Page 3 of 3 FirstFirst 123
Results 51 to 64 of 64
  1. #51
    Work in Progress Fireball's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Post Count
    8,937
    who is DK?

  2. #52
    Veteran Arcadian's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Post Count
    9,265
    Michael Jordan. Some dumbass on this forum started calling him "dad killer" at some point.

  3. #53
    Drive for Five! ambchang's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Post Count
    16,977
    Second best scorer in the three point era as well

    https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/...scorer-nba-era

    Only Wilt in the pre-three point era.

    Great SG and PG.

  4. #54
    Veteran LkrFan's Avatar
    My Team
    Los Angeles Lakers
    Post Count
    39,573
    We all know DK is the best, no matter how much you hate him as a person, he is clearly the GOAT SG, and widely considered THE GOAT.

    However, when it comes to the second greatest SG of all time (SGOAT SG), a few names always shows up:

    Kobe
    Wade
    West
    Drexler

    I am here to say Harden is now the SGOAT

    Where Harden falls short is team success, but of course, team success is due to the team. Harden isn't easy to build around, but that is true for all SGs. Jordan wasn't easy to build around either, it's not like you can get a Pippen from a garbage dump any time.

    I will make my arguments based on numbers, and some accolades, starting with, imo, the most commonly agreed to SGOAT to the least amongst the four I have mentioned above.

    Note that Harden is still entering his absolute prime, so we are likely to see a few more seasons like the last three)

    But first, let's look at Harden's arguments:
    Accolades - 1 MVP, 1 6MoY, finishing first or second in MVPs 4 seasons
    WS - 16.4, 15.4, 15.2, 15.0, 13.3 (led league 4 times)
    BPM - 11.7, 10.9, 10.1, 8.4, 6.7 (led league twice)
    VORP - 9.9, 8.3, 9.0, 7.8, 6.9 (led league once)
    Stats of note - 36.1 ppg in one season (led league twice), averaged over 25ppg 5 times (in 10 seasons), 8.1 rpg in one season, 5.5 over career. 11.1 assists in one season (leading the league), averaged over 7apg 3 times

    Kobe:
    Major accolades - 1 MVP (finished 1st or 2nd twice), 2 FMVPs, 5 rings
    WS (top 5 seasons) - 15.3, 14.9, 12.7, 11.3, 10.7, led the league 0 times (Harden's 3rd best season is as good as Kobe's best, Harden's 5th best is better than Kobe's 3rd best).
    BPM (top 5 seasons) - 6.4, 5.8, 5.7 ,5.4, 5.3 (led league 0 times). Let's just skip this, I didn't realize this is this bad until I looked it up
    VORP (top 5 seasons) - 7.1, 6.5, 6.0, 5.3, 5.1 (led league 0 times). Kobe's best season is closer to Harden's 5th best than 4th best. Again, I didn't realize this is that lopsided.
    Stats of note - 35.4ppg in one season (led league twice), averaged over 25ppg 12 times in 20 years). 6.9 RPG in one season, 5.2 over career, 6.3 apg i one season, averaged over 7 apg in 0 seasons.

    Other than the two finals MVP, this is a bloodbath in Harden's favour.

    Wade:
    Major accolades - 0 MVPs (finished 1st or 2nd 0 times), 1 FMVP, 3 rings
    WS (top 5 seasons) - 14.7,14.4,13.0,12.8,11.0, led the league 0 times (Harden's 4th best > Wade's best).
    BPM (top 5 seasons) - 10.7,9.4, 8.4, 7.5 ,6.3 (led league once). This is clearly in favour of Harden, but the difference isn't night and day like it was against Kobe.
    VORP (top 5 seasons) - 9.7, 8.0, 7.0, 5.7, 5.1 (led league 0 times). Similar to BPM, but Harden clearly has the edge here
    Stats of note - 30.2 ppg in one season (led league once), averaged over 25ppg 5 times in 17 years). 6.4 RPG in one season, 4.7 over career, 7.5 apg i one season, averaged over 7 apg in 2 seasons.

    Harden's is just a better version of Wade. But again, it comes down to rings. But I guess having Shaq and Lebron as your teammates shouldn't make you a better player.

    West:
    Major accolades - 0 MVPs (finished 1st or 2nd 4 times), 1 FMVP, 1 ring
    WS (top 5 seasons) - 17.1, 16.7, 15.2, 14.0, 13.3, led the league once (Very similar to Harden's numbers, but slightly better throughout. However, it should be noted that WS calculations are different during West's days).
    BPM (top 5 seasons) - NA back then.
    VORP (top 5 seasons) - NA back then.
    Stats of note - 31.3 ppg in one season (led league once), averaged over 25ppg 11 times in 14 years). 7.9 RPG in one season, 5.8 over career, 9.7 apg in one season (led league once), averaged over 7 apg in 4 seasons.

    West's numbers are surprisingly good, but he was the ultimate bridesmaid, always going to the finals and losing, and finished 2nd in MVP voting 4 times. This is what happens when you live in the days of Russell and Wilt. Another casualty of team than individual brilliance.

