, it just happened miraculously to pretty much all perimeter players that year. They just decided to score more points because they all got less stupid over the summer.
Players and coaching “evolved” to styles more beneficial to them based on the rule changes. The beautiful game has been around since the 50s, and Adelman was doing it with the Kings back in the day. It didn’t result in any les because the rules still favoured big men dominating in the middle.
Price, Stockton, Barros, Adams, can all shoot and drive. The difference is players were allowed to clobber them in the lane back then. Was it the right thing to do? Probably not as the game shouldn’t be based on thuggery, but that was the truth. Players don’t get to have a free lane in the basket then because once you get past your man, you will get your teeth knocked out in the lane, so perimeter players were able to defend closer. Billy Owens, Walt Williams, and Steve Smith were all supposed to be these big perimeter players who can handle the ball and shoot from outside, but none of them got anywhere.
There’s something called enforcement. I am not sure if I should call you naïve or not.
Yeah, because players making millions couldn’t figure out they should initiate contact to get calls as they were just too stupid. Makes perfect sense.
When the Pistons made the defensive rules that set the 90s in gear.
But LeBron got PEDs so it evens out.
Handchecking isn't the problem. Players like Frauden, CP0 and Trae who get rewarded for flopping on every possession are the problem. And on the flipside, the league further incentivizes playing refball in the regular season by not giving legitimate foul calls to guys like Kawhi and LeBron who play real basketball.
My proof is that refs have been calling it for years. You claim players used to do it and it wasn't called. So I don't have anything to give proof of.
So the Jazz only put up 59 points solely because Karl Malone suddenly decides to try using it in the Finals?Besides, Karl Malone did plenty of rip throughs back in the day, it didn’t work vs. the Bulls and the Jazz put up games of 59 points in the finals as a result. Rip throughs isn’t a new phenomenon at all, just that they weren’t called much in
It is still "banned" in theory only, because players still handcheck a lot. And if the only way you have a role in the NBA is by handchecking, then that should make it pretty obvious that you suck as a basketball player. The fact that you can't see that shows what an idiot you actually are
To an extent, sure. Players have always understood the need to initiate contact to get FTs, but as time progresses, players and coaches continue to figure out new ways to initiate contact that results in legal fouls, due to loopholes/flaws in the rules.
No one said Nelly's particular style won championships. Just that he understood the value of the three-point shot. And yes, Rudy T made use of it, as well as Pop.
With more teams realizing a greater need for three-point shooters, it became a more valuable talent. Therefore, yes, in the past 10-20 years, more youth coaches have been focused on developing young players into proficient deep shooters. It's not a genetic mutation, it's the simple fact that playing styles evolved.
Well if a player is 30 feet out from the basket, and hand-checking by rule didn't allow for a defender to put their hands on a player in a way that causes any change in the offensive players momentum, then no it really wouldn't make a difference because at that point, Steph or Harden is simply going to blow past their defender going to the rim, at which point they either have a layup, or the help defense has to choose whether to help in the paint, or stick to the shooting threat they are likely guarding. And when you are camped in the paint with no momentum, while a guy is running full speed in your direction, chances are, you are going to foul them.
The deep shooting range puts defenses at the offensive players mercy. There is nothing that can be done except try to be physical and hope for the best. Watch guys like Pat Bev, Klay, Paul George or Kawhi defend. They are physical elite defenders who hand check all day long with no foul calls, yet generally can't do much on their own to stop guys like Steph, KD or Harden, except hope they miss.
No, I just didn't see the purpose in you stating that. It didn't really accomplish much.
Again, no one said anything about winning championships. Just that they showed how effective their styles can be, and that they can have a huge effect on the game by adding to the spacing of teams, helping make the game easier for both themselves and teammates. While Dirk may not have had to shoot a lot of threes in his le run, his range was a huge part of opening the offense up by pulling big men out of the paint to guard him out at the 3 point line. And not just Dirk, but there were three-point shooters all over the place with Kidd, Terry, Stevenson, Peja, Barea, which helped guys like Chandler and Marion get all kinds of easy open dunks.
The Kings lost to one anomaly of a big man in Shaq. Let's not act like players remotely like Shaq were just all over the place. Duncan, Hakeem, Malone, Robinson, none of them were ANYTHING like Shaq. In fact, much of what made them all special was the fact that they had some sort of guard-like skills in their arsenal, whether it was an 18-20 foot jumper, or fantastic dribble drive ability.
And let's not forget that the Pistons and Bulls were guard-dominant teams, and they won 8 championships. Neither of them were dominating teams with a big man down low on offense.
Massive exaggeration, lets not act like every single time a guard got into the lane they were clobbered with their teeth being knocked out. And playing styles back then made it much harder to get into the lane, because teams simply didn't give the three point line much defensive attention. Point guards generally would dribble up to the line, and their defender would usually be playing a good 4-5 feet off, often times even more. And it was smart on defenses, because no one was looking to shoot pull-up threes if they have the space, nor were most players proficient at it, because it wasn't something they were taught to do.
