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  1. #26
    Veteran Killakobe81's Avatar
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    It’s sad people can’t see the forest from the trees.

    Harden is a generational player, despite his obvious flaws.

    I hate his game but he gets results. You put Him in place of Durant and he gets those b2b.
    You win?
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  2. #27
    Drive for Five! ambchang's Avatar
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    Not looking to win or not. But more interested in getting counter arguments.
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  3. #28
    Veteran R. DeMurre's Avatar
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    The problem with offense obsessed guys like Harden is that when the playoffs come and Good/Great teams prepare for him, his offensive #s and efficiency go down, and his disinterest in defense becomes more of an issue. In his MVP season playoff loss to the Warriors, he shot 41.5 FG% and 24.4 3pt%. Can you think of a single significant game where Harden's D was a major factor in a Rockets win? I can't.

  4. #29
    Drive for Five! ambchang's Avatar
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    Heavily relying on WS and BPM and VORP and then further parsing through and nitpicking the conveniently random top five seasons in each advanced stat was a nice touch. Just as an aside, I suggest you do the same advanced stat comparison between Tim Duncan and Kevin Garnett to finally decide who was the better player between those two. Your findings should also really clear things up for Spurs fan convincingly... and objectively, of course.

    Oops.
    The top five seasons wasn't meant to nitpick, but more to save me from going through all the seasons.

    For Garnett vs. Duncan, much of the change in numbers came from load management and quality of teammates. it wasn't an issue when comparing Harden with the other SG, save for Kobe who had generational talent next to him (and that works to his advantage, as team success improves WS).

    Just for sake of comparison though:
    Garnett:
    WS: 18.3, 16.1, 15.6, 14.9, 12.9 (led league twice)
    BPM: 9.9, 9.7, 8.7, 7.9, 7.4 (led league twice)
    VORP: 9.8, 9.3, 9.0, 7.4, 5.5 (led league three times)

    Duncan:
    WS: 17.8,16.5, 13.2, 13.1, 13.0 (led league twice). It seems Garnett is better, especially from 3 to 5, but the reality is because of time management on Duncan. When you look at the WS/48 numbers.
    Garnett: .272, 265, .248, .242, .225
    Duncan: .257,.249,.248,.245,.230

    The numbers are much closer.

    BPM: 7.6,7.4, 7.3, 7.1, 6.4. (led league once) Duncan has much better teammates through most of his career. When Duncan goes out, he has Robinson to back up. The fact that Duncan is so close to Garnett in WS speaks to it. The comparison of SG doesn't have this issue. Garnett's best statistical season, his backup was Olowokdani, and Garnett played 39.4 MPG. Duncan's, it was Robinson. So the issue is that Garnett, in his best season, is better than Olowokandi more than Duncan is better than Robinson. Again, there are no significant differences in the SG comparisons.

    VORP: 8.1, 7.6, 6.3, 6.0, 5.9 (Same rationale as BPM).

  5. #30
    I'll tumble for ya Chris Fall's Avatar
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    It’s great that you like to add “yeah but” caveats for Duncan v Garnett, while not doing it previously for the Harden comparisons. That’s cool. Let’s go ahead and test your load management “caveat” and “better teammates” arguments as well.

    Those top five seasons for each player:

    KG 2004, 2005, 2003, 2006, 2008
    TD 2002, 2003, 2004, 2007, 2000

    Minutes played in those seasons:

    KG 39.4, 38.1, 40.5, 38.9, 32.8
    TD 40.6, 39.3, 36.6, 34.1, 38.9

    Games played in those seasons:

    KG 82, 82, 82, 76, 71
    TD 82, 81, 69, 80, 74

    In five seasons, 410 possible games, Duncan missed a total of 7 more games than KG in that time span. Less than 2%. Surely, that difference in load management isn’t the argument you’re trying to hold onto... Each player has one low minutes outlier in their top 5 seasons. But Duncan was playing big minutes in his prime before Pop started to “manage his load” later in his career. The difference between the two is not about load management. The minutes played is similar. The games played is similar.

    As far as the teammates argument, funny you use that as part of your argument in favor of Duncan but only mention it in the Harden comparisons as a shot at Kobe as to why he had more team success. Hypocrite much, do you? Moreover, none of Duncan’s top five advanced statistics seasons are from 1997-2001, before he had the balance of talent that Spurs fans argue about with Parker and Ginobili all while he was playing 39-40 minutes a game. So the seasons he SHOULD have been destroying those advanced stats, way before load management, way before having a whole bunch of better teammates, he simply wasn’t.

    As you said in the initial post, this is objective reasoning. Objectively speaking, using YOUR advanced statistical analysis, YOUR logic, YOUR very model to prove Harden is the second best SG in NBA history, you have OBJECTIVELY proven Kevin Garnett was the better Power Forward than Tim Duncan.

