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  1. #1
    Drive for Five! ambchang's Avatar
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    We all know DK is the best, no matter how much you hate him as a person, he is clearly the GOAT SG, and widely considered THE GOAT.

    However, when it comes to the second greatest SG of all time (SGOAT SG), a few names always shows up:

    Kobe
    Wade
    West
    Drexler

    I am here to say Harden is now the SGOAT

    Where Harden falls short is team success, but of course, team success is due to the team. Harden isn't easy to build around, but that is true for all SGs. Jordan wasn't easy to build around either, it's not like you can get a Pippen from a garbage dump any time.

    I will make my arguments based on numbers, and some accolades, starting with, imo, the most commonly agreed to SGOAT to the least amongst the four I have mentioned above.

    Note that Harden is still entering his absolute prime, so we are likely to see a few more seasons like the last three)

    But first, let's look at Harden's arguments:
    Accolades - 1 MVP, 1 6MoY, finishing first or second in MVPs 4 seasons
    WS - 16.4, 15.4, 15.2, 15.0, 13.3 (led league 4 times)
    BPM - 11.7, 10.9, 10.1, 8.4, 6.7 (led league twice)
    VORP - 9.9, 8.3, 9.0, 7.8, 6.9 (led league once)
    Stats of note - 36.1 ppg in one season (led league twice), averaged over 25ppg 5 times (in 10 seasons), 8.1 rpg in one season, 5.5 over career. 11.1 assists in one season (leading the league), averaged over 7apg 3 times

    Kobe:
    Major accolades - 1 MVP (finished 1st or 2nd twice), 2 FMVPs, 5 rings
    WS (top 5 seasons) - 15.3, 14.9, 12.7, 11.3, 10.7, led the league 0 times (Harden's 3rd best season is as good as Kobe's best, Harden's 5th best is better than Kobe's 3rd best).
    BPM (top 5 seasons) - 6.4, 5.8, 5.7 ,5.4, 5.3 (led league 0 times). Let's just skip this, I didn't realize this is this bad until I looked it up
    VORP (top 5 seasons) - 7.1, 6.5, 6.0, 5.3, 5.1 (led league 0 times). Kobe's best season is closer to Harden's 5th best than 4th best. Again, I didn't realize this is that lopsided.
    Stats of note - 35.4ppg in one season (led league twice), averaged over 25ppg 12 times in 20 years). 6.9 RPG in one season, 5.2 over career, 6.3 apg i one season, averaged over 7 apg in 0 seasons.

    Other than the two finals MVP, this is a bloodbath in Harden's favour.

    Wade:
    Major accolades - 0 MVPs (finished 1st or 2nd 0 times), 1 FMVP, 3 rings
    WS (top 5 seasons) - 14.7,14.4,13.0,12.8,11.0, led the league 0 times (Harden's 4th best > Wade's best).
    BPM (top 5 seasons) - 10.7,9.4, 8.4, 7.5 ,6.3 (led league once). This is clearly in favour of Harden, but the difference isn't night and day like it was against Kobe.
    VORP (top 5 seasons) - 9.7, 8.0, 7.0, 5.7, 5.1 (led league 0 times). Similar to BPM, but Harden clearly has the edge here
    Stats of note - 30.2 ppg in one season (led league once), averaged over 25ppg 5 times in 17 years). 6.4 RPG in one season, 4.7 over career, 7.5 apg i one season, averaged over 7 apg in 2 seasons.

    Harden's is just a better version of Wade. But again, it comes down to rings. But I guess having Shaq and Lebron as your teammates shouldn't make you a better player.

    West:
    Major accolades - 0 MVPs (finished 1st or 2nd 4 times), 1 FMVP, 1 ring
    WS (top 5 seasons) - 17.1, 16.7, 15.2, 14.0, 13.3, led the league once (Very similar to Harden's numbers, but slightly better throughout. However, it should be noted that WS calculations are different during West's days).
    BPM (top 5 seasons) - NA back then.
    VORP (top 5 seasons) - NA back then.
    Stats of note - 31.3 ppg in one season (led league once), averaged over 25ppg 11 times in 14 years). 7.9 RPG in one season, 5.8 over career, 9.7 apg in one season (led league once), averaged over 7 apg in 4 seasons.

    West's numbers are surprisingly good, but he was the ultimate bridesmaid, always going to the finals and losing, and finished 2nd in MVP voting 4 times. This is what happens when you live in the days of Russell and Wilt. Another casualty of team than individual brilliance.