    Glide:
    Major accolades - 0 MVPs (finished 1st or 2nd once), 0 FMVPs, 1 ring
    WS (top 5 seasons) - 13.2, 12.8, 12.6, 12.4, 11.7, led the league 0 times (Harden's 5th best > Glide's best).
    BPM (top 5 seasons) - 8.4, 7.9, 7.4, 7.3, 7.3 (led league 0 times). Drexler actually sits between Wade and Kobe on this one. But he is so far off from Harden.
    VORP (top 5 seasons) - 7.3, 7.2, 7.2, 6.7, 6.6 (led league 0 times). Once again, Drexler is another Kobe in this area. Clyde is slightly better than Kobe, but can't compare to the other 3.
    Stats of note - 27.2 ppg in one season (led league 0 times), averaged over 25ppg 3 times in 16 years). 7.9 RPG in one season, 6.1 over career, 8.0 apg in one season, averaged over 7 apg in 1 season.

    Drexler is one of my favourite non-spurs player ever, but objectively speaking, he just can't measure up. He can have a case as the best rebounder of the bunch, but even that is debatable.

    Conclusion:
    Looking at this objectively, just from individual accomplishment's perspective, it is pretty clear Harden is the SGOAT, and these five players should be ranked.

    Harden
    West
    Wade
    Kobe
    Drexler

    If you want look strictly at team accomplishments, then Kobe, being a 2nd banana to Shaq and then having MVPau+Odom+Bynum is clearly the best.

  5. #55
    Got Woke? DMC's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Post Count
    90,829
    Ambchang not understanding the concept that greatness is about big moments, times in which Harden fell to his knees and needed people like a TOSB JSmoove and a TOSB Jet to bail him out. You don't get to enter "best" discussions when you have gone through so many mid to top tier players on your roster and never sniffed the Finals because you the bed in the big series.

    On the flip side, Lebron makes every team he's been on an instant contender, as long as he's healthy and has some talent alongside him. Of course, the Lakers have a history of being overloaded with the league's best talent so of course they'll pull the best tier 1 players in the game and stack. Harden will never be that guy though, not as a 1st option.

  6. #56
    Drive for Five! ambchang's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Post Count
    16,977
    He’s just missing his shaq.

  7. #57
    Got Woke? DMC's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Post Count
    90,829
    He’s just missing his shaq.
    He had Howard, Carmelo, CP3 and Westbrook. Please stop saying he needs more talent around him. More people watching him shoot freethrows isn't going to change their fortune. Without Klay and Steph on the team, their all or nothing chuckfest will mostly be nothing.

  8. #58
    Drive for Five! ambchang's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Post Count
    16,977
    He had Howard, Carmelo, CP3 and Westbrook. Please stop saying he needs more talent around him. More people watching him shoot freethrows isn't going to change their fortune. Without Klay and Steph on the team, their all or nothing chuckfest will mostly be nothing.
    None of those are close to shaq.

  9. #59
    Groundhog Day TDfan2007's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Post Count
    8,091
    Every great player in history has failed at some point on the big stage, but other than Karl Malone, I can't think of anyone who has failed as often and spectacularly as Harden.

    Regular season Harden is in the goat conversation for perimeter players. Playoffs Harden is just another dude...

  10. #60
    Groundhog Day TDfan2007's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Post Count
    8,091
    None of those are close to shaq.
    Kobe obliterated our Spurs in 2008 without Shaq, tbh...that feat alone is more impressive than anything Harden has done in the playoffs.

    And before you bring up Pau, yes, he had Pau. After Pau, that Lakers team had Odom and a bunch of journeymen (Bynum was hurt in 08).

  11. #61
    Veteran Killakobe81's Avatar
    My Team
    Los Angeles Lakers
    Post Count
    36,551
    I like Amb but he is so full of on this one.
    This is akin to someone using Malone's regular season stats/numbers/analytics to argue Karl over Tim.

    But Amb being Amb he never admits when he is wrong. He picks and chooses the metrics that suit his argument and anytime he is proven wrong will talk in circles until the other side gives up. He is the filibuster of Spurstalk.

    Harden is a great scorer one of the best iso scorers in NBA history. But still a flopper stat padder choker overrated and not the 2nd best SG.

  12. #62
    Groundhog Day TDfan2007's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Post Count
    8,091
    I like Amb but he is so full of on this one.
    This is akin to someone using Malone's regular season stats/numbers/analytics to argue Karl over Tim.

    But Amb being Amb he never admits when he is wrong. He picks and chooses the metrics that suit his argument and anytime he is proven wrong will talk in circles until the other side gives up. He is the filibuster of Spurstalk.

    Harden is a great scorer one of the best iso scorers in NBA history. But still a flopper stat padder choker overrated and not the 2nd best SG.
    This..all of it. Can we close this idiotic thread now?

  13. #63
    Drive for Five! ambchang's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Post Count
    16,977
    Kobe obliterated our Spurs in 2008 without Shaq, tbh...that feat alone is more impressive than anything Harden has done in the playoffs.

    And before you bring up Pau, yes, he had Pau. After Pau, that Lakers team had Odom and a bunch of journeymen (Bynum was hurt in 08).
    And then got outplayed by Pierce the next round.

    Harden had some nice series too.

  14. #64
    Drive for Five! ambchang's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Post Count
    16,977
    I like Amb but he is so full of on this one.
    This is akin to someone using Malone's regular season stats/numbers/analytics to argue Karl over Tim.

    But Amb being Amb he never admits when he is wrong. He picks and chooses the metrics that suit his argument and anytime he is proven wrong will talk in circles until the other side gives up. He is the filibuster of Spurstalk.

    Harden is a great scorer one of the best iso scorers in NBA history. But still a flopper stat padder choker overrated and not the 2nd best SG.
    Actually not disagreeing with most of your points. Original point still stands.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •