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  1. #76
    R.C. Drunkford TimDunkem's Avatar
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    Biden is shooting yourself in the foot. Put him up for nomination and this already fragile Democratic coalition crumbles. Young people don't want him, progressives don't want him, and more and more women are jumping ship everyday.

    It's going to be Hillary all over again if the Dems put this loser up.
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  2. #77
    WICKED PISSAH!!!! Will Hunting's Avatar
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    Because historically the closest things to revolutionary change we've had in this country wouldn't have happened without establishment politicians.
    Which specific events are you referring to?
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  3. #78
    Believe. Pavlov's Avatar
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    Which specific events are you referring to?
    Civil rights legislation comes to mind first. LBJ was as establishment as it gets and pretty corrupt personally, but the results speak for themselves.

    I just don't see the Bernie revolution's ever playing out by voting for Trump again.
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  4. #79
    Still Hates Small Ball Spurminator's Avatar
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    Same reason Hillary losing to Trump loosened the establishment’s grip on the party. Trump beating Biden contradicts the entire establishment thesis that candidates like Sanders and Warren are “unelectable” and thus voters should support center-right corporatists like Hillary and Biden because they can win “the center” which is supposedly the key to winning elections (even though after 2016 Republicans managed to control the White House, both houses of Congress, and SCOTUS, not to mention how much more control they have at the local level in most states, all by having far right demagogue at the top of the ticket who couldn’t have given a fuck about winning the center).
    Biden winning the nomination would seem to be a move even further to the center than Hillary was, at least in the public's eye, so it would be hard for me to agree that Hillary's loss loosened the establishment's grip if Biden was the very next nominee. I don't think a Biden loss does it either. He's obviously going to be painted as a far-left socialist radical by conservatives anyway.

    When neither the establishment Dems nor the non-establishment Dems have any power to drive policy, the general public won't have any clue how to differentiate between them, and a second term of Donald Fucking Trump certainly won't help with that. So you have two wings of the party with no power and no way to prove their policies work - who wins in 2024? The side with more money, probably.

    The next best thing to a non-establishment Dem President is an establishment Dem President who won't kneejerk oppose everything put forth by the Warrens and Sanders of the party and we can at least have a dialogue. More importantly, this country needs a commander in chief who understands his/her duties in the office, such as reading intelligence reports and not treating truth as an inconvenience. Opting for four more years of Trump as some kind of strategic chess move to sway the Democratic Party further to the left in four years (which has no guarantee of happening) makes no sense to me.

  5. #80
    WICKED PISSAH!!!! Will Hunting's Avatar
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    Civil rights legislation comes to mind first. LBJ was as establishment as it gets and pretty corrupt personally, but the results speak for themselves.

    I just don't see the Bernie revolution's ever playing out by voting for Trump again.
    There’s nothing about being an establishment president that made LBJ uniquely qualified to pass civil rights legislation and I’m also not sure what you mean by saying the results speak for themselves. Black Americans are still significantly poorer than white Americans and they still deal with more subtle forms of discrimination such as voter suppression and mass incarceration. The overall prosperity of black America has largely regressed since the 1980s and neither party really gives a shit about addressing it. If the “progress” caused by the civil rights act is the best establishment candidates can do in terms of meaningful reform then it’s all the more reason to vote against them imo.

    It’s also not like I’m saying that voting for Trump will lead to a Bernie revolution. I’m saying that if Trump beats another centrist like Biden or Kamala Harris then the faction of Democratic voters who give up on the “win the center” strategy goes up and becomes harder to ignore.

    I also wouldn’t consider Trump over Biden if I thought it would lead to anything awful but as far as I can tell the only difference between Trump and Hillary that will be hard to fix is Supreme Court justices, everything else that Trump is done can be reversed and there isn’t anything Hillary was proposing that made me overly excited. The senate map in 2022 is also favorable for the Dems but the other issue with having centrist Dems in office is it routinely leads to midterm elections being bloodbaths due to shitty voter turnout.

  6. #81
    WICKED PISSAH!!!! Will Hunting's Avatar
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    Biden winning the nomination would seem to be a move even further to the center than Hillary was, at least in the public's eye so it would be hard for me to agree that Hillary's loss loosened the establishment's grip if Biden was the very next nominee.
    I guess I shouldn't have limited it to control. If the establishment maintained control but had to move its platform significantly to the left, that'd be an acceptable result in my book and that's already happened to a limited extent. Universal healthcare was considered an extreme view 10 years ago vs. now when all of the candidates are fighting with each other over who's most in favor of it.

    Maybe I haven't made it clear but if it's a candidate like Kamala Harris who is definitely backed by the establishment but has a platform with progressives in mind, I'd vote for her over Trump. Biden seems completely out of touch with progressives and millennials which is why I'm refusing to support him.

    I don't think a Biden loss does it either. He's obviously going to be painted as a far-left socialist radical by conservatives anyway.
    Agreed, which is why bending over backwards to appease the center so Fox News can't call you a socialist is effectively pissing into the wind. There's no reasoning with the 30-35% of the country that thinks climate change is a myth and still believes in trickle down economics so how they paint the candidate shouldn't really matter.

    When neither the establishment Dems nor the non-establishment Dems have any power to drive policy, the general public won't have any clue how to differentiate between them, and a second term of Donald Fucking Trump certainly won't help with that. So you have two wings of the party with no power and no way to prove their policies work - who wins in 2024? The side with more money, probably.
    I agree it won't help that in the short term, but I don't see the scenario you're describing meaningfully different than the way things already are. The Democrats weren't able to drive significant reform in 2009 when they had a huge house majority and 59 senators, and Trump wasn't able to drive significant reform in 2017 when he had all 3 branches of government.

    The next best thing to a non-establishment Dem President is an establishment Dem President who won't kneejerk oppose everything put forth by the Warrens and Sanders of the party and we can at least have a dialogue.
    So not Joe Biden then. As you already alluded to, he's even more anti-progressive than Hillary. He's been nothing short of dismissive on stuff like universal healthcare.

    More importantly, this country needs a commander in chief who understands his/her duties in the office, such as reading intelligence reports and not treating truth as an inconvenience.
    Joe Biden doesn't strike me as an Obama/Bill Clinton type who reads intelligence reports and makes informed decisions. He's dumb as a bag of hammers and has basically been the court jester of the Democratic Party for decades who people like because he says goofy stuff.

    Opting for four more years of Trump as some kind of strategic chess move to sway the Democratic Party further to the left in four years (which has no guarantee of happening) makes no sense to me.
    The logic there is that this country has never given a progressive president the means to accomplish his agenda unless it's on the heels of a complete right wing clusterfuck (i.e., even though the New Deal was largely putting common sense programs in place that were long overdue, it only happened after 12 years of Republican presidents who championed deregulation ran the country into the ground).

  7. #82
    Believe. Pavlov's Avatar
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    There’s nothing about being an establishment president that made LBJ uniquely qualified to pass civil rights legislation and I’m also not sure what you mean by saying the results speak for themselves. Black Americans are still significantly poorer than white Americans and they still deal with more subtle forms of discrimination such as voter suppression and mass incarceration. The overall prosperity of black America has largely regressed since the 1980s and neither party really gives a shit about addressing it. If the “progress” caused by the civil rights act is the best establishment candidates can do in terms of meaningful reform then it’s all the more reason to vote against them imo.
    So blacks should have voted for Goldwater since LBJ didn't make their lives perfect.

  8. #83
    4X ST MVP Spurtacular's Avatar
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    Joe Biden doesn't strike me as an Obama/Bill Clinton type who reads intelligence reports and makes informed decisions. He's dumb as a bag of hammers and has basically been the court jester of the Democratic Party for decades who people like because he says goofy stuff.
    That tends to be my impression; but he came prepared to the 2012 VP debate. It was one of the few debates that a Democrat actually won and the media didn't have to merely pretend the Dem won. Not sure how much of that is Joe being good or Paul Ryan outing himself as a lightweight, though.

  9. #84
    WICKED PISSAH!!!! Will Hunting's Avatar
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    That tends to be my impression; but he came prepared to the 2012 VP debate. It was one of the few debates that a Democrat actually won and the media didn't have to merely pretend the Dem won. Not sure how much of that is Joe being good or Paul Ryan outing himself as a lightweight, though.
    He's good in debates because he's got a likeable personality and always throws out a few sharp one liners (i.e. the one liner that ended Giuliani's campaign in 2008). That being said, a condom filled with dogshit could have beat Ryan in a debate that year, I'll never understand why Romney picked him as his VP. Rand Paul was the obvious choice imo, it would have appeased the Ron Paul supporters who were fuming after the primary and Rand Paul would have been in a much better position to go after Benghazi as an example of American interventionism backfiring.

  10. #85
    #freeshit 2020 Chris's Avatar
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    The devil trembles when he knows the body is the temple and God is in you
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  11. #86
    Believe. Pavlov's Avatar
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    Chris shitting on first responders now.

  12. #87
    4X ST MVP Spurtacular's Avatar
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    He's good in debates because he's got a likeable personality and always throws out a few sharp one liners (i.e. the one liner that ended Giuliani's campaign in 2008). That being said, a condom filled with dogshit could have beat Ryan in a debate that year, I'll never understand why Romney picked him as his VP. Rand Paul was the obvious choice imo, it would have appeased the Ron Paul supporters who were fuming after the primary and Rand Paul would have been in a much better position to go after Benghazi as an example of American interventionism backfiring.
    It was more than that. Biden had only one debate and he wanted be prepared for it. He caught Ryan with his pants down multiple times.

    Mitt chose Ryan cos he was a good ole boy that he liked hanging out with on the campaign trail. If he was smarter about winning he would've picked Condi Rice as VP candidate and picked off all Obama's "history maker" voters.

  13. #88
    Savvy Veteran spurraider21's Avatar
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    Ah ok.

    To be fair, I hear it from the left just as much. Bill Maher went from being someone who begged Warren to run against Hillary in 2016 to more or less crying about Bernie supporters being unreasonable on his show every week because the Dems need to focus on “winning the center”.

    God knows MSNBC crams it down its viewers’ throat too, Joe Scarborough’s shtick these days is having Claire McCaskill on his show so she can provide viewers with her “expertise” on how she won the center in Missouri by not being a “crazy Democrat” when the actual reality is that she only won in 2006 because of a historically unpopular Republican President and again in 2012 only because her opponent made one of the most retarded comments about a rape/pregnancy in the history of abortion debates.
    i think maher was referring to purists who decided to stay home and not vote instead of going out and voting against trump anyway

    doesnt mean they shouldnt donate and primary for him. just means when it comes down to democrat you have reservations about vs donald trump, throwing a tantrum isn't helping anybody
    Last edited by spurraider21; 04-29-2019 at 08:12 PM.

  14. #89
    my unders, my frgn whites pgardn's Avatar
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    People act like the Trump victory was a given in hindsight.
    It was not.

    Put out a cadaver and its gonna get close to beating the most significant megalomaniac in presidential history.
    Trump is extraordinarily vulnerable because, he is Trump. A lying, impulsive freak. Selfish, undisciplined, without a conscience, lacking any credibility.
    Who would actually ever do business with a guy like this besides,
    guys like him.
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  15. #90
    Believe. Pavlov's Avatar
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    For a Republican incumbent with this economy, his current poll numbers suck ass.

  16. #91
    ( •_•)>⌐■-■ (⌐■_■) AaronY's Avatar
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    Should have put in blue for sarcasm since all I hear from the right is any Democrat milquetoast not on the left would easily beat him. Just like the last Democrat milquetoast centrist did.
    Biden is a more charismatic speaker and more engaging than Clinton. People ignore how bad and uninspiring she was. Politicians have proven over and over again speaking ability and charisma matters more than policy even
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  17. #92
    ( •_•)>⌐■-■ (⌐■_■) AaronY's Avatar
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    For a Republican incumbent with this economy, his current poll numbers suck ass.
    The polls are fake news. the ones when he was dominating the Republican primaries and which he referred to 10x a rally speech are real though. should be some more real ones coming out when he goes up against bill held and then also jeff flake or whoever in the 2020 R primaries and leads 99 to 1

  18. #93
    #freeshit 2020 Chris's Avatar
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  19. #94
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    Trump, not being a standard politician, just might do something really stupid and bring worth publicly all the crimes of the Obama Administration. Even though I think many need to be in prison, being to the public what Obama and his cohorts did and tried to do would bring down our form of government and our country.

    Hopefully, Trump/Barr can find a quiet way to fix the problem.

  20. #95
    Believe. Pavlov's Avatar
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    Trump, not being a standard politician, just might do something really stupid and bring worth publicly all the crimes of the Obama Administration. Even though I think many need to be in prison, being to the public what Obama and his cohorts did and tried to do would bring down our form of government and our country.

    Hopefully, Trump/Barr can find a quiet way to fix the problem.
    What crimes are you talking about?

    Make a list.

  21. #96
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    Well, I guess I can start with the use of the federal government, the DOJ, the FBI, the CIA, the DNI, the NSA, the Office of National Security, and others to spy on the other political party, especially Trump.

  22. #97
    Believe. Pavlov's Avatar
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    Well, I guess I can start with the use of the federal government, the DOJ, the FBI, the CIA, the DNI, the NSA, the Office of National Security, and others to spy on the other political party, especially Trump.
    You'll have to be specific about each charge you are claiming.

    That's at least seven separate claims.

  23. #98
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    For a Republican incumbent with this economy, his current poll numbers suck ass.

    Only 12% say they benefited from the Repug tax cut scam

  24. #99
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    52% solidly disapprove

  25. #100
    #freeshit 2020 Chris's Avatar
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    @:47 seconds for Biden clip



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