    Cool. Good talk.

  6. #31
    Veteran Killakobe81's Avatar
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    It’s great that you like to add “yeah but” caveats for Duncan v Garnett, while not doing it previously for the Harden comparisons. That’s cool. Let’s go ahead and test your load management “caveat” and “better teammates” arguments as well.

    Those top five seasons for each player:

    KG 2004, 2005, 2003, 2006, 2008
    TD 2002, 2003, 2004, 2007, 2000

    Minutes played in those seasons:

    KG 39.4, 38.1, 40.5, 38.9, 32.8
    TD 40.6, 39.3, 36.6, 34.1, 38.9

    Games played in those seasons:

    KG 82, 82, 82, 76, 71
    TD 82, 81, 69, 80, 74

    In five seasons, 410 possible games, Duncan missed a total of 7 more games than KG in that time span. Less than 2%. Surely, that difference in load management isn’t the argument you’re trying to hold onto... Each player has one low minutes outlier in their top 5 seasons. But Duncan was playing big minutes in his prime before Pop started to “manage his load” later in his career. The difference between the two is not about load management. The minutes played is similar. The games played is similar.

    As far as the teammates argument, funny you use that as part of your argument in favor of Duncan but only mention it in the Harden comparisons as a shot at Kobe as to why he had more team success. Hypocrite much, do you? Moreover, none of Duncan’s top five advanced statistics seasons are from 1997-2001, before he had the balance of talent that Spurs fans argue about with Parker and Ginobili all while he was playing 39-40 minutes a game. So the seasons he SHOULD have been destroying those advanced stats, way before load management, way before having a whole bunch of better teammates, he simply wasn’t.

    As you said in the initial post, this is objective reasoning. Objectively speaking, using YOUR advanced statistical analysis, YOUR logic, YOUR very model to prove Harden is the second best SG in NBA history, you have OBJECTIVELY proven Kevin Garnett was the better Power Forward than Tim Duncan.

    Cool. Good talk.


    Watching you bully my boy Amb is hilarious.

  7. #32
    Drive for Five! ambchang's Avatar
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    It’s great that you like to add “yeah but” caveats for Duncan v Garnett, while not doing it previously for the Harden comparisons. That’s cool. Let’s go ahead and test your load management “caveat” and “better teammates” arguments as well.

    Those top five seasons for each player:

    KG 2004, 2005, 2003, 2006, 2008
    TD 2002, 2003, 2004, 2007, 2000

    Minutes played in those seasons:

    KG 39.4, 38.1, 40.5, 38.9, 32.8
    TD 40.6, 39.3, 36.6, 34.1, 38.9

    Games played in those seasons:

    KG 82, 82, 82, 76, 71
    TD 82, 81, 69, 80, 74

    In five seasons, 410 possible games, Duncan missed a total of 7 more games than KG in that time span. Less than 2%. Surely, that difference in load management isn’t the argument you’re trying to hold onto... Each player has one low minutes outlier in their top 5 seasons. But Duncan was playing big minutes in his prime before Pop started to “manage his load” later in his career. The difference between the two is not about load management. The minutes played is similar. The games played is similar.

    As far as the teammates argument, funny you use that as part of your argument in favor of Duncan but only mention it in the Harden comparisons as a shot at Kobe as to why he had more team success. Hypocrite much, do you? Moreover, none of Duncan’s top five advanced statistics seasons are from 1997-2001, before he had the balance of talent that Spurs fans argue about with Parker and Ginobili all while he was playing 39-40 minutes a game. So the seasons he SHOULD have been destroying those advanced stats, way before load management, way before having a whole bunch of better teammates, he simply wasn’t.

    As you said in the initial post, this is objective reasoning. Objectively speaking, using YOUR advanced statistical analysis, YOUR logic, YOUR very model to prove Harden is the second best SG in NBA history, you have OBJECTIVELY proven Kevin Garnett was the better Power Forward than Tim Duncan.

    Cool. Good talk.
    Have to say I am at least mildly disappointed in your response as I would expect more from you. You are right that the numbers do look so, but the teammates argument actually factor into the load management area, where each teammate would be taking on a heavier load at each time.

    During those heavy 4-down years, Duncan is with Garnett every step of the way, but those are still the days when Duncan's replacement was David Robinson where Garnett's was the Kandi man, where the impact on BPM and VORP takes place. I would imagine and expect you to know these things, and that they don't generally apply to the two guard discussions we are having.

    As for the Harden and Kobe comparison, teammates help with winning, just like how it helped Duncan and Garnett. However, Kobe's replacement wasn't Shaq, it was a different position, so the impact on BPM and VORP wasn't as important.