Today, defenders have to pick up a lot of players from 27-30 feet otherwise they are a threat to pull up from that deep. It never really became something you had to account for heavily until the past 10 years or so. Even when you had guys like Reggie doing it, most teams just lived with the law of averages, that it probably wouldn't be a shot players would consistently take and make, so why bother accounting for it? That just doesn't work with today's offensive players.
Again, different offensive styles have forced defenses to have to play different styles themselves. Defenders simply can't camp in the paint like they used to.
Oh okay, well if that's the case then it completely throws your whole "hand checking" argument right out of the window, because despite it being a "rule", it's pretty obvious it's not fully enforced today when plenty of defenders are still putting their hands all over offensive players with no foul calls.
Yep, it makes about as much sense as calling today's NBA "soft" because they figured out how to initiate calls to get easier points. Or that they are "soft" because they realized that if no one defends you at the three point line, to go ahead and take that shot, especially when you can hit it at a 40%+ rate. Or that they are "soft" because now the rules (that were NOT MADE BY PLAYERS) are if you blatantly flagrant foul a person out of embarrassment, you get fined and suspended without pay for multiple games, as opposed to MAYBE being ejected for that night.
Or not calling yesterday's NBA "soft" because they were the ones who figured out how to initiate calls on defense by flopping to get more stops. Or not calling them "soft" because they are the generation that started excessive whining to the refs in order to wear them down mentally to get more calls to go your way later in the games.
But in your mind, all of that seems to make perfect sense.
At this point, I've said what I have to say, and gave plenty of my points of reasoning. I've also admitted that rule changes had a hand in some of the adjustments. I just disagree strongly with your notion that it's the sole reason (or even the biggest reason) for different playing styles. There are many other factors that you just don't seem to want to acknowledge.
Nothing you can say will change my mind, and obviously nothing I'm saying will change your mind. I'm not replying to this subject any further.
Ambchang doing work
Wether toy prefer yesterday's or today's NBA, we can all agree on one thing :
Today's NBA lacks rivalries
That is not a proof, that’s a statement. It’s like me saying my counterproof is that the refs haven’t been calling it for years.
No, Karl Malone did it, and it then in the finals, it wasn’t called and they got embarrassed. It is not a consistent way of getting points, so players didn’t have it as a go-to move.So the Jazz only put up 59 points solely because Karl Malone suddenly decides to try using it in the Finals?
If you are trying to argue that it is still let go sometimes, sure. This isn’t a case where ALL handchecks were called or ALL handchecks wasn’t called, but the frequency of calls have increased, leading to more and more difficulty in playing perimeter defense. Perimeter defense is no longer effective because offensive players have a huge advantage every time. This is not a secret.It is still "banned" in theory only, because players still handcheck a lot. And if the only way you have a role in the NBA is by handchecking, then that should make it pretty obvious that you suck as a basketball player. The fact that you can't see that shows what an idiot you actually are
People do rip throughs in local Ys for decades, sometimes it’s called, sometimes it’s not It’s not a “new way to initiate contact”. This is about the stupidest thing you’ve said.
And yet 3 point % was .331 in 1990, .320 in 2000, .355 in 2010, and .355 so far this season. The number that did actually increased dramatically was attempts.
And that wasn’t true 20 years ago?
You act like people couldn’t shoot in the 80s or 90s. The fact is they could, they just didn’t shoot as many of them.
Shooting, with everything else equal, did not improve over the years.
And Larry Bird was nailing threes in the 80s, so did Laimbeer. In fact, Laimbeer had the highest WS on the Pistons back in the day because his presence led to an open lane and opened up the Pistons offense, but they complimented that with elite perimeter play because Thomas can still blow past defenders with handchecking. Without that elite penetration, Laimbeer’s presence would not be of as great a use as handchecking on the other perimeter players would have offset it.
[QUOTE=Neo.;10016476]
All at the same year, with that dramatic jump? Show me when Jordan had his scoring jump, or Lebron. Iverson was already an extremely high usage player before than season, and then all of a sudden, huge jump. Ditto for Pierce.
So the point still stand that those same types of skills have been around for many years.
Laimbeer did make a difference as mentioned before. I am not exactly sure where you are going with this. Did I say guards couldn’t dominate in the past?
I can agree with the not-being-taught part. 80s was horrible in 3 pt defense because it was a novelty, but by the 90s, teams have figured it out, especially have Rudy T’s rockets.
True, and Miller never led the Pacers to the promised land, and only made the Finals once in that god awful conference.
I can agree to that.
No, I meant it’s enforced more today, but not in the past.