    Glide:
    Major accolades - 0 MVPs (finished 1st or 2nd once), 0 FMVPs, 1 ring
    WS (top 5 seasons) - 13.2, 12.8, 12.6, 12.4, 11.7, led the league 0 times (Harden's 5th best > Glide's best).
    BPM (top 5 seasons) - 8.4, 7.9, 7.4, 7.3, 7.3 (led league 0 times). Drexler actually sits between Wade and Kobe on this one. But he is so far off from Harden.
    VORP (top 5 seasons) - 7.3, 7.2, 7.2, 6.7, 6.6 (led league 0 times). Once again, Drexler is another Kobe in this area. Clyde is slightly better than Kobe, but can't compare to the other 3.
    Stats of note - 27.2 ppg in one season (led league 0 times), averaged over 25ppg 3 times in 16 years). 7.9 RPG in one season, 6.1 over career, 8.0 apg in one season, averaged over 7 apg in 1 season.

    Drexler is one of my favourite non-spurs player ever, but objectively speaking, he just can't measure up. He can have a case as the best rebounder of the bunch, but even that is debatable.

    Conclusion:
    Looking at this objectively, just from individual accomplishment's perspective, it is pretty clear Harden is the SGOAT, and these five players should be ranked.

    Harden
    West
    Wade
    Kobe
    Drexler

    If you want look strictly at team accomplishments, then Kobe, being a 2nd banana to Shaq and then having MVPau+Odom+Bynum is clearly the best.
    _____________________________

  2. #2
    near awake, semi-coherent
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    Hum.... What about Stockton? I could see a pretty good case for putting Kidd fairly high up on the pg list. Not a fan of a no defense few assists guy being called goat pg....

  3. #3
    Believe.
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    Hum.... What about Stockton? I could see a pretty good case for putting Kidd fairly high up on the pg list. Not a fan of a no defense few assists guy being called goat pg....
    Looks like wrong title. In his post he compares SGs.

  4. #4
    Drive for Five! ambchang's Avatar
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    My bad, meant SG.

    I'd say Harden would be one of the best PG of all time based on numbers as well. After Magic, probably only Curry compares.

  5. #5
    Veteran Killakobe81's Avatar
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    We all know DK is the best, no matter how much you hate him as a person, he is clearly the GOAT SG, and widely considered THE GOAT.

    However, when it comes to the second greatest SG of all time (SGOAT SG), a few names always shows up:

    Kobe
    Wade
    West
    Drexler

    I am here to say Harden is now the SGOAT

    Where Harden falls short is team success, but of course, team success is due to the team. Harden isn't easy to build around, but that is true for all SGs. Jordan wasn't easy to build around either, it's not like you can get a Pippen from a garbage dump any time.

    I will make my arguments based on numbers, and some accolades, starting with, imo, the most commonly agreed to SGOAT to the least amongst the four I have mentioned above.

    Note that Harden is still entering his absolute prime, so we are likely to see a few more seasons like the last three)

    But first, let's look at Harden's arguments:
    Accolades - 1 MVP, 1 6MoY, finishing first or second in MVPs 4 seasons
    WS - 16.4, 15.4, 15.2, 15.0, 13.3 (led league 4 times)
    BPM - 11.7, 10.9, 10.1, 8.4, 6.7 (led league twice)
    VORP - 9.9, 8.3, 9.0, 7.8, 6.9 (led league once)
    Stats of note - 36.1 ppg in one season (led league twice), averaged over 25ppg 5 times (in 10 seasons), 8.1 rpg in one season, 5.5 over career. 11.1 assists in one season (leading the league), averaged over 7apg 3 times

    Kobe:
    Major accolades - 1 MVP (finished 1st or 2nd twice), 2 FMVPs, 5 rings
    WS (top 5 seasons) - 15.3, 14.9, 12.7, 11.3, 10.7, led the league 0 times (Harden's 3rd best season is as good as Kobe's best, Harden's 5th best is better than Kobe's 3rd best).
    BPM (top 5 seasons) - 6.4, 5.8, 5.7 ,5.4, 5.3 (led league 0 times). Let's just skip this, I didn't realize this is this bad until I looked it up
    VORP (top 5 seasons) - 7.1, 6.5, 6.0, 5.3, 5.1 (led league 0 times). Kobe's best season is closer to Harden's 5th best than 4th best. Again, I didn't realize this is that lopsided.
    Stats of note - 35.4ppg in one season (led league twice), averaged over 25ppg 12 times in 20 years). 6.9 RPG in one season, 5.2 over career, 6.3 apg i one season, averaged over 7 apg in 0 seasons.

    Other than the two finals MVP, this is a bloodbath in Harden's favour.