    You didn't get the analysis, logic or model at all, and it really is a disappointment.

    Additionally, Duncan had much better numbers long term than Garnett did if you look past 5 years. Again, I didn't do so for the two guard discussion because they didn't show any additional information.

  8. #33
    Corpus Christi Spurs Fan Phenomanul's Avatar
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    Reading the thread, I do see some of ambchang's points... In the overall picture however, each of the selected advance metrics that he used as the basis for his argument are heavily dependent on pace of game. Harden's numbers are greatly helped by D'Antoni's high-pace offense. More possessions? More rebounding chances. More fast-break bunnies. etc... all of which help those metrics. Drexler and Jordan played in the much slower 90's. Kobe, Wade and Gino's teams played at slightly faster paces. But Harden's teams (2015-2019) have all played at outlierishly-high game paces.

    Also, league rules have progressively favored perimeter players more each passing season - and Harden is the beneficiary of inflated offensive impact simply because of the ridiculous push to reward his flopping with FTs.

    Last but not least, Harden's playoff shortcomings are too much of a stain to be considered the "second best" ever SG.
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  9. #34
    I'll tumble for ya Chris Fall's Avatar
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    Lol ambchang

  10. #35
    Drive for Five! ambchang's Avatar
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    Jammie, I admire that you try to stir shit up, but you are too smart to not see the differences In the comparisons between the SGs and the PFs. As Cully would say, “don’t be purposely obtuse”

  11. #36
    Drive for Five! ambchang's Avatar
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    Reading the thread, I do see some of ambchang's points... In the overall picture however, each of the selected advance metrics that he used as the basis for his argument are heavily dependent on pace of game. Harden's numbers are greatly helped by D'Antoni's high-pace offense. More possessions? More rebounding chances. More fast-break bunnies. etc... all of which help those metrics. Drexler and Jordan played in the much slower 90's. Kobe, Wade and Gino's teams played at slightly faster paces. But Harden's teams (2015-2019) have all played at outlierishly-high game paces.

    Also, league rules have progressively favored perimeter players more each passing season - and Harden is the beneficiary of inflated offensive impact simply because of the ridiculous push to reward his flopping with FTs.

    Last but not least, Harden's playoff shortcomings are too much of a stain to be considered the "second best" ever SG.
    I can actually see the change inrules angle.

    Those advanced metrics factors in pace though.

  12. #37
    Groundhog Day TDfan2007's Avatar
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    Kobe's 2001 postseason run is more impressive than anything Harden has done in his career. Not to mention the fact that Kobe played in a more difficult defensive era and won championships in two different decades and two completely different teams.

    If you amend your statement to say that Harden is the 2nd greatest regular season SG of all time, then I'd be more open to agreeing with you.

    The Garnett-Duncan comparisons are appropriate here in highlighting the flaw in your argument. Garnett was a regular season stat stuffer who regularly ranked ahead of Timmy in raw starts, fantasy value, etc, but when the bright lights off the postseason came, he rarely stepped up (Timmy consistently stepped up his game in the playoffs regardless of his teammates other than 2004 and 2008). Harden is the same type of guy.

  13. #38
    Veteran Killakobe81's Avatar
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    Jammie, I admire that you try to stir shit up, but you are too smart to not see the differences In the comparisons between the SGs and the PFs. As Cully would say, “don’t be purposely obtuse”
    Jam disagreeing does not mean he does not underdtand.

  14. #39
    Veteran Arcadian's Avatar
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    Timmy consistently stepped up his game in the playoffs regardless of his teammates other than 2004 and 2008
    Two of his most epic moments were in '04 and '08.




  15. #40
    Drive for Five! ambchang's Avatar
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    Jam disagreeing does not mean he does not underdtand.
    I actually think he understands how the advanced stats work, but just acts like he doesn't for the sake of argument.

    Harden's post season failures has to do with him, but more to the makeup of the team. If he had the best frontline in the league, he'd be able to win it all. He made Capella a near-max guy for Pete's sake.

  16. #41
    VanillaPlayerFan BD24's Avatar
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    AMB still in here getting dunked on I see

  17. #42
    Groundhog Day TDfan2007's Avatar
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    Two of his most epic moments were in '04 and '08.



    Yeah, but overall he was subpar in 04 in the Lakers series in games 3, 4, and 6. He shot poorly, gave into the double teams, and was too unselfish, especially in game 6. He just kept passing out even when the rest of the teams percentage was in the 20s

    In 2008, he was great against the Suns, but subpar against the hornets and Lakers. He wasn't bad, just not up to his own standards.

  18. #43
    I'll tumble for ya Chris Fall's Avatar
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    I will make my arguments based on numbers, and some accolades...