Not sure what your rant is about. My stance is that the rules are changed in a way that it favours offensive players immensely, but the narrative is that the players are just somehow, suddenly immensely more skillful that they can simply do things players as recently as 10 years couldn’t do. Perimeter players all get the Jordan treatment now, and it’s disgusting to watch.Yep, it makes about as much sense as calling today's NBA "soft" because they figured out how to initiate calls to get easier points. Or that they are "soft" because they realized that if no one defends you at the three point line, to go ahead and take that shot, especially when you can hit it at a 40%+ rate. Or that they are "soft" because now the rules (that were NOT MADE BY PLAYERS) are if you blatantly flagrant foul a person out of embarrassment, you get fined and suspended without pay for multiple games, as opposed to MAYBE being ejected for that night.
Or not calling yesterday's NBA "soft" because they were the ones who figured out how to initiate calls on defense by flopping to get more stops. Or not calling them "soft" because they are the generation that started excessive whining to the refs in order to wear them down mentally to get more calls to go your way later in the games.
But in your mind, all of that seems to make perfect sense.
I guess we will have to agree to disagree. My stance is that this all started with rule changes, and over the course of the last 10-15 years, teams found this loop hole and exploited it. Players are now being rewarded for things that were not rewarded, or even penalized in the past. To say that players didn’t know they can just throw themselves into themselves to draw a foul for 80 years, and then just one day, someone did and exploited it was asinine. To not acknowledge the difference handchecking had on perimeter defense is just beyond me. Players have to play 5 feet away even though they know full well they are guarding deadly three point shooters is solely because of this.
Didn't phrase it properly, they didn't get Thomas for Laimbeer, but with Laimbeer it worked because the Pistons can penetrate.
Can't believe this annoying got might be running the league in a few years
Dang, make Trae Dallas and Luka's GM in the offseason because that whining worked out perfectly
TL; DNR tbh
Besides, Karl Malone did plenty of rip throughs back in the day, it didn’t work vs. the Bulls and the Jazz put up games of 59 points in the finals as a result. Rip throughs isn’t a new phenomenon at all, just that they weren’t called much in
For all intents and purposes, handchecking was “banned” in theory only. Players like Jaren Jackson and Mario Elie made a living out of handchecking, but since the early 2000s, the league tried to tighten hand checking and as a result a number of defensive perimeter players no longer has much of a role in the NBA. Jaren Jackson essentially became unplayable.
So you are saying that it took 80 years for players to realize they can get FTs by initiating contact, and they were just too stupid to realize it back then? Okay.
And how many les did Nelly win? Oh, right, the players simply went through some genetic mutation in the last 10 years to suddenly be these amazing marksmen to allow them to win games on shooting threes, as if Rudy T didn’t already figure it out with Hakeem in the middle and three point shooters around him.
Yeah, because hand-checking wouldn’t allow a defender to play the offensive player tighter, thus allowing quicker shot challenges.
And yet Miller and Allen never won a championship as the lead with their three point shooting, while Dirk actually won one after he dialed back his three point shooting, making an astounding 0.9 3s the year he won the le, and a game changing 1.1 in the playoffs that year. I wonder why he didn’t shoot more threes to win a le earlier, oh wait, he did, but that didn’t win him anything.
And Iverson, Kobe, Carter, TMac, Pierce all had a DRAMATIC increase in scoring output in the 00-01 season, when the league made a concerted effort to clamp down on hand-checking, but it had nothing to do with rule changes, it just happened miraculously to pretty much all perimeter players that year. They just decided to score more points because they all got less stupid over the summer.
Players and coaching “evolved” to styles more beneficial to them based on the rule changes. The beautiful game has been around since the 50s, and Adelman was doing it with the Kings back in the day. It didn’t result in any les because the rules still favoured big men dominating in the middle.
Price, Stockton, Barros, Adams, can all shoot and drive. The difference is players were allowed to clobber them in the lane back then. Was it the right thing to do? Probably not as the game shouldn’t be based on thuggery, but that was the truth. Players don’t get to have a free lane in the basket then because once you get past your man, you will get your teeth knocked out in the lane, so perimeter players were able to defend closer. Billy Owens, Walt Williams, and Steve Smith were all supposed to be these big perimeter players who can handle the ball and shoot from outside, but none of them got anywhere.
There’s something called enforcement. I am not sure if I should call you naïve or not.
Yeah, because players making millions couldn’t figure out they should initiate contact to get calls as they were just too stupid. Makes perfect sense.
When the Pistons made the defensive rules that set the 90s in gear.
+ applying decals without getting bubbles in the application.Unskilled?
Today’s NBA
Only skill they have is shooting wide open 3s
Celebrating like monkeys after hitting a wide open 3
Low basketball IQ
It was clear this atlanta team needed a new coach. The team is ing great. I wouldnt be surpried one bit if they eliminate the process.
true true
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