    Wade:
    Major accolades - 0 MVPs (finished 1st or 2nd 0 times), 1 FMVP, 3 rings
    WS (top 5 seasons) - 14.7,14.4,13.0,12.8,11.0, led the league 0 times (Harden's 4th best > Wade's best).
    BPM (top 5 seasons) - 10.7,9.4, 8.4, 7.5 ,6.3 (led league once). This is clearly in favour of Harden, but the difference isn't night and day like it was against Kobe.
    VORP (top 5 seasons) - 9.7, 8.0, 7.0, 5.7, 5.1 (led league 0 times). Similar to BPM, but Harden clearly has the edge here
    Stats of note - 30.2 ppg in one season (led league once), averaged over 25ppg 5 times in 17 years). 6.4 RPG in one season, 4.7 over career, 7.5 apg i one season, averaged over 7 apg in 2 seasons.

    Harden's is just a better version of Wade. But again, it comes down to rings. But I guess having Shaq and Lebron as your teammates shouldn't make you a better player.

    West:
    Major accolades - 0 MVPs (finished 1st or 2nd 4 times), 1 FMVP, 1 ring
    WS (top 5 seasons) - 17.1, 16.7, 15.2, 14.0, 13.3, led the league once (Very similar to Harden's numbers, but slightly better throughout. However, it should be noted that WS calculations are different during West's days).
    BPM (top 5 seasons) - NA back then.
    VORP (top 5 seasons) - NA back then.
    Stats of note - 31.3 ppg in one season (led league once), averaged over 25ppg 11 times in 14 years). 7.9 RPG in one season, 5.8 over career, 9.7 apg in one season (led league once), averaged over 7 apg in 4 seasons.

    West's numbers are surprisingly good, but he was the ultimate bridesmaid, always going to the finals and losing, and finished 2nd in MVP voting 4 times. This is what happens when you live in the days of Russell and Wilt. Another casualty of team than individual brilliance.

    Glide:
    Major accolades - 0 MVPs (finished 1st or 2nd once), 0 FMVPs, 1 ring
    WS (top 5 seasons) - 13.2, 12.8, 12.6, 12.4, 11.7, led the league 0 times (Harden's 5th best > Glide's best).
    BPM (top 5 seasons) - 8.4, 7.9, 7.4, 7.3, 7.3 (led league 0 times). Drexler actually sits between Wade and Kobe on this one. But he is so far off from Harden.
    VORP (top 5 seasons) - 7.3, 7.2, 7.2, 6.7, 6.6 (led league 0 times). Once again, Drexler is another Kobe in this area. Clyde is slightly better than Kobe, but can't compare to the other 3.
    Stats of note - 27.2 ppg in one season (led league 0 times), averaged over 25ppg 3 times in 16 years). 7.9 RPG in one season, 6.1 over career, 8.0 apg in one season, averaged over 7 apg in 1 season.

    Drexler is one of my favourite non-spurs player ever, but objectively speaking, he just can't measure up. He can have a case as the best rebounder of the bunch, but even that is debatable.

    Conclusion:
    Looking at this objectively, just from individual accomplishment's perspective, it is pretty clear Harden is the SGOAT, and these five players should be ranked.

    Harden
    West
    Wade
    Kobe
    Drexler

    If you want look strictly at team accomplishments, then Kobe, being a 2nd banana to Shaq and then having MVPau+Odom+Bynum is clearly the best.
    LOL PG?!
    _____________________________



  6. #6
    Veteran Killakobe81's Avatar
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    And obvious is obvious..

  7. #7
    Veteran DMC's Avatar
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    eh no. You could use a slide rule to find your ass but that doesn't mean you're not clueless.

  8. #8
    Drive for Five! ambchang's Avatar
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    Wouldn’t mind some counter arguments.

    Gee you guys are sensitive.

  9. #9
    LONG LIVE THE CHIEF lefty's Avatar
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    Harden would have destroyed Jordan tbh

  10. #10
    4X ST MVP Spurtacular's Avatar
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    Calling DK a PG is sketchy to me.

  11. #11
    Veteran Killakobe81's Avatar
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    Calling DK a PG is sketchy to me.

  12. #12
    Veteran J_Paco's Avatar
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    This is a beyond stupid thread. Harden isn't even better than Wade or Drexler. Bump this when he wins a title or at least makes the NBA Finals (Wade made it 4 times and Drexler 3◊) as the #1 or #2 option.
    _____________________________
    Once again, the Blazers brass and their support staff engaging their favorite past-time - staring over into the urinal and comparing penis sizes with the rest of the NBA teams. - SenorSpur

    The future is now.................



    Shay Laren is her name, alright..... LOLOLOLOLOL




  13. #13
    Timmeehh TimmyBuckets's Avatar
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    OP this is a lot of work for a failed troll attempt. Gotta admire your effort though.