    Conclusion:
    Looking at this objectively, just from individual accomplishment's perspective...
    Please amend your original post to include but not limited to... your personal and subjective manipulation of other factors you previously disregarded once you are confronted with a conclusion you are ill prepared to defend as a result of your own attempt at a troll job. Thusly, you will add those factors into an argument and explanation to try to defend the initial argument while debating the aforementioned conclusion you were unknowingly going to have to address. Additionally, please adjust the aforementioned terms “based on numbers” and “objectively” to include “except in scenarios where I don’t like the conclusion.”

    Lastly, a fine print caveat should also be added to state that if those amendments do not sufficiently distract readers from your bullshit argument, you are free to also try to shame posters with opposing viewpoints and/or who draw conclusions not to your liking with claims that you are “disappointed” with them.

    Yeah, that about should cover your bare ass.

  19. #44
    Drive for Five! ambchang's Avatar
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    AMB still in here getting dunked on I see
    I didn’t expect you to be smart enough to follow.

    I did expect you to be dumb enough to side on the wrong side though.

  20. #45
    VanillaPlayerFan BD24's Avatar
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    I didn’t expect you to be smart enough to follow.

    I did expect you to be dumb enough to side on the wrong side though.

  21. #46
    Drive for Five! ambchang's Avatar
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    Please amend your original post to include but not limited to... your personal and subjective manipulation of other factors you previously disregarded once you are confronted with a conclusion you are ill prepared to defend as a result of your own attempt at a troll job. Thusly, you will add those factors into an argument and explanation to try to defend the initial argument while debating the aforementioned conclusion you were unknowingly going to have to address. Additionally, please adjust the aforementioned terms “based on numbers” and “objectively” to include “except in scenarios where I don’t like the conclusion.”

    Lastly, a fine print caveat should also be added to state that if those amendments do not sufficiently distract readers from your bullshit argument, you are free to also try to shame posters with opposing viewpoints and/or who draw conclusions not to your liking with claims that you are “disappointed” with them.

    Yeah, that about should cover your bare ass.
    Those weren’t subjective. It’s how to read the numbers. Since it wasn’t relevant in the original comparison, I didn’t elaborate. But since you wanted to include a totally different comparison which led to the relevance of the explanations, I did.

  22. #47
    Veteran Killakobe81's Avatar
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    Please amend your original post to include but not limited to... your personal and subjective manipulation of other factors you previously disregarded once you are confronted with a conclusion you are ill prepared to defend as a result of your own attempt at a troll job. Thusly, you will add those factors into an argument and explanation to try to defend the initial argument while debating the aforementioned conclusion you were unknowingly going to have to address. Additionally, please adjust the aforementioned terms “based on numbers” and “objectively” to include “except in scenarios where I don’t like the conclusion.”

    Lastly, a fine print caveat should also be added to state that if those amendments do not sufficiently distract readers from your bullshit argument, you are free to also try to shame posters with opposing viewpoints and/or who draw conclusions not to your liking with claims that you are “disappointed” with them.

    Yeah, that about should cover your bare ass.

  23. #48
    Veteran cobbler's Avatar
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    Checking in after another year or so. Nothing has changed around here. Ambchang still OBSESSED and spending inordinate amounts of time "trying" to troll Kobe and taking it on the chin from Chris Fall in the process. And as usual, even fellow Spurs fans are mocking and laughing at the OP's absurdity. Same ole same ole...

    Good luck on the upcoming season! See ya at the end of it or in other words in roughly 50 ambchang Kobe obsessed posts later in time. LOL

  24. #49
    Drive for Five! ambchang's Avatar
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    Checking in after another year or so. Nothing has changed around here. Ambchang still OBSESSED and spending inordinate amounts of time "trying" to troll Kobe and taking it on the chin from Chris Fall in the process. And as usual, even fellow Spurs fans are mocking and laughing at the OP's absurdity. Same ole same ole...

    Good luck on the upcoming season! See ya at the end of it or in other words in roughly 50 ambchang Kobe obsessed posts later in time. LOL
    Are you still hobbled after a year?

  25. #50
    🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆 ElNono's Avatar
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    Checking in after another year or so. Nothing has changed around here. Ambchang still OBSESSED and spending inordinate amounts of time "trying" to troll Kobe and taking it on the chin from Chris Fall in the process. And as usual, even fellow Spurs fans are mocking and laughing at the OP's absurdity. Same ole same ole...

    Good luck on the upcoming season! See ya at the end of it or in other words in roughly 50 ambchang Kobe obsessed posts later in time. LOL
    The good ole' hobbler hit and ruuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuunnnnnnnnnnnnnn nn.....

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