  14. #14
    Veteran Killakobe81's Avatar
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    OP this is a lot of work for a failed troll attempt. Gotta admire your effort though.

  15. #15
    Drive for Five! ambchang's Avatar
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    This is a beyond stupid thread. Harden isn't even better than Wade or Drexler. Bump this when he wins a title or at least makes the NBA Finals (Wade made it 4 times and Drexler 3◊) as the #1 or #2 option.
    Not this stupidity again. It’s not like harden couldn’t make it to the playoffs, his team couldn’t go to the finals due to competition or his teams makeup. Nobody would ever say Dennis Johnson is better than Stockton or kidd because he led the sonics to two finals winning one.

  16. #16
    Drive for Five! ambchang's Avatar
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    OP this is a lot of work for a failed troll attempt. Gotta admire your effort though.
    You guys just canít handle this.

    Iíll admit it, I was shocked seeing the results. But the numbers have spoken, harden is the second best sg of all time.

  17. #17
    Veteran J_Paco's Avatar
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    Not this stupidity again. It’s not like harden couldn’t make it to the playoffs, his team couldn’t go to the finals due to competition or his teams makeup. Nobody would ever say Dennis Johnson is better than Stockton or kidd because he led the sonics to two finals winning one.
    No one in their right mind ever compares Dennis Johnson (a great defensive PG) w/ Kidd or Stockton. Harden's inability to win "the big one" is a crucial part of his legacy. Drexler, Wade and Bryant all made multiple times with teams of different make up and teammates of varying ability.

    Harden is a great iso scorer, passer and a solid rebounder, but he's been a net negative on defense throughout his time in Houston and has "choked" in big moments in the playoffs (even in his lone appearance in the Finals).

  18. #18
    I'll tumble for ya Chris Fall's Avatar
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    Heavily relying on WS and BPM and VORP and then further parsing through and nitpicking the conveniently random top five seasons in each advanced stat was a nice touch. Just as an aside, I suggest you do the same advanced stat comparison between Tim Duncan and Kevin Garnett to finally decide who was the better player between those two. Your findings should also really clear things up for Spurs fan convincingly... and objectively, of course.

    Oops.

  19. #19
    Veteran SpursforSix's Avatar
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    Since the parameters seem to be pretty loose, I'll throw Barry Sanders out there.

  20. #20
    Veteran SpursforSix's Avatar
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    Also, Takis or Flamin Hot Cheetos.

  21. #21
    Veteran SpursforSix's Avatar
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    Shawshank Redemption.
    Training Day.
    The Office.
    Breaking Bad.

    All these are in contention.

  22. #22
    Veteran Arcadian's Avatar
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    Major strikes against Harden:
    -His game is largely predicated on drawing borderline fouls, i.e. fooling the refs into giving him free throws
    -Known playoff choker; not very good in pressure situations because he is very predictable (stepback 3, flailing arms for a foul)
    -Merely a "one-way" player - while he might be capable of playing some defense when he tries, often his effort on that end is terrible

    I'd take Bryant and Wade over him for sure. Not only that, I also rank Allen Iverson and Tracy McGrady above Harden. Prime McGrady is still the best Rockets guard of all time.



    Rejected by a 39-year-old man
    Last edited by Arcadian; 09-03-2019 at 04:46 PM.

  23. #23
    Veteran Killakobe81's Avatar
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    You guys just canít handle this.

    Iíll admit it, I was shocked seeing the results. But the numbers have spoken, harden is the second best sg of all time.
    I think it's great you spent that much time on such a winning argument! I don't care about Achilles standing this is, not 2010... You enjoy yourself. No Lakers fan or Kobe Stan even gonna waste time on obvious troll. And even if true, who cares?
    I just enjoyed you getting bullied by fellow Spur fans.
    Last edited by Killakobe81; 09-03-2019 at 04:57 PM.

  24. #24
    The Good Doctor Rummpd's Avatar
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    Harden is not top five SG all time /chokes in playoffs and is still a defensive liability. Flop is overrated

  25. #25
    Drive for Five! ambchang's Avatar
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    I think it's great you spent that much time on such a winning argument! I don't care about Achilles standing this is, not 2010... You enjoy yourself. No Lakers fan or Kobe Stan even gonna waste time on obvious troll. And even if true, who cares?
    I just enjoyed you getting bullied by fellow Spur fans.
    It’s sad people can’t see the forest from the trees.

    Harden is a generational player, despite his obvious flaws.

    I hate his game but he gets results. You put Him in place of Durant and he gets those b2b.

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